Man After My Own Heart ... The Future Isn't Electric
Discussion
cardigankid said:
There is no coherent argument for EV other than as a city taxi or runabout.
So by this comment (/voice of clear EV experience), my journey on Saturday, with the whole family in the Model 3, and in reverse a week later won't work out for us.... interesting, given this is the fourth time we've done it.....
While EVs in their current guise might not work for everyone, for 90% of people the product is already good enough but not yet affordable. The phone analogy was terrible; would you consider buying a model T Ford now as a daily? or an old Nokia? Maybe you've still got a CRT TV in your house because HDMI won't catch on?
Edited by dbs2000 on Thursday 28th April 08:25
Firstly I love ICE but know EV is coming. How do I know? Well it isn't Govts trying to secure votes with false promises and blinkered thimking.
In around 2007 the then Govt set up the Automotive Leadership Council. They produced a technology roadmap based on the investment needed, available tech and.potential market demand. You can still find this roadmap via Google.
To this date the development of green vehicles has followed it almost exactly. The only bit that hasn't been true is that PHEV played a much bigger part and the concensus from auto manufacturers is they still should. The PHEV suggested were EV with on board optimised generators not the Lexus 4 litre V8 with a PP3 taped on!
Like the phone analogy above you have to take small steps to gain acceptance and a jump to full EV with all the compromises they need will cause market havoc...oh and there aren't enough batteries to go round...
In around 2007 the then Govt set up the Automotive Leadership Council. They produced a technology roadmap based on the investment needed, available tech and.potential market demand. You can still find this roadmap via Google.
To this date the development of green vehicles has followed it almost exactly. The only bit that hasn't been true is that PHEV played a much bigger part and the concensus from auto manufacturers is they still should. The PHEV suggested were EV with on board optimised generators not the Lexus 4 litre V8 with a PP3 taped on!
Like the phone analogy above you have to take small steps to gain acceptance and a jump to full EV with all the compromises they need will cause market havoc...oh and there aren't enough batteries to go round...
dbs2000 said:
.... The phone analogy was terrible; would you consider buying a model T Ford now as a daily? or an old Nokia? ...
You probably use the tunnel rather than ferry. There has been some recent trouble at Dover. Have a good trip.
Funny that you should mention Nokia.
Some senior types are now using old Nokia phones again for voice calls. The idea supposedly is to increase privacy and keep sensitive information more secure.
Jon39 said:
You probably use the tunnel rather than ferry. There has been some recent trouble at Dover. Have a good trip.
Funny that you should mention Nokia.
Some senior types are now using old Nokia phones again for voice calls. The idea supposedly is to increase privacy and keep sensitive information more secure.
We've got two under 3's so it's much easier to go overnight and let them sleep through the worst of it. (Sadly the map won't let me put the ferry crossing in... I should probably stop using google maps until its added and fit for purpose
)I've heard that too with the older phones, I do miss the 2 week standby time on them it has to be said.
Jon39 said:
You probably use the tunnel rather than ferry. There has been some recent trouble at Dover. Have a good trip.
Funny that you should mention Nokia.
Some senior types are now using old Nokia phones again for voice calls. The idea supposedly is to increase privacy and keep sensitive information more secure.
Nice backwards step using unencrypted means for voice call Funny that you should mention Nokia.
Some senior types are now using old Nokia phones again for voice calls. The idea supposedly is to increase privacy and keep sensitive information more secure.
Perhaps just have a works phone that is only used for work purposes...
dbs2000 said:
cardigankid said:
There is no coherent argument for EV other than as a city taxi or runabout.
So by this comment (/voice of clear EV experience), my journey on Saturday, with the whole family in the Model 3, and in reverse a week later won't work out for us.... interesting, given this is the fourth time we've done it.....While EVs in their current guise might not work for everyone, for 90% of people the product is already good enough but not yet affordable. The phone analogy was terrible; would you consider buying a model T Ford now as a daily? or an old Nokia? Maybe you've still got a CRT TV in your house because HDMI won't catch on?
How can it be good enough for 90% of people when a large number of people cannot charge at home and there is simply not anything like the public charging infrastructure they would need? Further, you completely miss the point of the phone analogy. Mobile phone technology was a quantum leap forward, right from the start. Even the first traditional bricks you or your PA had to carry around in boxes and cost a fortune were a great step forward for the execs who could afford them. When they went into the mass market they were big and cumbersome, but still fantastic to have. The alternative was to look for a coinbox. Then we had Nokia 3290's which fitted in your car, and for a few years they were the cat's pyjamas. Then we had Blackberrys, then smartphones. Each one better than the last. With EV's we are being offered an overpriced brick when we already have an iPhone 7.
If EV's were that good everyone would have them already. To personalise this, I will be in Aberdeen on Saturday, then at a dinner in Edinburgh on Saturday night, then in Oban on Sunday. How on earth could I use an EV when I can't even charge it at home and I cannot be certain of being able to charge the vehicle on the road or how long it will take? You may say, not everyone has to do trips like that. True, but it brings you back to the point I made. EV's are fine for people who are only going to do a 5 mile commute then charge at home. That is not 90% of drivers.
I feel that the EV sales pitch has got louder and shriller over the last few months. I keep getting messages from BMW, 'come in and look at our new electric range with intelligence and curiosity', and 'owning an EV is a new way of thinking about transport'. A new way of worrying that you won't get there perhaps. Is that because they can already see that it isn't going to work out the way the politicians said it would? Oliver Zipse, CEO of BMW, does not think that an ICE ban in 2030 is feasible, and advocates letting the market decide. Meanwhile BMW will continue to develop the ICE making it ever more efficient. He points out that politicians and bureaucrats can be so intoxicated by their own hubris that they cannot even recognise their mistakes. And that is exactly right. I suspect that he is finding that the iX3's and other EV offerings are not shifting the way the politicians predicted, and a complete transfer to EV this decade will result in financial disaster for the auto industry. The politicians, who really don't care about that, are now so insulated from reality by all their Yes People, that they are in the position of the ancien regime in France. There will still be an auto industry, but it won't be in Europe. Does that not worry you? People won't be able to travel, except at great cost.
'Let them buy EV's!'.
To return to the point of this thread, Aston Martin is not about EV's, and in my view never will be with any EV technology currently in prospect. ICE is fundamental to them, and Ferrari, and Lamborghini, and Porsche. And is that such a bad thing? How much pollution do these cars cause, compared with other much more serious sources of pollution caused by issues which are not being tackled?
And we should also have regard to a long standing and in my view important industry, with a huge skill base in their employees, whom the politicians are going to make redundant. Meanwhile, the weapons manufacturing industry is stepping up, and shortly, with the grotesque mismanagement of public finances in the UK, we will be living with rationed food supplies, rationed fuel supplies, restrictions on travel, unable to heat ourselves, while all of our money is being used to buy weapons which may currently be used to kill Russians and ultimately will be used to kill us. Does that seem like a positive way forward to you?
And we should also have regard to a long standing and in my view important industry, with a huge skill base in their employees, whom the politicians are going to make redundant. Meanwhile, the weapons manufacturing industry is stepping up, and shortly, with the grotesque mismanagement of public finances in the UK, we will be living with rationed food supplies, rationed fuel supplies, restrictions on travel, unable to heat ourselves, while all of our money is being used to buy weapons which may currently be used to kill Russians and ultimately will be used to kill us. Does that seem like a positive way forward to you?
cardigankid said:
And no doubt you had a wonderful experience every time you stopped to charge. All I can say is that I would be confident of doing the journey in an ICE vehicle swiftly and comfortably without any problem at all. I just don't have the same confidence in an EV, whatever you say you can do.
Stopping once for 15 minutes is hardly a problem. It's actually quite nice to step out of the car after 3 hours of driving. We can do this journey with 1 stop. If the Hull ferry was running, now its warmer I'd be prepared to have a punt at no stops.cardigankid said:
If EV's were that good everyone would have them already.
So when Ford released the Model T, all of a sudden we had petrol stations in most districts and everybody had a car? Its economies of scale. The infra will come. My Dad is 93 this year and speaks fondly about the first cars they saw growing up. It was a slow process for a family to get 1 car, let alone 2/3 per household.cardigankid said:
To personalise this, I will be in Aberdeen on Saturday, then at a dinner in Edinburgh on Saturday night, then in Oban on Sunday. How on earth could I use an EV when I can't even charge it at home and I cannot be certain of being able to charge the vehicle on the road or how long it will take? You may say, not everyone has to do trips like that. True, but it brings you back to the point I made. EV's are fine for people who are only going to do a 5 mile commute then charge at home. That is not 90% of drivers.
Without all that much trouble it seems:
I turned off all the slow chargers <50kw. You can charge an EV from a rusty olde 3 pin plug too. When I stay with my parents in Wales thats what I do, its slow, I think 16 miles / hour but over night thats more than enough to get to a fast charge station if needed and for most people 160 miles over night is more than enough for their daily. The average person in the UK only drives 20 miles per day.
cardigankid said:
I feel that the EV sales pitch has got louder and shriller over the last few months. I keep getting messages from BMW, 'come in and look at our new electric range with intelligence and curiosity', and 'owning an EV is a new way of thinking about transport'. A new way of worrying that you won't get there perhaps. Is that because they can already see that it isn't going to work out the way the politicians said it would? Oliver Zipse, CEO of BMW, does not think that an ICE ban in 2030 is feasible, and advocates letting the market decide. Meanwhile BMW will continue to develop the ICE making it ever more efficient. He points out that politicians and bureaucrats can be so intoxicated by their own hubris that they cannot even recognise their mistakes. And that is exactly right. I suspect that he is finding that the iX3's and other EV offerings are not shifting the way the politicians predicted, and a complete transfer to EV this decade will result in financial disaster for the auto industry. The politicians, who really don't care about that, are now so insulated from reality by all their Yes People, that they are in the position of the ancien regime in France. There will still be an auto industry, but it won't be in Europe. Does that not worry you? People won't be able to travel, except at great cost.
Just for the record I'm not in bed with EVs, I find the Model 3 pretty dull to drive but it is fantastic at what it was designed to do and it's one of the most relaxing places you can sit on a long drive. It also has a lot of storage space in quite a medium sized package.Time will tell whether it's the right move. There are issues like battery material mining and while its not good, all of us can see that it is better than digging up the sea bed and causing insane amounts of damage to marine life. I do find it quite comical how the ICE brigade bring up mining for materials like our current cars were made from thin air. The charging infra will come.
I still feel there should be more pressure put on the home heating industry and insulating existing properties, if being green is what these moves are all about. Household emissions are one of the top polluting sectors, where are the bursaries? It's an easy fix but it doesn't sell very much new stuff. I agree as well about the sales push, getting Ethel out of her 1990 Nova for her 800 miles per year to the shops makes very little sense but when did sense over prevail over sales and profit?
Edited by dbs2000 on Friday 29th April 08:38
BiggaJ said:
Evanivitch said:
cardigankid said:
If EV's were that good everyone would have them already.
By that logic then Aston Martins must be rubbish because very few people have them.So no, not a quip, but an attempt at returning logic to the discussion. You seem to have taken it quite personally as a jib at AM, but I guess when you're ego is attached to what you drive it's little surprise.
dbs2000 said:
... If the Hull ferry was running, now its warmer, I'd be prepared to have a punt at no stops.
I have just had a great idea.
Charging points on car ferries, so all the EVs can be fully charged to continue their journeys.
Oops. Oh dear there is a problem. Shipping uses dirty diesel engines to generate electricity.
Jon39 said:
I have just had a great idea.
Charging points on car ferries, so all the EVs can be fully charged to continue their journeys.
Oops. Oh dear there is a problem. Shipping uses dirty diesel engines to generate electricity.
AdamV12V said:
Jon39 said:
I have just had a great idea.
Charging points on car ferries, so all the EVs can be fully charged to continue their journeys.
Oops. Oh dear there is a problem. Shipping uses dirty diesel engines to generate electricity.
Adopting EV as a technological advance is one thing; adopting EV just to 'save the planet' is another - because I am quite confident it won't, and will simply add cost to already-weak economies and create a different kind of pollution/destruction.
AdamV12V said:
Jon39 said:
I have just had a great idea.
Charging points on car ferries, so all the EVs can be fully charged to continue their journeys.
Oops. Oh dear there is a problem. Shipping uses dirty diesel engines to generate electricity.
- Brilliant. Possibly though, there might be a little drooping by the wires, somewhere between England and The Netherlands.
dbs2000 said:
cardigankid said:
There is no coherent argument for EV other than as a city taxi or runabout.
So by this comment (/voice of clear EV experience), my journey on Saturday, with the whole family in the Model 3, and in reverse a week later won't work out for us.... interesting, given this is the fourth time we've done it.....While EVs in their current guise might not work for everyone, for 90% of people the product is already good enough but not yet affordable. The phone analogy was terrible; would you consider buying a model T Ford now as a daily? or an old Nokia? Maybe you've still got a CRT TV in your house because HDMI won't catch on?
Edited by dbs2000 on Thursday 28th April 08:25
Just running about miles really!
Evanivitch said:
BiggaJ said:
Evanivitch said:
cardigankid said:
If EV's were that good everyone would have them already.
By that logic then Aston Martins must be rubbish because very few people have them.So no, not a quip, but an attempt at returning logic to the discussion. You seem to have taken it quite personally as a jib at AM, but I guess when you're ego is attached to what you drive it's little surprise.
Fact is, it makes very little difference what we do in the UK, Norway, Sweden and the rest when you have countries like China, Russia, India with their incredibly sized populations (China and India) that make London look like a village and the so called world powers don't do anything to pull them in line and start making headway with alternate, Greener energy sources.
We can potter about in an ev untill the cows come home and pay handsomely through the nose for a car then get taxed to high heaven for doing as we've been told yet we will not make a dent in making an ice cap last longer without the aforementioned countries and others making the change as we have too.
BiggaJ said:
Fact is, it makes very little difference what we do in the UK, Norway, Sweden and the rest when you have countries like China, Russia, India with their incredibly sized populations (China and India) that make London look like a village and the so called world powers don't do anything to pull them in line and start making headway with alternate, Greener energy sources.
We can potter about in an ev untill the cows come home and pay handsomely through the nose for a car then get taxed to high heaven for doing as we've been told yet we will not make a dent in making an ice cap last longer without the aforementioned countries and others making the change as we have too.
You realise it's about more than just CO2 or have you just woken up?We can potter about in an ev untill the cows come home and pay handsomely through the nose for a car then get taxed to high heaven for doing as we've been told yet we will not make a dent in making an ice cap last longer without the aforementioned countries and others making the change as we have too.
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