Jag F type v V8 Vantage

[jonby]

Following on from some comments on the 'little whisper' thread I thought it would be interesting to share thoughts with others re: the comparisons between these 2 vehicles

I actually think that considering the F type is a brand new model and the vantage is now, one assumes, shortly to be replaced/significantly refreshed, the gap is not as large as one might think, especially if one looks at 'real world' pricing of current vantage

I sat in the F type at Geneva and whilst I've always thought the shape was pretty (the biggest plus point by far for the F type as far as I'm concerned, particularly the rear), I din't think it was quite as good looking in real life

My biggest gripe was quality of materials. The cabin looks significantly more modern than an Aston but the quality of the finish was at best, inconsistent. I have no doubt the infotainment system will look 3 generations newer but the amount of plastic in the cabin, under the bonnet, etc. particularly cheap plastic, just looked out of place

The cabin looks even more snug than the vantage yet all the external dimensions are greater. Width of F type is 1923/2042 with/without mirrors whilst vantage is 1866/2022. Length is 4470 compared to vantage at 4382 and height is a little over 1300 (varies between models of F type) compared to 1260

I also have no doubt that it will sell well based on looks particularly in areas like mine (Cheshire) and that it won't be a bad drive but I think for a supposedly ground up new design, it's somewhat disappointing

It's difficult to know whether to compare v8 vantage to the V8 Ftype or the better of the two V6 models, the V6S, as arguably base vantage fits somewhere between the two in performance, so I've compared both

0-60/top speed: F-V6S 4.9/171, F-V8S 4.2/186, Vantage V8 4.7/180
Power (PS) V6S 380, V8S 495, Vantage V8 426
Weight (KG) V6S 1614, V8S 1665, Vantage V8 1710kg
List Price New V6S 67.5k, V8S 80k, Vantage V8 Roadster with Sportshift II 100k

So whilst vantage is heavier, the difference is far smaller than you might imagine considering one is such a new design with the weight of R&D budget that they have compared to the other 'overweight, old fashioned car' that is vantage. This is partly because of the XK related chassis that also explains the quite frankly inescusable width, particularly without mirrors, of such a supposedly compact and certianly snug cabinned car

Now look at prices. The jag comes considerably less well equipped, albeit the options are relatively cheap by Aston standards. But even if one looks just at base prices, let's be realistic, you can buy an effectively new vantage roadster with sportshift for mid 80s, such as this one http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/a...

If punters actually realised that you can buy a vantage for that price, how many would then buy the F type ? I don't see many V6S F types leaving the showroom for less than 75k, let alone the V8S version and I assume there will be no discounts for a while.

As I say, I have no doubt the F type will sell well, but it's not got the technological or price advantages to the degree that many might at first assume

[Beefmeister]

I've passengered in an F-Type V8S and after much prodding and pushing of a production spec car in the warm and cosy viewing room at Castle Bromwich, I felt the interior was every bit a match for the V8 Vantage.

The design is light years ahead and there are some really nice touches with the raising vents, starter button/paddle colour and such like. I felt that the interior was more than roomy enough even with the roof up and i'm 6'3 and broad.

Oh, there's also the fact that it sounds absolutely incredible, truly spine tingling, and goes spectacularly well.

The F-V8S will certainly steal sales from the V8V while it's new. People want the new shiny thing and the F is just that. Jaguar also has a very good image now - certainly not Aston standard but good enough - and the F is going to boost that even more. The lack of a manual 'box will affect about 1% of buyers according to the Jag chap I spoke with.

But a manual 'box IS coming, launched at the same time as the coupe either later this year or early next year, but only on the V6 models (i think). That will be more focused than the convertible and crucially, cheaper. The chap from Jag said he would expect a manual V6S Coupe to be c.£65,000.

[Jon39]

Yes but, 'IT'S AN ASTON MARTIN'.

[jonby]

Beefmeister said:

I've passengered in an F-Type V8S and after much prodding and pushing of a production spec car in the warm and cosy viewing room at Castle Bromwich, I felt the interior was every bit a match for the V8 Vantage.

The design is light years ahead and there are some really nice touches with the raising vents, starter button/paddle colour and such like. I felt that the interior was more than roomy enough even with the roof up and i'm 6'3 and broad.

I have no doubt you are right in many of the things you say in your post overall. I agree it will sell well.

But whilst it's down to personal opinion, I really did find that although the design is as you say light years ahead, the feel when you touched everything was way too plasticky for a car at this level, or more importantly, compared to vantage. A lot of style, probably works well, but feels cheap in comparison

As for space, it's not that you can't get comfortable. But there is no room whatsoever behind the seats in the way there is in vantage roadster and the boot is even more impractically shaped. I don't see how the packaging can be commended when it's larger than vantage externally, almost as heavy, but has less space. I'd say with the exeption of the gearbox, vantage is actually a better every day proposition

as for the 8 speed auto, well it's not really comparable to sportshift and for those who wish to drive in auto mode, I have no doubt the f type would be the better car. But I don't see how on one hand, 'the lack of manual only affects 1% of buyers' stacks up with them offering a manual version soon - if it was really so small, why bother offering a manual at all ?

I go back to the fact this is emperor's new clothes - given the resources of jag and a brand new model to them, value for money, weight & finish simply don't stack up. For me anyway.

[michael gould]

Jon39 said:

Yes but, 'IT'S AN ASTON MARTIN'.

thats not enough anymore

[Beefmeister]

jonby said:

I have no doubt you are right in many of the things you say in your post overall. I agree it will sell well.

But whilst it's down to personal opinion, I really did find that although the design is as you say light years ahead, the feel when you touched everything was way too plasticky for a car at this level, or more importantly, compared to vantage. A lot of style, probably works well, but feels cheap in comparison

As for space, it's not that you can't get comfortable. But there is no room whatsoever behind the seats in the way there is in vantage roadster and the boot is even more impractically shaped. I don't see how the packaging can be commended when it's larger than vantage externally, almost as heavy, but has less space. I'd say with the exeption of the gearbox, vantage is actually a better every day proposition

as for the 8 speed auto, well it's not really comparable to sportshift and for those who wish to drive in auto mode, I have no doubt the f type would be the better car. But I don't see how on one hand, 'the lack of manual only affects 1% of buyers' stacks up with them offering a manual version soon - if it was really so small, why bother offering a manual at all ?

I go back to the fact this is emperor's new clothes - given the resources of jag and a brand new model to them, value for money, weight & finish simply don't stack up. For me anyway.

I agree with what you say, as I said the same things. (incidentally, I grew up in Lymm, Cheshire. I'm not an Essex boy, promise!)

I put those very questions to Ian Callum when I was there. As for the packaging and size of the car, it has been designed to meet crash and impact regulations world over for the next 10 years. This is why the doors are so thick and everything is squeezed inwards despite it being a large and wide car. Callum went into detail about how they hard to work really hard to stretch the bodywork over the hard points of the car, to the point of getting the engineering team to redesign the intake and above engine parts so they could liberate an extra 10mm so the bonnet could dip down before rising up to the wings.

The regulations also explain the weight, as they were adapting a floorplan not designing one from scratch, so it's no wonder it's a heavy car. Though I will say, from the passenger seat is certainly hides the girth well, changing direction with none of the weight transfer and momentum you get in the XKR.

I'd wager that the new V8V will have a similar width/interior ratio as most cars will from now on. It's like the pedestrian impact regs dictating the nose height.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the V8V. It will always be one of the prettiest shapes to every have graced the roads, but times change and I really hope Aston pull something amazing out of the bag with the next gen. Because with the F-Type around it'll certainly need that certain something.

[ds2000]

I'll definitely go and have a look at one, just to be nosey more than anything. Not a fan of the rear, it looks a little like a squinting S2000 and as awful as this may sound..... its just a Jag.... :S

[sukh_m]

ds2000 said:

its just a Jag.... :S

snob

[ds2000]

sukh_m said:

snob

Haha and no

I loved my 350z, my S2000 is still one of the best cars that I've ever had but for the money on show here.... I really don't care if the Jag is quicker than my Vantage or not.... all personal choice of course. More than happy to go and have a look at one and be proven completely wrong

[theno23]

I'm not sure the novelty factor is all that important, Bentley has been selling the current Continental for ages now. As long as the car is good, and the brand doesn't get too devalued, people will keep buying it.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see Aston drop the V8V from the range though, they could concentrate on higher margin cars, and leave the "low end" to other makes.

- Steve

[sukh_m]

ds2000 said:

Haha and no

I loved my 350z, my S2000 is still one of the best cars that I've ever had but for the money on show here.... I really don't care if the Jag is quicker than my Vantage or not.... all personal choice of course. More than happy to go and have a look at one and be proven completely wrong

Jags don't do it for me either. Had a look at the XK before the vantage, just doesn't compare.

[Simon T]

michael gould said:

Jon39 said:

Yes but, 'IT'S AN ASTON MARTIN'.

thats not enough anymore

on its own i would agree but couple that with drop dead looks, road presence, cabin ambiance (sp?) and performance it was and is for,me. Ive had a couple of Jags now, nice cars but still only a Jag

S

[good grief]

I live just outside Coventry and have seen the Jags running round for months, and in my opinion they look very ordinary, especially from the front, the backs ok ish, but 12 months on from now you won't be looking twice at them..... Unlike the Aston which has classic lines, which I'm sure you will ALL agree!

[yeti]

Jon39 said:

Yes but, 'IT'S AN ASTON MARTIN'.

So? So you think they're still Touring bodies with handmade Supperleggera aluminium body panels? Nope, just nailed together in the same way as a Jaguar.

Or do you think it's because a fictional spy was product placed to drive one in some movies..?

When I think of Jaguar I think of the C and D winning Le Mans, the E-Type being the envy of Ferrari, the hugeness and smoothness of the MkX. Space, pace and grace.

When I think of Aston, I think of them paying to put the car in movies. The hopeless Newport Pagnell V8s. And Ulrich Bez's colossal ego

As a brand, I prefer Jaguar... They had a nadir in the late 70s to the early 90s but as a brand I prefer them now, and historically they have no rival

The DB9 is still the best car that AML have ever made, and that was 2004. Everything else since has been based on it, no bad thing but punters are sick of it, even though most of the industry is only just catching up!

The Jag will steal huge sales as a new car pretty much killing the Vantage I would say. Maybe it will die, or be replaced, who knows. If its replaced, it needs to look more like a new car than the DB9.2 does to the DB9.1.

[Ikebaddog]

yeti said:

Jon39 said:

Yes but, 'IT'S AN ASTON MARTIN'.

So? So you think they're still Touring bodies with handmade Supperleggera aluminium body panels? Nope, just nailed together in the same way as a Jaguar.

Or do you think it's because a fictional spy was product placed to drive one in some movies..?

When I think of Jaguar I think of the C and D winning Le Mans, the E-Type being the envy of Ferrari, the hugeness and smoothness of the MkX. Space, pace and grace.

When I think of Aston, I think of them paying to put the car in movies. The hopeless Newport Pagnell V8s. And Ulrich Bez's colossal ego

As a brand, I prefer Jaguar... They had a nadir in the late 70s to the early 90s but as a brand I prefer them now, and historically they have no rival

The DB9 is still the best car that AML have ever made, and that was 2004. Everything else since has been based on it, no bad thing but punters are sick of it, even though most of the industry is only just catching up!

The Jag will steal huge sales as a new car pretty much killing the Vantage I would say. Maybe it will die, or be replaced, who knows. If its replaced, it needs to look more like a new car than the DB9.2 does to the DB9.1.

Get a Jag then.

[yeti]

Ikebaddog said:

Get a Jag then.

No.

[George29]

sukh_m said:

Jags don't do it for me either. Had a look at the XK before the vantage, just doesn't compare.

I only realised this the first time I saw both side by side. You can tell the Jag has been designed with mass production taking precedence in some areas. It looks cheap by comparison.

Also, is it just me that doesn't particularly like the way the F-Type looks? The back is nice but I really don't like those big gaping intakes.

[Jon39]

yeti said:

When I think of Jaguar, I think of bank robbers, the Great Train Robbery, and those American main dealers, who when they sold a new Jaguar, hid the PX in case the customer wanted it back again.

When I think of Aston Martin, I think of a beautiful work of art, where owners are proud, and complete strangers admire. Whilst driving, I also think of how rarely I see another Aston Martin, as I pass by all those Jaguars.

Oooo Mr. Yeti, I thought you were a fan. Have you had a bad day?
Such provocative comments, for an Aston Martin forum.
Editing was required, to restore sanity.
You speak so highly of Jagwors, but I don't think you have listed any in your current collection.

We like our Aston Martins.

Edited by Jon39 on Wednesday 13th March 22:59

[AWV12]

Is this Jaguar admiration a typical UK thing?

Overhere (mainland EU), Jaguar is not considered a serious car brand (anymore). Design is ok most of time, but technological and performance/steering wise, these cars are compared with (and considered less than) Mercedes.

As I wrote in another compare thread already, I sat inside two F-types, and as the OP writes, the design is great, but the build and material qualiy of everything you touch is below average (even TT, Z4 and Boxster are better in this respect).

So comparing the F-type with a Boxster or SLK AMG could be reasonable (from price/performance perspective), but comparing it with a V8V (or 911 or GranTurismo or M6 or RS5) is ridicolous imho.

Edited by AWV12 on Sunday 17th March 19:32

[yeti]

Jon39 said:

Such provocative comments, for an Aston Martin forum.

You speak so highly of Jagwors, but I don't think you have listed any in your current collection.

We like our Aston Martins.

I have owned two Jaaags, both V8s, both lovely and both of the previous generation. Of course the newer ones are even better. But it serves the same purpose as an Aston, so I don't need both. I miss them both though.

I just think the constant sniffing about 'it's only a Jag' or 'It's not an Aston' are getting a bit blinkered. While being factually true, of course

Would I swap my DB9 for a brand new F-Type? Not a chance, I love my Aston. But not just because 'it's an Aston' or the F-Type is 'only' a Jag. I prefer my DB9, that's all. It's fast, it's unique, it sounds like Krakatoa has gone off again when I put my foot down and I never tire of looking at it from the inside or the outside.

But if the next generation XKR is some kind of monstrously beautiful, monstrously powerful, monstrously high quality and monstrously rapidly-depreciating entity, then who knows where my allegiance will go next...

But I doubt it