So what have you done with your Aston today? (Vol. 2)

[Ninja59]

Jon39 said:

I am trying to understand a simplified picture of all this.

The starting point appears to be;
The Mercedes M176 4 litre V8TT.

When the M176/M177/M178 engines arrive at Gaydon, what parts of the engines are changed by Aston Martin ?

In 2019, the M176 was equipped with the Mitsubishi starter/generatir mild hybrid 48V electrical system, producing additional output 16 kW (22 PS) and 250 N?m (184 lb?ft) of torque. I have not heard about any of the Aston Martin models using that system.

This V8 is made in different variations and various power outputs.
M177 - higher power - used in DB11; Vantage F1 and AMR 59; DBX; DB12.
This version of the engine uses wet-sump lubrication.

M178 - 740hp Dry sump - Planned for use in the Aston Martin Valhalla.

Is this roughly the correct (not too technical) basic understanding Chris ?

Has your contact ever mentioned the DBX 3 litre in-line 6 engine, M256 ?
After the original announcement of 'China only', I don't think we have heard any more.
It is an interesting engine and of course in-line sixes are in Aston Martin's heritage.

Put the M176 to the side really as if we are being entirely correct an M176 (shock horror) is not really an AMG engine as it is manufactured by machine (and has the hybrid 48V system). The AE versions are not like this.

M177 V M178 V AE variants - hand assembled by an AMG tech. The one man, one engine mantra. Put the M178 to the corner for the moment as no AE variant uses dry sump lubrication like the M178 in current production, how close the Valhalla engine is time will tell.

The closest engine to ANY AM variant is therefore an M177 currently, AM when it arrives at Gaydon or St Athan do more than nothing than add it to the required vehicle. Essentially the engine is MADE by AMG to AM specifications and hence why calling it an M177 is really not true.

This is where in recent time AM have started to build IP on the 4 litre engine, the DB12 in particular builds on this more than previous versions as unlike the 707 engine it does not "recycle" parts Mercedes already had used as such (the 707 essentially using the black series turbos). The camshafts being one particular area than is very specific to the DB12 (and new facelift Vantage). In addition, despite what some might think the DB12 version does not use 707 turbos, but a different variant again from its brothers and sisters.

And for those of a nervous disposition regarding Gaydon or St Athan plonking the V8 from AMG in, the same fundamentally is done at Gaydon with an AE31 from Autocraft which have been responsible for building the AE31 since the closure of the engine plant in Germany for V12s.

Regarding the 6 pot no, it is not something we have touched on in honesty I don't think AM really has done much beyond mapping really. With the M177 I suspect AM did more initially given the greater numbers.

[Jon39]

Ninja59 said:

... The closest engine to ANY AM variant is therefore an M177 currently, AM when it arrives at Gaydon or St Athan do more than nothing than add it to the required vehicle. Essentially the engine is MADE by AMG to AM specifications and hence why calling it an M177 is really not true.

This is where in recent time AM have started to build IP on the 4 litre engine, the DB12 in particular builds on this more than previous versions as unlike the 707 engine it does not "recycle" parts Mercedes already had used as such (the 707 essentially using the black series turbos). The camshafts being one particular area than is very specific to the DB12 (and new facelift Vantage). In addition, despite what some might think the DB12 version does not use 707 turbos, but a different variant again from its brothers and sisters.


... Regarding the 6 pot no, it is not something we have touched on in honesty I don't think AM really has done much beyond mapping really. With the M177 I suspect AM did more initially given the greater numbers.

Thank you Chris.

I now can understand, that AML decided how they wanted the M177 to be modified and then AMG build engines to that specification.
You mentioned different turbos and camshafts. Are there other changes? I had originally pictured a standard engine (because that would be simpler for AMG) arriving at AML and then being modified.

M-B seem to extract many different levels of power from this V8, for their various car models. It sounds as though it is by having different components, not simply boost and ECU map changes. Making many different versions of the same engine, might be considered a manufacturing nightmare. I had thought there was greater simplicity.

Ref. the 3 litre in-line 6 DBX. I have wondered how many of these been sold in China. AML have not said. I understand that the 3 litre DBX is eligible for a much more lenient tax band in China, than the V8 DBX.

[cb804]

Got it ready for winter storage. As long as it stays warm and we don't get salt on the roads, I may be able to take out a few more times until spring.

[Ninja59]

LTP said:

Your posts indicate that you have an inside track to actual information, but I find this statement surprising, as I would have thought a cam change would require the re-running of the engine durability and emissions programmes by AMG Mercedes, something I wouldn't think they would do lightly as it isn't cheap.

Taking parts from an existing AMG programme makes perfect sense and I would think (but don't know) changing some of the engine peripherals during dress to suit the AML installation and badging requirements wouldn't affect base engine durability.

A fair point, but the same is so true that most people think they can take a Mercedes module with fundamentally the "same part number" plonk it in an AM and it will be "plug and play" which simply is not the case.

In fairness the changes made by AM for DB12 are in the public domain, the bit about building up IP less so, but that is the reason really. Partially also because AM will be pensioning off the AE31 V12 as it cannot meet Euro 7.

"Aston has fitted the V-8 with new camshafts with different profiles, installed larger diameter turbos, completely reworked and replaced the cooling system, and optimized the compression ratio for more performance."

Other things that are not in the public domain as such is all the recent AM platform cars were also tested at Volvo's safety facility....

Edited by Ninja59 on Monday 20th November 15:52

[Ninja59]

Jon39 said:

Thank you Chris.

I now can understand, that AML decided how they wanted the M177 to be modified and then AMG build engines to that specification.
You mentioned different turbos and camshafts. Are there other changes? I had originally pictured a standard engine (because that would be simpler for AMG) arriving at AML and then being modified.

M-B seem to extract many different levels of power from this V8, for their various car models. It sounds as though it is by having different components, not simply boost and ECU map changes. Making many different versions of the same engine, might be considered a manufacturing nightmare. I had thought there was greater simplicity.

Ref. the 3 litre in-line 6 DBX. I have wondered how many of these been sold in China. AML have not said. I understand that the 3 litre DBX is eligible for a much more lenient tax band in China, than the V8 DBX.

Well even the base AE22 used in the Vantage, DB11 etc. has differences in exhaust and sump (AMG use plastic, sorry composite. AM use metal). This is where those changing downpipes sometimes get a little caught out as it won't necessarily fit. There is a LOT of variants of the 4 litre engine with different tuning and hardware to account for those changes.

This is the same mistake a number make with BMW engines tuning thinking they are the "same" but piston materials can very hugely (and sometimes unfortunately they forget ot upgrade bits that should be upgraded).

The 3 litre is because of the taxation system in China, the same reasoning for Ferrari fundamentally going turbo for the 488.

[Simpo Two]

Dragging us back to the thread title, today I used my Aston Martine to relocate a magpie:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[Ninja59]

LTP said:

Well unless AML are now going to be providing the engine warranty I can only assume they persuaded AMG to re-run the durability (the in-vehicle emissions would need to be done by AML anyway due to the different coast-down values and probably inertia class).

Crash testing has mainly been done at the Volvo facility ever since PAG days when Volvo had the safety lead position, in the same way AML used the various production and track facilities of JLR ...until Mercedes, considered an arch JLR competitor, rocked up on the scene.

They already have an instance of that happening though. When AM decided to strap a manual gearbox to the 4.0 litre Mercedes were never going to allow it in terms of warranty anyway, so those cars with a manual are excluded from any warranty provided by Mercedes to AML already.

On a wider scale I suspect it was/is more cost effective for AML to get them to rerun the durability than cover all of the cars being produced. But at the same time AM at least build up some IP for the V8 which like it or not in the current climate is the only engine they are likely to rely on for now that meets Euro 7 in various guises.

[Jon39]

For how much longer will the M-B 4 litre V8 be available?

Mercedes seem to be in love with downsizing to their M139, 4 cylinder 2 litre engine. It is now available in most of their models and the most powerful version produces 421 hp! How long a 2 litre engine producing that power can survive, one wonders.

[Cold]

Surely there must be a better thread for all this fascinating engine talk?

[Astontony]

Well getting back to topic I took my ride to another cars and coffee it was well attended and the venue perfect for about 200 cars, all spots were filled. Mine was unfortunately the only Aston in attendance.

[AstonV]

Jon39 said:

For how much longer will the M-B 4 litre V8 be available?

Mercedes seem to be in love with downsizing to their M139, 4 cylinder 2 litre engine. It is now available in most of their models and the most powerful version produces 421 hp! How long a 2 litre engine producing that power can survive, one wonders.

Starting in 2025 MB beginning to trend towards 100% electric. So days are no doubt numbered.

[Ninja59]

Jon39 said:

For how much longer will the M-B 4 litre V8 be available?

Mercedes seem to be in love with downsizing to their M139, 4 cylinder 2 litre engine. It is now available in most of their models and the most powerful version produces 421 hp! How long a 2 litre engine producing that power can survive, one wonders.

I suspect this is part of the reason for AM investing in IP, possibly with a view to down the line with an agreement from Mercedes to get someone else to produce it just like the AE31, which as we know is currently being put together by Autocraft.

It would not surprise me if AM did exactly the same using Autocraft with "their" AE22/AE24 etc.

The latest M139 does seem to have some issues around cooling from what I have seen, how widespread not sure.

As it currently stands without the 4 litre being available AM are screwed moving forward (putting the whole Lucid side of things to the side for one moment). The other factor in MB's decision is also Pagani.

[Simpo Two]

Astontony said:

Well getting back to topic I took my ride to another cars and coffee it was well attended and the venue perfect for about 200 cars, all spots were filled. Mine was unfortunately the only Aston in attendance.

That's better than being one of many I'd say

[LordBretSinclair]

Cold said:

Surely there must be a better thread for all this fascinating engine talk?

+ 1

[V12VQuantum]

Probably my final blast in the hills around the Peaks now completed for 2023, so will be tucked away for winter once I've washed all the mud off....

Did get a few little jobs done today, and swapped the original faded metal plates for some new ones (thanks Tony Hall), and the faded purple kickplates for some carbon fibre ones (thanks ECPS in Poland).

[Tyndall]

Had full PPF fitted by All That Gleams in Surrey

[Longy00000]

Hi Oliver (?), looks very nice and I still love that blue.
Can you share which ppf they fitted as Im. Looking at getting mine done in the near future.
Just had a new front splitter fitted (blasted cobble stones) so leaving the yellow accent paint to dry znd cure properly before getting it done.
My usual detailer is using Stek but I think it's quite expensive. Looking at about £2k for the track pack which is just the front end and side skirts really.
Anyway yours is looking lovely

[Tyndall]

Longy00000 said:

Hi Oliver (?), looks very nice and I still love that blue.
Can you share which ppf they fitted as Im. Looking at getting mine done in the near future.
Just had a new front splitter fitted (blasted cobble stones) so leaving the yellow accent paint to dry znd cure properly before getting it done.
My usual detailer is using Stek but I think it's quite expensive. Looking at about £2k for the track pack which is just the front end and side skirts really.
Anyway yours is looking lovely

Thank you Paul, hope you're still loving the S!

It's Xpel Ultimate, all pre-templated so no blades anywhere near the car and wrapped around the edges, comes with a 10 year warranty and they threw in a full ceramic coating too. Track pack would have been ~£1700 to include bonnet, bumper, side skirts, mirrors, wings but it would have been sod's law I'd have picked up a stone somewhere uncovered the second I drove away so went the whole hog!

[Longy00000]

Thanks mate I appreciate that.
Beryl (the S) and I have developed an understanding. I will take her out and occasionally get carried away ( the emptiness of Northumberland ) and she brings me home safe where in return I then spend many hours, many pennies and mucho effort in keeping her looking her best.

I've just dug out the quote and it was £2200. I think I may have to find an alternative supplier !

[CSK1]

Took the beast out for a drive today enjoying the St Tropez sunshine. Parked next to a lovely Series 1 3.8 E-Type.