AML - Stock Market Listing
Discussion
nickv8 said:
Indeed- they should have installed someone with zero vision, bravery, nor indeed, hope.
Running a public company requires many skills over and above the "hands dirty" skills of your actual business.Bravery and hope are not the attributes investors look for in a CEO. You can be brave and hopeful with your own money as much as you like, but not with mine. No way.
pschlute said:
Do a poll on here as to who thought about buying shares when the idea was first floated (pun intended). I imagine like everyone else, I immediately thought oh yes, where do I sign up.
'like everyone else', not necessarily. If you look back to the comments made during the early days of this topic, quite a few people here were fearful about AML entering the 'den of scrutiny', which publicly quoted companies face.
pschlute said:
Do another poll about how many did invest having seen the price and the valuation that implied for the company. Bargepole and touch come to mind.
Yes, at a nearly £5 billion value. That is not said with hindsight, because it was widely discussed here at the time.
Anyway, people (sometimes with their customer's money) did buy all the shares being offered. Everyone was happy and smiling on the stock exchange balcony. That was at the begining of trading on the first day. It was probably more of a fixed grin by 4:30pm.
What seemed to amaze many on here last October, was why the Company did not raise equity capital in the IPO. The numerous new models and factory fitting-out capital requirements were known then to be huge. It is a very common practice in IPOs, so I am mystified why it was not done. Does anyone know what the reasons could have been ?
The 12% interest rate being paid on the new additional borrowing, could have otherwise been zero percent if they had raised equity capital, because the Company are not paying any dividends to shareholders.
At the end of 2018, fixed rate borrowing was £679 million. With the announcement now, that takes the total up to about £800 million, with a further $100 million available. These seem to be enormous figures.
There has been a long held opinion here, about the crucial financial importance of the DBX. This has now become a widespread view amongst financial commentators. I am sure the DBX premium SUV should sell though. I followed a big SUV today thinking it was the usual Audi Q7, 8 or 9, but at a traffic stop I could read Maserati. Perhaps the Audi Qs have become too common and hopefully, some of those customers will be moving up into the premium SUVs.
Edited by Jon39 on Thursday 26th September 08:11
nickv8 said:
Indeed- they should have installed someone with zero vision, bravery, nor indeed, hope.
Yes, Palmer such a great visionary 
, unfortunately none of them are very good. It's easy to be brave with other peoples money
I'm in the money. And hope? Are you serious
hope is for losers! m33ufo said:
Has anyone here actually provisionally accepted the £10 per share purchase offer?
Yes but I gather it isn't a done deal for us all - and the time is up on it now so it has to be actioned. Has anyone heard anything - will they follow through - as I will gladly take £10 each.Ken Figenus said:
m33ufo said:
Has anyone here actually provisionally accepted the £10 per share purchase offer?
Yes but I gather it isn't a done deal for us all - and the time is up on it now so it has to be actioned. Has anyone heard anything - will they follow through - as I will gladly take £10 each.As we discussed earlier, an offer of £10 for an asset worth £5 does not happen often, so the uptake was bound to be enormous.
The offer is now closed and there is an announcement you can read on the Aston Martin Lagonda investors page. Look for Regulatory News, then the PDF for Partial Cash Offer.
Often under these circumstances applicants will have their transactions proportioned, but in this case there seems to be a slightly different conclusion, but I could not understand how it is to be done. Perhaps Rob will be kind enough to explain.
A brief visit to AM Sevenoaks.
There appears to be a significant increase in the number of new cars parked on their frontage, including 8 new Vantages.
Hope these are all customer orders cars and not one of the things which chartered accountants lookout for, which I am told is called ‘channel stuffing‘.
The Sunday Times have an Aston Martin article today, but it simply repeats what has already been discussed on this topic during the past year.
nickv8 said:
AstonV said:
Palmer is a disaster and should shoulder the blame. He needs to be removed sooner that later. And take his mother and Marek Reichman with him.
Indeed- they should have installed someone with zero vision, bravery, nor indeed, hope.Should have let AM whimper away, simply reheating the popular old Vantage for another 10+ years with only a modest facelift as it was perfect to start off with in 2005
The Bez era DB9 and Vantage variants will prove to be sound investments. The current range of Mercedes powered models, I wonder? I like the DB11 Volante, but that's about it, and on the new Vantage, the words 'looks nothing like an Aston' come to mind. If I want a 4.0 litre twin turbo V8 I am likely to simply buy an AMG GT.
cardigankid said:
And zero greed, that would have helped. What he has done has damn all to do with vision, bravery or hope. It has to do with creating as big a shop window as he possibly can at the least cost, so that the existing shareholders can get as much out as they can before yet another Aston Martin financial crisis, and if they can do that by milking naive enthusiasts, so much the better. The £60 mil or so he personally extracted from the business would have done a great deal to secure Aston Martin's future if left where it was, invested in the company. He would not do that because hwe does not believe in the company himself. The man is a charlatan.
The Bez era DB9 and Vantage variants will prove to be sound investments. The current range of Mercedes powered models, I wonder? I like the DB11 Volante, but that's about it, and on the new Vantage, the words 'looks nothing like an Aston' come to mind. If I want a 4.0 litre twin turbo V8 I am likely to simply buy an AMG GT.
Caution required with this argument. With the possible exception of the transition from the Bamford & Martin to Bertelli eras, every change of direction in AM's history has brought predictions of doom. A new backer arrives in the nick of time and off we go again with the new car or production method and new customers buying cars most of the previous generation of buyers wouldn't have contemplated buying.The Bez era DB9 and Vantage variants will prove to be sound investments. The current range of Mercedes powered models, I wonder? I like the DB11 Volante, but that's about it, and on the new Vantage, the words 'looks nothing like an Aston' come to mind. If I want a 4.0 litre twin turbo V8 I am likely to simply buy an AMG GT.
DickyC said:
Caution required with this argument. With the possible exception of the transition from the Bamford & Martin to Bertelli eras, every change of direction in AM's history has brought predictions of doom. A new backer arrives in the nick of time and off we go again with the new car or production method and new customers buying cars most of the previous generation of buyers wouldn't have contemplated buying.
Although that has been the pattern historically, there is a major difference now.
All of the numbers are so much bigger. Employee numbers in the thousands, vehicle production numbers need to be higher than ever before. Debt nearly £800 million. ‘A new buyer in the nick of time‘ might not be so easy to find, if (hopefully not) there were to be a ‘next time‘.
Jon39 said:
Although that has been the pattern historically, there is a major difference now.
All of the numbers are so much bigger. Employee numbers in the thousands, vehicle production numbers need to be higher than ever before. Debt nearly £800 million. ‘A new buyer in the nick of time‘ might not be so easy to find, if (hopefully not) there were to be a ‘next time‘.
Writing that I realise it's not a sound business model.
Hindsight is always a beautiful thing, but I agree that many saw the painting on the wall long before the IPO was closed back then. The question about raising new capital in an IPO is obviously closely tied to the cash need going forward. A big part of the reason to go to the stock market in the first place is to attract investors and be able to raise money in the future. So what initially was seen as a long term financing tool, which would have been the exit route for InvestIndustrial, has turned into exactly the opposite. When IPO’ing a business the market can only take a certain number of shares. The higher the valuation the fewer takers. The banks were the main culprits pushing the valuation too far. But also the existing (selling ) shareholders were too greedy. It would have been the independent board members together with the management that should act in the interest of the Company. So making sure that the expansion plan was fully funded etc. If it wasn’t, it would have been their role to make sure that some new equity is going into the company rather than lining the pockets of the selling shareholders. Given that AP had a big incentive to maximise his proceeds in the IPO i think his view might have been biased towards a high valuation rather than looking out for the company long term (I would put this down to inexperience with public markets rather than greediness). I think however the Board should have reacted at this much more than they did (if at all). AML will survive in some shape or form (it has always done), I just think that the shares are pretty worthless given that much debt in the balance sheet. I think that it will eventually be taken off the stock exchange in some debt / equity swap once AML defaults on its debt repayments. It is clearly too highly geared. That is just my opinion btw.
DickyC said:
cardigankid said:
And zero greed, that would have helped. What he has done has damn all to do with vision, bravery or hope. It has to do with creating as big a shop window as he possibly can at the least cost, so that the existing shareholders can get as much out as they can before yet another Aston Martin financial crisis, and if they can do that by milking naive enthusiasts, so much the better. The £60 mil or so he personally extracted from the business would have done a great deal to secure Aston Martin's future if left where it was, invested in the company. He would not do that because he does not believe in the company himself. The man is a charlatan.
The Bez era DB9 and Vantage variants will prove to be sound investments. The current range of Mercedes powered models, I wonder? I like the DB11 Volante, but that's about it, and on the new Vantage, the words 'looks nothing like an Aston' come to mind. If I want a 4.0 litre twin turbo V8 I am likely to simply buy an AMG GT.
Caution required with this argument. With the possible exception of the transition from the Bamford & Martin to Bertelli eras, every change of direction in AM's history has brought predictions of doom. A new backer arrives in the nick of time and off we go again with the new car or production method and new customers buying cars most of the previous generation of buyers wouldn't have contemplated buying.The Bez era DB9 and Vantage variants will prove to be sound investments. The current range of Mercedes powered models, I wonder? I like the DB11 Volante, but that's about it, and on the new Vantage, the words 'looks nothing like an Aston' come to mind. If I want a 4.0 litre twin turbo V8 I am likely to simply buy an AMG GT.
I think that you are misinterpreting history. It is not that there are always saviours willing to rescue Aston Martin. It is that Aston Martin is so often in need of rescuing. That it is rescued is because, post David Brown, Le Mans and James Bond, it is such a strong brand that the name alone has value, but in the long term it will only succeed in the hands of committed industry professionals, rather than chancers, arbitrageurs or amateurs. The day of the cottage industry supercar is over. Committed professionals like Mercedes Benz or BMW.
The problem just now is that the professionals have already way too much on their plate with all the Climate Change and electric car rubbish to deal with real issues.
As to greed or misjudgement? AP knew he was in line for a Lottery scale payoff. He also knew that the company needed the money he was taking. It was greed, and deliberate mismanagement for short term gain, believe me.
cardigankid said:
I am not saying back to the future, that Bez Astons are real Astons and the current ones are not. They are all real Astons, but the current ones a little less appealing than before, for me anyway. What I am saying is that people now decry Bez (who was incidentally the leader of the Porsche 993 project) and say he lacked hope, courage and vision, while AP apparently has all these magic qualities. Actually Bez did far more for Aston than AP, with all his smoke and mirrors.
Can't let that go - Porsche were in terrible trouble during the 993 era. And Aston weren't making enough money (if any) on the Gaydon VH cars.I'm sure Dr Bez is very clever but I'm not convinced one of his skills is generating profit.
Edited by scampbird on Thursday 10th October 12:03
Gassing Station | Aston Martin | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff