DB9 engine ticking noise - help please

[MaverickV12]

897sma said:

I would be very wary of running with more viscous oil. The thicker oil would not flow so freely through the oilways and put additional strain on the oil pump, especially when cold

I am very much of the same opinion, and hence I did not change the vescosity when I changed the oil. I thought that I would just be hiding a problem without addressing it, and then stressing the engine in another way, which is what (I think) you are saying.

Other PH'ers, the state of the oil etc. I had the oil changed 15 weeks ago at a Jaguar Franchise dealer, so I'm pretty much trusting them that they did what they said that they would do, so the oil is defo 15 weeks old.

My view is that the flush ... (and I have been told by fellow PH'ers and others - that the flush is a very good one and one that the trade uses) ... has made lose the black sludge that was all around the engine and sump etc. Having made it all lose, it then comes out with the oil change. I feel that if I had flushed every time, then there would not be so much sludge to remove.

The oil is defo 15 weeks old, but I believe the sludge is old, I think that I will use a flush every time I change the oil from here on in. I am hoping to resolve the problem with the ticking engine, then change the oil again in about 3 months. I am hoping that the oil will come out clean then. I wanted to flush the oil before we looked at the rockers, because I did not want to change the rockers and still have sludge roaming around the engine.

Just so you can judge the matter, my car has about 40k on the clock, and the engine runs like a turbine, its a beauty .... just damn well ticks .......

[MaverickV12]

GTDB7 said:

It does seem that most ticks come from the same area on all engines, this being the right hand bank and then from the center to the rear of the bank, narrowing it down to the end of the upper oil gallery feed on the right hand bank.

My experience would agree with this, I bought a sethascope and I played around the engine and it really really did come from that location. When I exposed the camshaft and rockers, I felt around the cams and they all seemed perfectly smooth, so I am hoping that the little, "wheels", inside the rockers are worn on one or more of the rockers. I am hoping that the bearing has gone on one.

I am a little anxious that when the engine is cold, its perfect and when warm its not.

If it were a worn Rocker or Lash, then why would it not make a noise when cold as well ...... ?

[MaverickV12]

GTDB7 said:

One thing I would like to ask is, can I have some of the OLD lashes you remove and possibly some rocker arms?

GT, if I can get them out, you're welcome to them. Defo.

You recon that the Lashes may be the problem not the rockers. Interesting, I can see the theory .....

I have 12 Rockers and 12 Lashes, and I have ordered a further 12 and 12, because if the labour time involved was huge, I just as well change them all, assumming of course the damn things come out. They do look damn tight though, so if there is another tool that can help take them out, I'd love to know.

Is anyone from BR reading this thread ? Would love to hear from you

GT, I understand you're working on an aftermarket alternate system, I'm all ears ..... I realise it's not up and running yet, when it is, I hope you'll post it on PH.

[MaverickV12]

drofnavi said:

If your engine has big miles, it might benefit from 5w 40 oil.

I understand what you mean, it has 40k on it. 5-40 is not a huge difference from 0-40, so it could be a consideration, I have read some info about 20-60 for racing cars, but it's playing with something that appears to be a well established issue that the 0-40 is good.

[MaverickV12]

BamfordMike
372 posts
22 months
[report] [news] Tuesday 11th December 2012
yvr said:
Mike, don't know if you've been following this thread full of dire warnings (and threats!) for V12 owners: DB9 engine ticking... I've been hoping that you might chime in with an expert opinion based on your experience, having actually seen the insides of some of them.
Hi.

To correctly diagnose engine rattles over a forum is quite a tough one....

There are a few sources of common rattles on V12, most common are;

Prop rattle.
Heard at idle, not from cold start at fast idle but when oil warm and at normal idle speed. Is worse / best heard sitting in drivers seat opening door and listening from below sill. Press throttle and make engine speed rise above 1500rpm the rattle will go, allow engine to idle the noise will return. Is an engine related problem, noise is result of uneven combustion, typically a coil which has gone down or slight misfire for another reason is present. The uneven firing pulsations between the banks results in a rattle sound travelling down the torque tube and is amplified by it.

Throttle blade rattle.
Heard when accelerator pedal is pressed at idle and as speed rises to about 1300rpm a rattle, much like the sort of sound one would guess as being tappet / lash adjuster rattle occurs. Is a result of the throttle blade closing past electronic minimum blade angle (around 2 degrees), the sound occurs as blade rattles against the housing (where normally it should be held around 2 degrees away from housing). This is a serious problem because under long overrun conditions from high rpm the throttle will fully close (where normally it should be held slightly open) causing manifold absolute pressure to drop below a value that pulls oil across into breather circuit (<17KPa)

Tappet / Lash adjusters.
Rattle heard at idle and when blipping throttle / as engine speed rises. Caused because lash adjuster failing to hold oil / pressure required to take up clearances in valvetrain. Very common problem, lost track of the number of indi and franschised dealerships we have gone into to change the lash adjusters in situ.

Bottom end / bearings.
One engine we worked on that sounded 'very tickey', was oil temp sensitive (no noise cold but noise developed hot). We checked all the obvious other sources of rattles and decided to drop bottom end of the engine. There were no visible signs of wear on bearings when removed but the noise went away after bearing change and engine rebuild.....

Death rattle.
Normally a result of running low on oil, first to fail is big end bearing causing crank and rod contact - the rattle. As the bearing wears totally away there is enough rod / piston movement for the piston crown to clash cylinder head - the death...

There are a few good practices that can prevent certain failures.

At service, if the airfilters are dripping oil replace breather circuit valves.

At 7 year service, so manifolds off for spark plug change, replace breather circuit valves even if no oil pull over is present.

Consider lash adjuster renewal if mileage is above 60/70k at 7 year service too.

There are many V12 customer cars that come in for routine service each year, and as each year passes mileage is a little higher and there are no issues to report whatsoever - normal life goes on. I have read comments like 'problems' are wide-spread and 'it' will effect every engine / car around 50k miles and that 'issues' are 'ticking timebombs' (Intended) - I can not concur that.

However, there are a number of high mileage engines that we have seen which needed complete strip and repair, that when we closely examined each component for wear, the conclusion drawn is that if it wasn't for the original reason we stripped the engine, much of the rest of the engine is very close behind to showing a symptom of wear that would require full rebuild anyway. That figure is around 80-90k miles. I am not saying that this is the service limit of the engine. What I am saying is that whilst this engine would probably 'potter' around quite happy for a good few more miles without issue, one good 'spirited' drive might be its last before refresh / rebuild.

Advice;
Check oil every week.
Do more than minimum service schedule by preventing anything bad from happening by replacing the usual suspects when it is efficient to do so at certain service schedules.
If new to the car, have a pre purchase inspection.

[MaverickV12]

I cut and paste from BR, thanks for showing me. To be honest I wish I had read this before I started. I did consider the prop shaft, but after playing for about 15 minutes with a stethascope I went for the rocker/lashes.

I always considered the rockers, but BR are pointing towards the Lashes, as is GTDB7, ummm ....... should I ignore such indicators ......?

Does anyone know how to remove the rocker / lashes without taking the camshaft off?

Slacker - thank you for pointing this post out from BR, I didn't realise it was there.

[MaverickV12]

You don't think that the oily airfilters are linked to the ticky noise do you ....... ?

[MaverickV12]

BamfordMike
372 posts
22 months
[report] [news] Tuesday 11th December 2012
yvr said:
Mike, don't know if you've been following this thread full of dire warnings (and threats!) for V12 owners: DB9 engine ticking... I've been hoping that you might chime in with an expert opinion based on your experience, having actually seen the insides of some of them.
Hi.

To correctly diagnose engine rattles over a forum is quite a tough one....

There are a few sources of common rattles on V12, most common are;

Prop rattle.
Heard at idle, not from cold start at fast idle but when oil warm and at normal idle speed. Is worse / best heard sitting in drivers seat opening door and listening from below sill. Press throttle and make engine speed rise above 1500rpm the rattle will go, allow engine to idle the noise will return. Is an engine related problem, noise is result of uneven combustion, typically a coil which has gone down or slight misfire for another reason is present. The uneven firing pulsations between the banks results in a rattle sound travelling down the torque tube and is amplified by it.

Throttle blade rattle.
Heard when accelerator pedal is pressed at idle and as speed rises to about 1300rpm a rattle, much like the sort of sound one would guess as being tappet / lash adjuster rattle occurs. Is a result of the throttle blade closing past electronic minimum blade angle (around 2 degrees), the sound occurs as blade rattles against the housing (where normally it should be held around 2 degrees away from housing). This is a serious problem because under long overrun conditions from high rpm the throttle will fully close (where normally it should be held slightly open) causing manifold absolute pressure to drop below a value that pulls oil across into breather circuit (<17KPa)

Tappet / Lash adjusters.
Rattle heard at idle and when blipping throttle / as engine speed rises. Caused because lash adjuster failing to hold oil / pressure required to take up clearances in valvetrain. Very common problem, lost track of the number of indi and franschised dealerships we have gone into to change the lash adjusters in situ.

Bottom end / bearings.
One engine we worked on that sounded 'very tickey', was oil temp sensitive (no noise cold but noise developed hot). We checked all the obvious other sources of rattles and decided to drop bottom end of the engine. There were no visible signs of wear on bearings when removed but the noise went away after bearing change and engine rebuild.....

Death rattle.
Normally a result of running low on oil, first to fail is big end bearing causing crank and rod contact - the rattle. As the bearing wears totally away there is enough rod / piston movement for the piston crown to clash cylinder head - the death...

There are a few good practices that can prevent certain failures.

At service, if the airfilters are dripping oil replace breather circuit valves.

At 7 year service, so manifolds off for spark plug change, replace breather circuit valves even if no oil pull over is present.

Consider lash adjuster renewal if mileage is above 60/70k at 7 year service too.

There are many V12 customer cars that come in for routine service each year, and as each year passes mileage is a little higher and there are no issues to report whatsoever - normal life goes on. I have read comments like 'problems' are wide-spread and 'it' will effect every engine / car around 50k miles and that 'issues' are 'ticking timebombs' (Intended) - I can not concur that.

However, there are a number of high mileage engines that we have seen which needed complete strip and repair, that when we closely examined each component for wear, the conclusion drawn is that if it wasn't for the original reason we stripped the engine, much of the rest of the engine is very close behind to showing a symptom of wear that would require full rebuild anyway. That figure is around 80-90k miles. I am not saying that this is the service limit of the engine. What I am saying is that whilst this engine would probably 'potter' around quite happy for a good few more miles without issue, one good 'spirited' drive might be its last before refresh / rebuild.

Advice;
Check oil every week.
Do more than minimum service schedule by preventing anything bad from happening by replacing the usual suspects when it is efficient to do so at certain service schedules.
If new to the car, have a pre purchase inspection.

[MaverickV12]

Does anyone think that the ticking engine could be related to the oily airfilters ......... ?

Surely not ............. could it ...?

[MaverickV12]

Not a bad day today, it was fine, I didn't swear at anyone, didn't rant at any one, didn't argue with anyone, but eventually I had to get out of bed .........

Began the changing of the Rockers and the Lashes today, dead easy ... ... believe that you'll believe anything I don't know how you professional mechanics do it every day, perhaps it easier for you, I guess what drives me on, aside from no car (but its snowing down here, and my car is actually in a centrally heated garage - so not all bad), is that I'd like to resolve the problem myself and my motto of, "how hard can it be", I have to stand by. Also I'm not sure how much it would cost to have the work done that I'm doing now.

Below is a photo of the new and old Rockers and Lashes together .....



If you look at Camshaft retaining bracket 3, number 1 is too far on the right and not in the photo, then number 2 is the first one on the right, and number 3 is the one you have to look at. If you look at the 2 rockers either side of the bracket, the one to the left is shiny and the one to the right is dull. Obviously the shiny is the new one, there are other shiny ones to the left, at this picture there are 5 old one left to take out, the others have been changed.

I could not touch the timing, in any normal car I understand you take off the camshaft and pop the R&L out, can't do that here. Take off the camshaft and the engine has to come out. If the engine is out, then for the cost you had better recon the engine, including a new oil pump. That is not what I want to do. no no no.

By the end of the day all 12 exhaust Rockers and Lashes had been changed. GTDB7, how many of the R&L's do you want? I'll try and keep the inlet ones seperate. I have ordered another 12 R&L from AM and they should be here on Monday. So hopefully by the end of Monday or at least Tuesday (unless anything goes pearshaped) I should have all the R&L's in place, then comes the, "putting back together".

Went into a well known high street store (notice I didn't name the Halfords brand), and looked at this oil. ......



Its Mobil 1, it expensive, its state-of-the-art, its thicker ....... anyone got any comments on the ups and down of using such oil .... ?

Does anyone know the cost of the work that I am trying to do? I could really do with some, "feel good", factor, based on the money I'm saving. Because if someone says the whole job can be done for £500.00, i'll cry ......

[MaverickV12]

drofnavi said:

If this fails to fix the problem are you going to remove and strip the engine.

I don't think so, I'll consider thicker oil, if not I'll live with it. However I did read the BR post about the propshaft, and might look at that, but lets just hope this resolves the issue.

I'll look at the costs of everything after I bought it all. As for the catch tank, I'm looking at that on eBay at the mo.

Yeti. That is just the problem that you have pointed out. If BR would charge £75 per hour, plus vat and do it in a working day at 8 hours, thats £720.00 and they would have done it properly ....... bugger. They would have changed the airmanifolds gaskets etc, which I have not changed etc etc. To be honest £720.00 is damned well worth it .........

If I would have known it would be £720.00 in labour, I don't think I would have done it. Its nice to learn, but sometimes discretion is the better part of valour .....

[MaverickV12]

drofnavi said:

You will get immense satisfaction from the project if you fix it yourself.
How is doing it ones self not doing it properly, provided you know what you are doing. When I service my car it is always done way better than any franchised dealer and I enjoy doing it, much cheaper as well.

[MaverickV12]

The, “tick”, remains after the work , but its different, significantly different ………

Spent quite a while just putting the engine back together, below is a photo of the central wires and tubes for the Injection and Coil packs, the wires are all (obviously) pre-cut and fit, but its still complicated, damned complicated



Fired up the engine first time, a slight delay of about 2 seconds before it started, I thought that was pretty good.

Upon starting the engine the drivers side of the V sounded like a tractor, this changed after about 30 seconds and went quiet. I knew it went quiet last time after changing the oil (and flushing) but this only lasted 5 minutes whilst the engine warmed up and the oil got hot and went thin.

So for 5 minutes the engine was quiet, I spent all of this time with the stethoscope probing the engine. IMPORTANT – you need to go very careful how you use this stethoscope, if the steel bar touches anything other than what you want to listen to, it picks up other noises. If you touch the inlet manifold and go near the engine valves, again you can hear a tick, of course you can, it’s the inlet valves, and each port sounds with a tick.

The engine went a bit noisy, then quiet again. But I also had to stand back a bit and look at the engine, I needed to remember that I was listening for a noise and my ear was 12 inches from a huge V12 with 48 valves tapping away.

I warmed the car further and started to get the engine hot, and the, “tick”, returned. But NOT where it was before. I had the engine running for about 30 minutes, like usual, it gets to the stage that the whole engine gets very hot, one thing the V12 is good at, and that is producing heat.

I spent this whole time with the stethoscope all over the engine, and to be honest after the engine had warmed up properly the passenger side of the engine, “had the edge on noise”, over the drivers side of the V. This was confirmed by the stethoscope and boy did I spend a lot of time with that. Again, go careful where you probe the stethoscope, if you touch the bolts that go down into the engine, again you pick up a ticking sound, move it ½ inch and the tick goes.

The tick was now coming from UNDER the car, it had come from here before, but the engine was making a noise and I thought that the noise was travelling. Perhaps it was, I don’t know.

I now thought back to an old-timer who looked at the noise in the first place, and he said it sounds like the prop-shaft. If we read BR post (on another thread – but added by me to this thread), one of the noises they say it could be is from the prop-shaft. Thankfully we have the big aluminium base cover off because I want to change the Drive Belt at the same time, so tomorrow I can probe the prop-shaft tunnel.

BR said about the engine not being in balance, I did feel the engine was not quite right and will get diagnostics onto it tomorrow. Am I right in thinking that the prop-shaft tunnel has an inspection plate?

I feel that because I have changed the Rockers and Lashes, I feel that any, “damage”, that may be being caused, has at least stopped. But what is confusing is that in flushing the oil, how did this make a difference?

Anyway tomorrow I will be putting the rest of the engine back together, changing the drive belt and climbing underneath to probe the tunnel. For information, the ticking is audible when the engine is ticking over, when the revs increase the ticking goes, to be fair the exhaust is so damned loud even if the tick remained it would drown it, but listening carefully the tick goes when the revs increase.

Importantly, I did not take the car for a run, as all the engine bracing was missing, as were other bits and pieces.

Has anyone please got any info that they think might be helpful, access to the tunnel? Noise from the tunnel? Where the ticking might be coming from (below the car) now? How the engine might be unbalanced?

Thanks …..

[MaverickV12]

B1, I love left field idea's sometimes they are the ones that solve stuff ......

V8Wollie is correct, I removed fuse 22 on day of purchase. Since then I have had a sports exhaust put on, so it looks nothing like the normal exhaust. But your post has reminded me of something else, did someone not mention about a ticking sound earlier on, along the same lines?

With the base plate off, I can hear that the tick is coming from the centre of the car at the base of the engine, just where someone would normally have a Auto / Manual box installed, but of course ours are at the back of the car .......

[MaverickV12]

GTDB7 said:

If the prop tick is a product of slight in-balance then perhaps your air filter clean up might cure this as part of the process!

Thats exactly what I thought, and hence my keeness to solve that issue as well .....

I am certain there was a tick from the drivers side V towards the rear, I am also certain there was a tick from underneath the car. The underneath part was easy, the tick was clear as a bell, the engine tick was less clear. I spent a long time with the stethascope placing it all over the engine covers, comparing either side, different places all over the camcovers, manifolds, engine etc etc. I went on and on. I finally sourced the tick and it was only a small tick (perhaps I should have worked it out that the small tick was too small to be the under the car tick).

But defo there was an engine tick. As described previously that tick is now gone (having said that I have not road tested the car).

I looked at the tunnel issue and the unbalanced engine, I looked at the vacuum pipes and some had oil in them some did not, but I will detail this later. I am wondering if this is the imbalance ..... if you read BR post, they said they change the PCV valves at every oppourtunity whether or not there is a problem .. they obviously don't do that for fun.

Also I considered more serious problems such as the crankshaft issues / bearing, but the engine runs like a turbine, powerful, smooth everything, surely there would be some type of tell tale signs, maybe miss a heart beat, rattle etc, but the engine runs perfect. If it is the oil being burnt, then maybe the 6.0 litre engine is hiding this, running at say 95% perfect, I don't notice the 5% problem and this might cause an imbalance.

I looked under the car at the tunnel. WOW, we will look at that another day. I took some photos that I will post, but, you need to take off the underplate at the front, the underplate in the middle, the rear cats and exhaust, then all the heat shielding ......... then you get to, "see", the tunnel. So I will be looking to invest in a scissor jack or some sort of post jack, so that access can be easily gained, so this will remain for a couple of months, having said that perhaps the PCV issue might help, I will work on the car on Monday now .....

Again, any advice and help is much appreciated

[MaverickV12]

Having taken off the aluminium undertray, I got one of the boys to do this .....



Looking at the propshaft tunnel .......



The above photo shows the stuff we have to get through to, "look", at the tunnel.



Above is the front assembly next to the engine.



Above is another view of the tunnel. I could use the stethscope on the tunnel, but I would have to warm the engine up again, i think I'll leave this for a little bit.

[MaverickV12]

drofnavi said:

Give that belly pan (torque plate or what ever they call it) a good polish before you put it back on, I did mine and they look very smart.

Would have loved to, but I need the car back together to test it and make sure the old girl is running well, as I may be off on a bit of a trip, and rather than fire her up and then drive on a trip, I would rather run her for a few days.

I bought this today ......



I have been reading about oil and viscosity (not sure about the spelling on that one), people have been saying to use a thicker oil such as a 5W or a 10W oil. What I have read and I am open to comment is that the 0W or 5W or 10W number is totally irrevelant to the engine at normal running temperature. That is initial viscosity is only related to the cranking of the engine down to Minus 18C etc.

The 50 number is the more viscose/thicker the oil is at normal running temp, so 40 up to 50 is only 1 grade thicker. The oil is expensive and we could get cheaper, but the Valvoline is some good stuff. Mobil1 make a 0W50 oil, but only being sold in USA, If anyone knows where I can get some that would be great.

I thought that the Mobil 10W60 was perhaps too thick at the moment, and only chose to go up 1 grade to the 50 stuff.

I would welcome any comments on this oil ......

[MaverickV12]

Good news.

After all this work, that is flushing the engine oil. putting in new oil, then changing the lashes and Rockers on the drivers side, then putting in some 5W50 oil (and sorting out the oily air filters - but i do not believe that it was related)

The, "Engine", tick is defo gone. Some PH'ers will know I took the car on a 3k road test, and defo defo the engine tick is completely gone, the engine sounds just like it should. Of course I'm listening to the engine at a distance of 6 inches so I am very very aware of any noise. Like normal, you fire the old girl up, she claters like a tractor for about 10 - 15 seconds, then goes quiet, perfectly quiet. I expect some noise, as there are 48 valves bouncing about there, so it'll never been like a 1.3 Honda, is it ....?

The drive shaft tick is still there.

But wait ....! Whilst on the 3k road test, the tick went. I don't mean that it was more quiet, or it came and went, or only at certain times, or at tickover or above 1500rpm etc etc. When hitting the Autobahns and cruising at 130kmh. THE TICK WENT, AND WENT COMPLETELY.

Please please explain that one ...........?

Having returned to my fair city, within about 20 miles the tick has returned. I have not had a chance to test how loud or how long it will tick for. But the tick has returned whilst in the city.

So ........

The work on the engine has been 100% successful, it has truly worked

The driveshaft tick goes under motorway cruising, but returns in the city, (but does appear less at the mo), I am all ears as to what anyone thinks that could be ticking........

[MaverickV12]

drofnavi said:

What's the news on the oil vapour catch tank part of this project?

Sorry, no, I have a load of photos of that, but am desperate for sleep. I'm driving to Les Deux Alpes in 24 hours time so am desperate to recover from the Scandavian trip, i will give a detailed answer to that one. So far the oil vent pipes are 100% successful i'll answer as soon as i can.

[MaverickV12]

Hello Boys.

The engine ticking noise is non existant, so bril but the ticking noise form the prop tunnel seems to be ever present and seems more loud. At tick over I can hear the noise, and when I put the car in Drive, then again the noise gets louder. The tick does go when I start to drive, but I can still hear it slightly, and see that a lot of the driving is in town the tick is quite previlant.

I've looked under the bonnet and the engine either masks the sound, but there is no tick from the top of the engine, it really really looks, or rather sounds, like the bell housing into the engine or the prop shaft tunnel.

Does anyone have any ideas, any ideas at all ............