Discussion
IanV12VR said:
Perhaps should have phrased the question better. I know it is the AMG engine but believe it has some specific tweaks for Aston. Is it just bought in by Aston or will it be built by Aston in Cologne under licence?? Has anyone seen what Aston have said on this?
This is an Aston Martin statement about changes to the engine (DB11 V8);
'Electronic calibration of the V8 engine has included creating new ECU software and reprogramming the engine and throttle mapping. Aston Martin engineers designed new engine mounts.'
Probably not worth sending every AMG engine to Cologne, just for that.
Some thoughts from the colonies: I don't envy the designer assigned to penning a new look for the future Vantage. Now, IMO, that's messing with near perfection.
Next, given the fact that AM has had a rocky financial history, I'm not aware of anyone saying in the past that "I can't be seen in a car made by a tractor manufacturer" as David Brown came in and saved the day. So that aspect apparently didn't sabotage sales, nor did it affect Lamborghini AFAIK. As a corollary, the fact that the Vantage V8 is based on a Ford/Jaguar design is also not a liability. It's a winner both on and off the track.
With that said, I question the wisdom of straying over the line into an area where AM simply designs their car around an off the shelf engine supplied by a company with a 5%? stake in AML. Simply not enough AM involvement, not enough uniqueness, not enough lore to speak glowingly about the capabilities of this present day dry sump lump effectively massaged by AM engineers into a race winning design. I say 430HP is adequate for most enthusiasts. But for those with deeper pockets why not a 5.0 liter version which might be capable of 475HP with a corresponding increase in always welcome torque? Want more? Perhaps the "engineering division" of Q could license that well engineered local supercharger kit which utilizes a proven Eaton design resulting in well over 600HP with V8 handling to boot. At that point, who requires a V12 or a turbo Mercedes V8? I'm saying don't turn your back on a winning design which only adds to the AM story. I know, it's too late.
Just one more thing, I've got to say "Not a fan of the oh-so-trendy twist spoke wheels. But I would be a huge fan of bespoke AM carbon fiber wheels comparable to those found on the current Shelby GT350R.
Next, given the fact that AM has had a rocky financial history, I'm not aware of anyone saying in the past that "I can't be seen in a car made by a tractor manufacturer" as David Brown came in and saved the day. So that aspect apparently didn't sabotage sales, nor did it affect Lamborghini AFAIK. As a corollary, the fact that the Vantage V8 is based on a Ford/Jaguar design is also not a liability. It's a winner both on and off the track.
With that said, I question the wisdom of straying over the line into an area where AM simply designs their car around an off the shelf engine supplied by a company with a 5%? stake in AML. Simply not enough AM involvement, not enough uniqueness, not enough lore to speak glowingly about the capabilities of this present day dry sump lump effectively massaged by AM engineers into a race winning design. I say 430HP is adequate for most enthusiasts. But for those with deeper pockets why not a 5.0 liter version which might be capable of 475HP with a corresponding increase in always welcome torque? Want more? Perhaps the "engineering division" of Q could license that well engineered local supercharger kit which utilizes a proven Eaton design resulting in well over 600HP with V8 handling to boot. At that point, who requires a V12 or a turbo Mercedes V8? I'm saying don't turn your back on a winning design which only adds to the AM story. I know, it's too late.
Just one more thing, I've got to say "Not a fan of the oh-so-trendy twist spoke wheels. But I would be a huge fan of bespoke AM carbon fiber wheels comparable to those found on the current Shelby GT350R.
Jon39 said:
Watch it being built: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bNhhjA4hhE
( It does state 4 litres, but I don't think I noticed turbochargers being fitted. Might be the correct factory, but wrong engine. )
Edited by Jon39 on Thursday 3rd August 17:26
SFO said:
Jon39 said:
Watch it being built: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bNhhjA4hhE
( It does state 4 litres, but I don't think I noticed turbochargers being fitted. Might be the correct factory, but wrong engine. )
Yes, I had thought that (hence my final bracketed comment) when I saw the metal (cam covers?) being fitted, rather than the plastic engine cover that I had expected to see.
Do Mercedes-Benz build all of their AMG engines in one factory, if so where is it located?
It appears that the 63 reference has now become confusing. As you say, it used to refer to the engine capacity, but I think they now sell one or some models, with 63 in the title, but fitted with their 4.0 Bi-turbo engine. Am I correct about that point?
Jon39 said:
Do Mercedes-Benz build all of their AMG engines in one factory, if so where is it located?
It appears that the 63 reference has now become confusing. As you say, it used to refer to the engine capacity, but I think they now sell one or some models, with 63 in the title, but fitted with their 4.0 Bi-turbo engine. Am I correct about that point?
the AMG 4 cyclinder engines (in the 45 models) are assembled elsewhere.
all "43" designation AMG cars have standard Mercedes engines.
"63" started with the 6.2 NA V8, then used to identify the 5.5 V8 bi-turbo (still in the current SL 63, and was in the pre facelift S63 saloon, coupe and cabriolet), and now also the 4.0 V8 hot V bi turbo (in C63, E63, ffacelift S63 saloon, AMG GT etc).
Thank you.
All is clear now.
No wonder I was confused.
A past model called C63 AMG, had an engine that was almost 6.3 litres.
( That seemed to make sense, although I now know that the 63 designation was actually to commemorate something else. )
Now the C63 AMG has an engine that is just under 4.0 litres.
Speedraser said:
The "63" was a reference to the old 6.3L V8 from the '60s 600 limo and the 300 SEL 6.3. The first AMG cars called "63" had the 6.2L V8. Annoying, but at least it was close. Now the numbers have become completely meaningless -- they're purely for marketing.
Thank you.
My little friend can add something about the origins of the original 63 reference.
I had always thought it originally referred to engine capacity, but this seems to be the AMG explanation.
Although this engine displaces 6.208 liters, it is marketed as the "6.3" to commemorate Mercedes' famed 6.3L M100 engine, its first production V8.
BMW caused similar confusion.
The 320i used to be a 3 series body with a 2.0 litre engine,
and 325i was a 3 series body with a 2.5 litre engine. Easily understood.
Later the 320I became a 3 series body with a 1.8 litre engine.
The AMG engine being used by AM, has the code number M178.
There are films and info about it on the internet, but I don't expect you will be interested yourself Speedraser.
Edited by Jon39 on Friday 4th August 23:31
I though so too John, but it seems Pirelli just update the Zero and Corsa regularly without changing the name. So the Corsa of today is not the same tyre from 5 years ago
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/accessories-tyres/918...
That's for the vanilla p-zero but Corsa is new too
Whether they're any good or not remains to be seen
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/accessories-tyres/918...
That's for the vanilla p-zero but Corsa is new too
Whether they're any good or not remains to be seen
Edited by RobDown on Sunday 6th August 09:35
garyhun said:
Speedraser said:
The AMG engine is great -- in an AMG car 
Not bad in a Pagani either!The old 7.3 V12 was 48 valve 12 spark plugs, whereas the nearest AMG engine was 36 valves and 24 spark plugs. So the Pagani old engine was exclusive to Pagani.
JohnG1 said:
garyhun said:
Speedraser said:
The AMG engine is great -- in an AMG car
Not bad in a Pagani either!The old 7.3 V12 was 48 valve 12 spark plugs, whereas the nearest AMG engine was 36 valves and 24 spark plugs. So the Pagani old engine was exclusive to Pagani.
As long as it sounds right and offers the right performance characteristics I don't see the issue.
garyhun said:
JohnG1 said:
garyhun said:
Speedraser said:
The AMG engine is great -- in an AMG car
Not bad in a Pagani either!The old 7.3 V12 was 48 valve 12 spark plugs, whereas the nearest AMG engine was 36 valves and 24 spark plugs. So the Pagani old engine was exclusive to Pagani.
As long as it sounds right and offers the right performance characteristics I don't see the issue.
If AML had an exclusive AMG engine then that would be better than dropping in an off-the-shelf item...
^^^ I agree.
"As long as it sounds right and offers the right performance characteristics I don't see the issue." Gary, then you'd see no issue if they used a Corvette engine -- that could certainly sound and perform "right"? Or a Mustang's? Heck, we can fake any sound now through the speakers, so how about a Kia's? VW's? An i4 can sound just like a V8, V12, or anything when it's faked, so any powerful engine would be fine?
"As long as it sounds right and offers the right performance characteristics I don't see the issue." Gary, then you'd see no issue if they used a Corvette engine -- that could certainly sound and perform "right"? Or a Mustang's? Heck, we can fake any sound now through the speakers, so how about a Kia's? VW's? An i4 can sound just like a V8, V12, or anything when it's faked, so any powerful engine would be fine?
Speedraser said:
^^^ I agree.
"As long as it sounds right and offers the right performance characteristics I don't see the issue." Gary, then you'd see no issue if they used a Corvette engine -- that could certainly sound and perform "right"? Or a Mustang's? Heck, we can fake any sound now through the speakers, so how about a Kia's? VW's? An i4 can sound just like a V8, V12, or anything when it's faked, so any powerful engine would be fine?
Wow, that's a lot of straw men "As long as it sounds right and offers the right performance characteristics I don't see the issue." Gary, then you'd see no issue if they used a Corvette engine -- that could certainly sound and perform "right"? Or a Mustang's? Heck, we can fake any sound now through the speakers, so how about a Kia's? VW's? An i4 can sound just like a V8, V12, or anything when it's faked, so any powerful engine would be fine?
Speedraser said:
^^^ I agree.
"As long as it sounds right and offers the right performance characteristics I don't see the issue." Gary, then you'd see no issue if they used a Corvette engine -- that could certainly sound and perform "right"? Or a Mustang's? Heck, we can fake any sound now through the speakers, so how about a Kia's? VW's? An i4 can sound just like a V8, V12, or anything when it's faked, so any powerful engine would be fine?
Something's telling me you won't be buying a new Vantage! "As long as it sounds right and offers the right performance characteristics I don't see the issue." Gary, then you'd see no issue if they used a Corvette engine -- that could certainly sound and perform "right"? Or a Mustang's? Heck, we can fake any sound now through the speakers, so how about a Kia's? VW's? An i4 can sound just like a V8, V12, or anything when it's faked, so any powerful engine would be fine?
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