Considering a DB11?
Discussion
Here I offer an honest appraisal of the original DB11 V12, what to expect for those thinking of taking the plunge.
I’m also in my seventh year of n/a V8 Vantage ownership, so I guess I’m quite well positioned to comment on the differences that a VH owner thinking of moving to the newer cars might notice. I’ve had my DB11 nearly four years. It was first registered in Feb 2018. I bought it at 12 months old, getting the AMR engine/transmission/damping reflash as part of a deal from HWM.
As with any Aston, the first thing is the X-factor. True to form, the DB11 looks and feels very special, somehow better in real life than in photos (It only gets shaded in real life when side by side with a Vanquish). The DB11 gets universally positive attention. As I first noticed with my Vantage, after coming out of 911's, it seems that everyone (at least in the UK) loves an Aston Martin. I noted that the DB11 gets more positive comments in filling stations etc than my old V8VS, but that's probably partly due to the fact that it is a somewhat startling colour, as opposed to the more traditionally subdued hue of my little Vantage
Build & quality
The DB11 is a significant improvement from the earlier generation cars in terms of overall build quality and reliability, inside and out. It just feels much better engineered and properly developed. The electrical architecture especially, lifted wholesale from MB just works properly and reliably. There have been no electrical issues or gremlins with my DB11 - it has cost me nothing other than fuel, tax, insurance and ‘cleaning products’ in the whole time I've owned it. I made sure the niggles were sorted under warranty, and these were minor - trim rattles etc
Interior
Apart from the 2 awful plastic displays, which should not be on any car remotely near the price point, let alone an Aston, the rest of the interior is generally a step up from the DB9/Vantage in terms of material quality if not aesthetic design. Fit, finish and overall quality of materials is better. Most but not all of stuff that looks metal is metal, glass switches et al, and I've seen no evidence of any leather peeling off the internal panels as it often seems to be thinking of doing in my Vantage. Indeed, the seats and all leather in my near 5 yr old DB11 still looks and smells like new, unlike my V8VS, where the seat backs were already looking tired when I bought it at the same age. Leather headlining, cooled/perforated seats, two tone seats and the brougeing do help lift what is in terms of design can look an otherwise underwhelming DB11 interior.
Apart from number one sin, the stuck on plastic central screen, the other two bits that let down the interior are the main display (another plastic disaster with cheap looking graphics) and the sad deletion of the lovely aluminium handled fly-off handbrake, replaced with a MB electric handbrake with the switch hidden by the driver's knee, fitted backwards and therefore working in reverse, like the old Volvo window switches in the earlier cars where down was up and up was down - perhaps they did it just to remind owners of the old car..
The interior could have been so much better if AML had just redesigned, updated and improved the quality of the DB9 interior, retaining the quality looking instruments and funky rotating display but making them far more modern, useable and readable, and retained traditional cues (which maybe not a Vantage, but surely a DB11 customer might have wanted?) like the fly-off handbrake. Bentley embarrassed AML by showing them how to properly update the rotating display concept with the 2018 Conti GT.
I hate mentioning infotainment, as far too much is made of the fact that niche independents can’t cut it without the benefit of parent tech. Though it was fiddly and quirky, the old cars at least had a fairly bespoke system, which became somewhat usable with the Garmin nav in the later years. Though it was a functional improvement on the earlier hodge-podge system, the DB11 had to settle for what is now a two or even three generation old Mercedes system that was borderline good enough for such a car at launch in 2016. The technologies develop so quickly that the system in the DB11 now looks very much out of date. Personally I don’t care much about such things, but the reality is that a great many potential customers do. The good news is it looks like an update is imminent, the facelifted DB11 and Vantage will likely get some version of the DBX system.
The sound systems are carried over from the earlier cars, the one in my DB11 is the 700W ‘premium’ option, as always from Alpine. It’s not quite the 1000W B&O system fitted in the launch spec cars, but once properly set up it is good enough, as the same system is in my Vantage.
The V12 Engine and powertrain
The twin turbo V12 is an Aston Martin engine. Does it matter? Some will assume that only the worst of the brexity types will think that it does. Maybe it is naive to expect a (for now) still independent niche/boutique luxury GT/sports car manufacturer to develop its own engines given the extraordinary development costs and market requirements these days, especially with production lifespans being so short and the writing on the wall for the IC engine.
However, between 2012 and 2016 AML did it. They delivered an all new twin turbocharged V12. As JC said in 2016, how on earth did they do that? with the change they found down the back of the sofa? Given the challenge, the result was fantastic, with time proving the new V12 engine to be solid, untemperamental and completely reliable with no serious faults to date - no doubt helped a great deal with the Mercedes electrical architecture.
The twin turbo V12 was actually a total redesign (only the variable valve timing system was carried over from the n/a V12), and carried an argument that it was even a more of an Aston Martin engine than the original V12, which, fantastic though it was, did have a compromised pedigree - there's no escaping that it was developed from the Ford V6, to the very end sharing common Ford pistons, rods etc.
The turbo V12 motor is incredibly smooth and deceptively fast. Despite being restricted to 700Nm in DB11, unless you are in the absurdly tall upper two gears there's almost never a need to change down to overtake if on the paddles. IMHO Insufficient credit is given to AM for that considerable achievement, it remains a lost opportunity for the company that the magnificent V12 engine was not utilised in some form of DBX.
While naturally heavier, AM's turbo V12 motor is also no poor relation even when compared to the extraordinary Mercedes-AMG M177 V8. The Aston V12 twin turbo is an absolutely stonking mother of a motor, sweet, responsive, ultra smooth, even deploying fuel saving technologies. Even in a comparatively lazy 700Nm tune it has huge performance. In DBS form the exact same engine (same part number) was uprated from a thumping 700 to an unreal 900Nm with a simple factory remap (cooling pack/transmission also uprated). Chief engineer Brian Fitzsimmons future proofed the V12 very well, twin scroll turbos, forged rods and pistons, big intercoolers, loads of fuelling capacity reserve.
The V12 AMR reflash
The AMR software upgrade is immediately noticeable with far greater differentiation between the powertrain and suspension modes. Pantomime pops appear and changes are faster than before in sport mode. In sport+ mode, gearchanges are much faster, sometimes violent, and it crackles and bangs pretty much all the time. Sport+ is almost too aggressive for the road. The simple remap, now offered by dealers inexpensively is recommended to all V12 owners as it does add another dimension to the cars already multi-faceted character. The remap is not just about an extra 30 horses, it is a full recalibration of engine, transmission and suspension, allowing the 3x3 driving modes to really give it all, from unchanged wafting mile munching GT high speed comfort through to rock hard damped, loud, crackling, viciously shifting sport+ headbanging mode. You can't really use it in auto in full hooligan modes as both throttle and the kickdowns are too violent - if you select sport + the car basically tells you it’s time to drive it on the paddles.
Ignoring the AMR-map pops and crackles, The V12 makes a fantastic noise especially when opening the taps - the combination of the deep induction roar and exhaust wail at high load/high rpm is utterly intoxicating.
Even with the AMR upgrade, torque remains limited to 700Nm throughout nearly the entire rev range. The engine map in the software upgrade just continues the flat torque plateau 500 rpm higher resulting in those extra horses at the very top of the rev range. The extra 5% peak power is only detectable at wide open throttle and above 6000 rpm - it makes the car feel less turbocharged and more naturally aspriated at the very top end. Open, dry and ideally unrestricted roads or tracks are necessary to detect the effect, the car very quickly builds speed. Torque was limited for presumably for commercial reasons but also to protect the 8HP75 ZF transmission fitted to the V12 DB11 (unlike the 8HP95 fitted to DBS).
The V12 makes so much torque at low rpm that it overwhelms its tyres too easily, with the nanny systems cutting in with annoying frequency if too much throttle is used on anything but perfectly dry and smooth roads. Thankfully there is a solution, junk the too-hard bridgestones and fit Michelin PS4S, these tyres transform the DB11 V12 as they do for pretty much every other AM.
Handling not as good as the Merc V8 DB11 or AMR?
The twin turbo V12 DB11 was consistently praised by all journalists at launch, then it took a slating on its handling from most of the same journalists a year later when the V8 was launched with the lighter Mercedes AMG M177 in the front and a years worth of additional chassis development. While there can be no denying that, all things equal, a 100kg lighter V8 lump in the front will give different characteristics, quicker steering etc, I would suspect that few are capable of driving the V12 with the lunacy that would be required to show up, on road, any chassis deficiencies between it and the slightly tweaked V12 AMR, which utilised the later V8's slightly tweaked suspension set up. Us mere mortal non racing drivers would probably struggle to detect the effect of a 0.5mm thicker anti roll bar or a slightly harder bush compound which might together make a 'genuine' DB11 V12 AMR a few seconds quicker around the Nurburgring than a DB11 V12 with AMR reflash. At the end of the day, a DB11 is not, and was never intended to be a race car. It was designed, in best AM tradition, as a good old fashioned sporting GT - just a very fast one. If you wanted something for trackdays, and to obsess about the effect of ARB stiffness or bush compounds on lap times, that's what the Vantage is for.
For the same journalists who praised the car so strongly to then retrospectively suggest that the early DB11 V12 rear suspension set up was somehow ‘off’ after taking to the engineers who made some minor suspension tweaks to create a slightly more sporting V8-engined DB11 variant was as ludicrous as the companies panicked reaction of copying the V8’s suspension tweaks to the V12, producing a light engine remap and some garish decals and renaming it the ‘AMR'; a fact that was quietly acknowledged by AML for 2022 with the reversion to the original DB11 V12 name and suspension hardware setup.
The upshot of this is that owners or potential purchasers of an early V12 can now have the exact same powertrain spec as the last of the pre-facelift DB11 V12's, by simply having the supplying dealer flash the software as part of the deal.
Driving
There is no getting away from the fact that the 11 is a big car. It was designed and is set up as a 2+2 GT, just like the 9 before it. It is built to insulate the driver, to be luxurious and comfortable while crossing continents at 3 figure speeds with a massive and barely awake V12 engine. I guess the refined engine, luxurious ride (in GT) and super smooth slush box and electric steering contribute, but the flipside to the comfort is a feeling of slight numbness, as a driver it is sometimes a challenge to really be aware of what’s going on if you want to really hustle the car. As a result, for spirited driving I prefer my old n/a Vantage S. I am glad I kept the Vantage - I know that I would have missed it.
If you are coming from a n/a Vantage, and maybe worried about the DB11 V12 being a bit ‘pipe and slippers’ - don’t be. It isn't a Vantage, but it does have the chameleon ability to get much closer to Vantage dynamics than the DB9 ever could, while remaining every bit as comfortable, exuding the same style by the bucketload, and being much faster and more robust.
10 or 15 years ago I wouldn't have considered a DB9 - then I got older and felt the need to spank my cars less. I began to appreciate more the option of a smooth unruffled ride when I needed it. I found I appreciated having rear seats, good enough for people under 5’9” for shortish trips (as long as driver and front passenger aren’t hugely taller). With 100 or more miles to get home after a long day, and a need to do it as quickly as possible, there’s no other car I would rather travel in than my V12 DB11.
Obligatory photo
I’m also in my seventh year of n/a V8 Vantage ownership, so I guess I’m quite well positioned to comment on the differences that a VH owner thinking of moving to the newer cars might notice. I’ve had my DB11 nearly four years. It was first registered in Feb 2018. I bought it at 12 months old, getting the AMR engine/transmission/damping reflash as part of a deal from HWM.
As with any Aston, the first thing is the X-factor. True to form, the DB11 looks and feels very special, somehow better in real life than in photos (It only gets shaded in real life when side by side with a Vanquish). The DB11 gets universally positive attention. As I first noticed with my Vantage, after coming out of 911's, it seems that everyone (at least in the UK) loves an Aston Martin. I noted that the DB11 gets more positive comments in filling stations etc than my old V8VS, but that's probably partly due to the fact that it is a somewhat startling colour, as opposed to the more traditionally subdued hue of my little Vantage
Build & quality
The DB11 is a significant improvement from the earlier generation cars in terms of overall build quality and reliability, inside and out. It just feels much better engineered and properly developed. The electrical architecture especially, lifted wholesale from MB just works properly and reliably. There have been no electrical issues or gremlins with my DB11 - it has cost me nothing other than fuel, tax, insurance and ‘cleaning products’ in the whole time I've owned it. I made sure the niggles were sorted under warranty, and these were minor - trim rattles etc
Interior
Apart from the 2 awful plastic displays, which should not be on any car remotely near the price point, let alone an Aston, the rest of the interior is generally a step up from the DB9/Vantage in terms of material quality if not aesthetic design. Fit, finish and overall quality of materials is better. Most but not all of stuff that looks metal is metal, glass switches et al, and I've seen no evidence of any leather peeling off the internal panels as it often seems to be thinking of doing in my Vantage. Indeed, the seats and all leather in my near 5 yr old DB11 still looks and smells like new, unlike my V8VS, where the seat backs were already looking tired when I bought it at the same age. Leather headlining, cooled/perforated seats, two tone seats and the brougeing do help lift what is in terms of design can look an otherwise underwhelming DB11 interior.
Apart from number one sin, the stuck on plastic central screen, the other two bits that let down the interior are the main display (another plastic disaster with cheap looking graphics) and the sad deletion of the lovely aluminium handled fly-off handbrake, replaced with a MB electric handbrake with the switch hidden by the driver's knee, fitted backwards and therefore working in reverse, like the old Volvo window switches in the earlier cars where down was up and up was down - perhaps they did it just to remind owners of the old car..
The interior could have been so much better if AML had just redesigned, updated and improved the quality of the DB9 interior, retaining the quality looking instruments and funky rotating display but making them far more modern, useable and readable, and retained traditional cues (which maybe not a Vantage, but surely a DB11 customer might have wanted?) like the fly-off handbrake. Bentley embarrassed AML by showing them how to properly update the rotating display concept with the 2018 Conti GT.
I hate mentioning infotainment, as far too much is made of the fact that niche independents can’t cut it without the benefit of parent tech. Though it was fiddly and quirky, the old cars at least had a fairly bespoke system, which became somewhat usable with the Garmin nav in the later years. Though it was a functional improvement on the earlier hodge-podge system, the DB11 had to settle for what is now a two or even three generation old Mercedes system that was borderline good enough for such a car at launch in 2016. The technologies develop so quickly that the system in the DB11 now looks very much out of date. Personally I don’t care much about such things, but the reality is that a great many potential customers do. The good news is it looks like an update is imminent, the facelifted DB11 and Vantage will likely get some version of the DBX system.
The sound systems are carried over from the earlier cars, the one in my DB11 is the 700W ‘premium’ option, as always from Alpine. It’s not quite the 1000W B&O system fitted in the launch spec cars, but once properly set up it is good enough, as the same system is in my Vantage.
The V12 Engine and powertrain
The twin turbo V12 is an Aston Martin engine. Does it matter? Some will assume that only the worst of the brexity types will think that it does. Maybe it is naive to expect a (for now) still independent niche/boutique luxury GT/sports car manufacturer to develop its own engines given the extraordinary development costs and market requirements these days, especially with production lifespans being so short and the writing on the wall for the IC engine.
However, between 2012 and 2016 AML did it. They delivered an all new twin turbocharged V12. As JC said in 2016, how on earth did they do that? with the change they found down the back of the sofa? Given the challenge, the result was fantastic, with time proving the new V12 engine to be solid, untemperamental and completely reliable with no serious faults to date - no doubt helped a great deal with the Mercedes electrical architecture.
The twin turbo V12 was actually a total redesign (only the variable valve timing system was carried over from the n/a V12), and carried an argument that it was even a more of an Aston Martin engine than the original V12, which, fantastic though it was, did have a compromised pedigree - there's no escaping that it was developed from the Ford V6, to the very end sharing common Ford pistons, rods etc.
The turbo V12 motor is incredibly smooth and deceptively fast. Despite being restricted to 700Nm in DB11, unless you are in the absurdly tall upper two gears there's almost never a need to change down to overtake if on the paddles. IMHO Insufficient credit is given to AM for that considerable achievement, it remains a lost opportunity for the company that the magnificent V12 engine was not utilised in some form of DBX.
While naturally heavier, AM's turbo V12 motor is also no poor relation even when compared to the extraordinary Mercedes-AMG M177 V8. The Aston V12 twin turbo is an absolutely stonking mother of a motor, sweet, responsive, ultra smooth, even deploying fuel saving technologies. Even in a comparatively lazy 700Nm tune it has huge performance. In DBS form the exact same engine (same part number) was uprated from a thumping 700 to an unreal 900Nm with a simple factory remap (cooling pack/transmission also uprated). Chief engineer Brian Fitzsimmons future proofed the V12 very well, twin scroll turbos, forged rods and pistons, big intercoolers, loads of fuelling capacity reserve.
The V12 AMR reflash
The AMR software upgrade is immediately noticeable with far greater differentiation between the powertrain and suspension modes. Pantomime pops appear and changes are faster than before in sport mode. In sport+ mode, gearchanges are much faster, sometimes violent, and it crackles and bangs pretty much all the time. Sport+ is almost too aggressive for the road. The simple remap, now offered by dealers inexpensively is recommended to all V12 owners as it does add another dimension to the cars already multi-faceted character. The remap is not just about an extra 30 horses, it is a full recalibration of engine, transmission and suspension, allowing the 3x3 driving modes to really give it all, from unchanged wafting mile munching GT high speed comfort through to rock hard damped, loud, crackling, viciously shifting sport+ headbanging mode. You can't really use it in auto in full hooligan modes as both throttle and the kickdowns are too violent - if you select sport + the car basically tells you it’s time to drive it on the paddles.
Ignoring the AMR-map pops and crackles, The V12 makes a fantastic noise especially when opening the taps - the combination of the deep induction roar and exhaust wail at high load/high rpm is utterly intoxicating.
Even with the AMR upgrade, torque remains limited to 700Nm throughout nearly the entire rev range. The engine map in the software upgrade just continues the flat torque plateau 500 rpm higher resulting in those extra horses at the very top of the rev range. The extra 5% peak power is only detectable at wide open throttle and above 6000 rpm - it makes the car feel less turbocharged and more naturally aspriated at the very top end. Open, dry and ideally unrestricted roads or tracks are necessary to detect the effect, the car very quickly builds speed. Torque was limited for presumably for commercial reasons but also to protect the 8HP75 ZF transmission fitted to the V12 DB11 (unlike the 8HP95 fitted to DBS).
The V12 makes so much torque at low rpm that it overwhelms its tyres too easily, with the nanny systems cutting in with annoying frequency if too much throttle is used on anything but perfectly dry and smooth roads. Thankfully there is a solution, junk the too-hard bridgestones and fit Michelin PS4S, these tyres transform the DB11 V12 as they do for pretty much every other AM.
Handling not as good as the Merc V8 DB11 or AMR?
The twin turbo V12 DB11 was consistently praised by all journalists at launch, then it took a slating on its handling from most of the same journalists a year later when the V8 was launched with the lighter Mercedes AMG M177 in the front and a years worth of additional chassis development. While there can be no denying that, all things equal, a 100kg lighter V8 lump in the front will give different characteristics, quicker steering etc, I would suspect that few are capable of driving the V12 with the lunacy that would be required to show up, on road, any chassis deficiencies between it and the slightly tweaked V12 AMR, which utilised the later V8's slightly tweaked suspension set up. Us mere mortal non racing drivers would probably struggle to detect the effect of a 0.5mm thicker anti roll bar or a slightly harder bush compound which might together make a 'genuine' DB11 V12 AMR a few seconds quicker around the Nurburgring than a DB11 V12 with AMR reflash. At the end of the day, a DB11 is not, and was never intended to be a race car. It was designed, in best AM tradition, as a good old fashioned sporting GT - just a very fast one. If you wanted something for trackdays, and to obsess about the effect of ARB stiffness or bush compounds on lap times, that's what the Vantage is for.
For the same journalists who praised the car so strongly to then retrospectively suggest that the early DB11 V12 rear suspension set up was somehow ‘off’ after taking to the engineers who made some minor suspension tweaks to create a slightly more sporting V8-engined DB11 variant was as ludicrous as the companies panicked reaction of copying the V8’s suspension tweaks to the V12, producing a light engine remap and some garish decals and renaming it the ‘AMR'; a fact that was quietly acknowledged by AML for 2022 with the reversion to the original DB11 V12 name and suspension hardware setup.
The upshot of this is that owners or potential purchasers of an early V12 can now have the exact same powertrain spec as the last of the pre-facelift DB11 V12's, by simply having the supplying dealer flash the software as part of the deal.
Driving
There is no getting away from the fact that the 11 is a big car. It was designed and is set up as a 2+2 GT, just like the 9 before it. It is built to insulate the driver, to be luxurious and comfortable while crossing continents at 3 figure speeds with a massive and barely awake V12 engine. I guess the refined engine, luxurious ride (in GT) and super smooth slush box and electric steering contribute, but the flipside to the comfort is a feeling of slight numbness, as a driver it is sometimes a challenge to really be aware of what’s going on if you want to really hustle the car. As a result, for spirited driving I prefer my old n/a Vantage S. I am glad I kept the Vantage - I know that I would have missed it.
If you are coming from a n/a Vantage, and maybe worried about the DB11 V12 being a bit ‘pipe and slippers’ - don’t be. It isn't a Vantage, but it does have the chameleon ability to get much closer to Vantage dynamics than the DB9 ever could, while remaining every bit as comfortable, exuding the same style by the bucketload, and being much faster and more robust.
10 or 15 years ago I wouldn't have considered a DB9 - then I got older and felt the need to spank my cars less. I began to appreciate more the option of a smooth unruffled ride when I needed it. I found I appreciated having rear seats, good enough for people under 5’9” for shortish trips (as long as driver and front passenger aren’t hugely taller). With 100 or more miles to get home after a long day, and a need to do it as quickly as possible, there’s no other car I would rather travel in than my V12 DB11.
Obligatory photo
Edited by Calinours on Wednesday 21st December 20:30
Simpo Two said:
Good post. You bring some very useful insights and info to the forum.
I think the old window buttons being 'reversed' is mostly because they're designed to be used flat, but Aston fitted them at a crazy angle.
As for a V12 DB11 being 'pipe and slippers' - well maybe Max Verstappen might think so but it would be more than enough for me. I don't care whether it does 155 or 165mph, or whether the body roll is 0.5% more than a McLaren, or whether the 'infotainment' is v3.1 or v3.2, I buy the brand and the looks.
Caught an episode of Top Gear today comparing the DB11 with a Merc SL63 (I think it was). And what was the theme? Why, James Bond of course. For 99% of the population, it's all about the badge. And even now, after my DB9 has been fixed for yet another time, and we wonder how many weeks it will last this time before being carted off again on a trailer, it is still the looks and the badge, and I am starting to forgive it. Again.
Thanks. I am very sorry you’re having issues with your DB9. Sometimes, even with the best will we are just unlucky, my early years with the V8V were a nightmare. Then I thought f*** it, gave the car to a trusted specialist and told them to sort out every issue. Apart from one more failure, the car is now pretty solid - but I don’t suppose any AM will ever be cheap to run or maintain, especially as they age.I think the old window buttons being 'reversed' is mostly because they're designed to be used flat, but Aston fitted them at a crazy angle.
As for a V12 DB11 being 'pipe and slippers' - well maybe Max Verstappen might think so but it would be more than enough for me. I don't care whether it does 155 or 165mph, or whether the body roll is 0.5% more than a McLaren, or whether the 'infotainment' is v3.1 or v3.2, I buy the brand and the looks.
Caught an episode of Top Gear today comparing the DB11 with a Merc SL63 (I think it was). And what was the theme? Why, James Bond of course. For 99% of the population, it's all about the badge. And even now, after my DB9 has been fixed for yet another time, and we wonder how many weeks it will last this time before being carted off again on a trailer, it is still the looks and the badge, and I am starting to forgive it. Again.
I hope your luck turns soon.
I think the secret it being prepared to spend money to keep the car how it should be, but spend it with those who can make your money go as far as it can - even if it doesn’t always feel that way. Good no nonsense and down to earth specialists are worth travelling for.
Octavarium said:
Calinours said:
For the same journalists who praised the car so strongly to then retrospectively suggest that the early DB11 V12 rear suspension set up was somehow ‘off’ after taking to the engineers who made some minor suspension tweaks to create a slightly more sporting V8-engined DB11 variant was as ludicrous as the companies panicked reaction of copying the V8’s suspension tweaks to the V12, producing a light engine remap and some garish decals and renaming it the ‘AMR'; a fact that was quietly acknowledged by AML for 2022 with the reversion to the original DB11 V12 name and suspension hardware setup.
As somebody who is considering changing to a V12 DB11, thank you for taking the considerable time and effort in compiling this comprehensive piece.My understanding however, was that the MY2022 updates kept the suspension alterations that were introduced for the AMR. After a little digging around, I found the following from the official AML press release - https://media.astonmartin.com/aston-martin-launche... .....
'The marque’s flagship Super GT will now be known as the Aston Martin DBS, after dropping the ‘Superleggera’ badge and the V12 DB11, whilst retaining its higher power output and dynamic suspension attributes, has dropped the ‘AMR’ badge. Both of these changes were made to simplify nomenclature across the range and focus the offering to customers.'
Edited by Octavarium on Saturday 24th December 00:12
skat004 said:
I was in the market for a V12 DB11 and spoke to the local dealer as well as the service guys about the differences in the launch v12 model vs. AMR vs. the latest DB11 which sheds the AMR badge. Here is what I've ascertained from the extensive conversations and spec cross-referencing based on information supplied directly by the dealer.
Launch V12 (2016-2018) had a more traditional GT setup in terms of suspension, gearbox and power delivery. Also, the exhaust note was toned down to cater for the classic aston martin customer that doesn't want loud pops and bangs from their car. You could say this was geared less towards the younger driver.
The AMR V12 (2018 -2021) changed this. The suspension tweaks were ONLY in the suspension bushes and roll bars. the dampers are exactly the same although the damping software is completely remapped. So is the gearbox software and engine management software. The gearshifts are more aggressive and slightly harsher. The turbos are kept spooled up for longer to provide more instantaneous acceleration. Also more fuel is dumped in the catalysts to keep the turbos spooled which is then dumped via the exhaust to produce the crackles and pops. This generally results in a more sporty and more exciting car.
2022 V12 (2022 - onwards) - Same HP as the AMR package but the suspension hardware tweaks have been taken back to mostly the original launch spec. He said this car goes back to the GT roots from a handling perspective. The damper software, gearbox map and engine maps are exactly the same as the previous AMR spec. So this car is effectively the launch spec with the AMR power upgrade. That was his verbatim feedback.
So what am i going to do? pick up the next DB11 V12 from the launch period, and get the AMR upgrade :-)
Launch V12 (2016-2018) had a more traditional GT setup in terms of suspension, gearbox and power delivery. Also, the exhaust note was toned down to cater for the classic aston martin customer that doesn't want loud pops and bangs from their car. You could say this was geared less towards the younger driver.
The AMR V12 (2018 -2021) changed this. The suspension tweaks were ONLY in the suspension bushes and roll bars. the dampers are exactly the same although the damping software is completely remapped. So is the gearbox software and engine management software. The gearshifts are more aggressive and slightly harsher. The turbos are kept spooled up for longer to provide more instantaneous acceleration. Also more fuel is dumped in the catalysts to keep the turbos spooled which is then dumped via the exhaust to produce the crackles and pops. This generally results in a more sporty and more exciting car.
2022 V12 (2022 - onwards) - Same HP as the AMR package but the suspension hardware tweaks have been taken back to mostly the original launch spec. He said this car goes back to the GT roots from a handling perspective. The damper software, gearbox map and engine maps are exactly the same as the previous AMR spec. So this car is effectively the launch spec with the AMR power upgrade. That was his verbatim feedback.
So what am i going to do? pick up the next DB11 V12 from the launch period, and get the AMR upgrade :-)
Edited by Calinours on Saturday 24th December 10:06
eoinbenjimancox said:
Octavarium said:
Your local AM dealer should be able to help you there. They did have an offer on a while back of around £1200 for the upgrade. Whether or not they still do the reduced price, I'm not sure. Worth a phone call though.
Thanks a million . I think it’s 1100 but that was old prices but I’ll certainly do it if it’s circa that The best thing about a software upgrade is it’s simple to reverse. If you don’t like the more aggressive nature that the car will take on in the sportier driving modes you can just as easily take it back to standard - but I would suspect that most won’t
Edited by Calinours on Monday 26th December 08:17
Try making sure the battery is fully charged, then swing a leg under the rear. I don’t know if it’s a common option, but mine has gesture/automatic boot unlock combined with soft close boot, and if it’s been standing sometimes won’t initially recognise the command from the cab button or remote.
waremark said:
I have, and am still delighted with, a launch edition.
My dealer offered me the AMR Flash for a 3 figure sum. I refused because I don't want it to be harsher or more uncouth and I never use full throttle over 6k rpm.
If you haven't yet had the flash I suggest you try a car with and without it before deciding to go for the 'upgrade'. Remember that those early positive reports by the journalists praised the car's breadth of character.
On the downside, the op loves the sound. Yes, but it's not a patch on the older NA engine. And unlike him I use the radio and find it a vast improvement on the older cars.
I don’t remember stating that I don’t use the radio My dealer offered me the AMR Flash for a 3 figure sum. I refused because I don't want it to be harsher or more uncouth and I never use full throttle over 6k rpm.
If you haven't yet had the flash I suggest you try a car with and without it before deciding to go for the 'upgrade'. Remember that those early positive reports by the journalists praised the car's breadth of character.
On the downside, the op loves the sound. Yes, but it's not a patch on the older NA engine. And unlike him I use the radio and find it a vast improvement on the older cars.
?I understand you sir are Schmee150’s dad? - many thanks for instilling something of a soft spot for AM in your industrious youtubing son.
neverlifted said:
Great write up, enjoyed reading that. Had mine circa 2 yrs/12k miles now. The AMR performance pack is worth having imo, it makes it sound a bit artificial, but does add a harder edge when you want it, and in GT mode it is no different to standard. Adds circa 10% to insurance even in mid 30s.
Had geo done at Center Gravity, setup perfectly now. I'd bin the S007s and try Potenza Sport/Mich PS4S.
Infotainment is alright, had the official Carplay/Android Auto installed, so now have wireless Android Auto- hit and miss on start up connection though.
Dipped beam is weak imo compared to the VAG group Matrix LEDs.
Thanks. There’s so much BS floating around the net that sometimes there has to be some sort of imperative to put down something to counter it. It would be very easy for someone potentially thinking of an AM these days to come away with the impression that all AML engine development and production has ceased and all the current cars are powered by Mercedes engines. Had geo done at Center Gravity, setup perfectly now. I'd bin the S007s and try Potenza Sport/Mich PS4S.
Infotainment is alright, had the official Carplay/Android Auto installed, so now have wireless Android Auto- hit and miss on start up connection though.
Dipped beam is weak imo compared to the VAG group Matrix LEDs.
waremark said:
neverlifted said:
DB11 does have its quirks. The bonnet soft close is always temperamental, the wipers sometimes don't start first time, there's usually a random service message on cold start which clears after an ignition cycle once it is warmed up. The brake squeal/squeak can be annoying at low speed. Generally, the more you drive it, the better it all works!
I've never had any of those issues on my older DB11!I understand wanting a V12 and you mention the 812 as the only alternative. The GTC4 Lusso is available cheaper than an 812, much more practical, frankly much better chassis than the DB11, and can still drive like a proper sports car.
Once I disabled the tracker, fitted another new battery, and always connected to its little life support - never another spurious message. Maybe the DB11 electrics are a) capable of eating batteries and b) a little sensitive to batteries approaching end of life? - a telling point may be that you mention that the errors disappear after start up, where the alternator will be raising battery voltage…?
Batteries remain inexpensive - 1st thing I would recommend is replace the battery and always connect a monitor. I read somewhere that AGM-type lead acid batteries were recommended for the new stuff due to the start-stop functionality.
I’ve always, with every car I’ve ever had given a decent squirt of spray lube to any exposed and moving metal mechanism annually (such as boot locks and bonnet catches) to prevent any possibility of seizure through corrosion.
j4r4lly said:
Great write up which echo's my experience with my DB11.
I have a 2017 DB11 V12 CEO Launch Edition with the AMR upgrade. Such a great car which in GT mode will waft about in serene comfort and then in Sport and Sport+ changes in character to a bit of a hot rod. Even now the effortless grunt of the engine surprises me, it really is a very quick car if provoked.
Negatives - the interior doesn't feel as special as the previous DB9 and Vantage, though it is very well put together, instruments are functional but no more, needs to be trickle charged or driven regularly to avoid random messages on the cluster, dipped headlights only adequate, gearshifts in Sport+ are very aggressive so not ideal for road use and I wonder what it does for the long term durability of the transmission, car is wide which can make country lanes and car parks challenging, brakes are over servo'd which is OK in normal use but they can be very "grabby" in slow moving traffic.
Positives - Definitely looks better in the metal than in pictures, interior is very comfortable and well built, B&O sound system is superb, all interior controls work nicely, boot is usable enough for a couple of cabin sized cases with suits/coats laid over the top and plenty of space either side for other odds and sods, back seat fine for younger people, small dogs and extra storage. Fuel economy in GT mode excellent (we managed just over 28 mpg on a 320 mile round trip from Essex to the New Forest driving at the speed limits) and it's great fun on an empty road using the paddle shifts. 360 camera works really well and is essential due to the front 5 feet of the car being invisible to the driver and the width of the car - mirror cameras are excellent at seeing where the front wheels are pointing or how close you are to a kerb/bollard/parked car etc. Love the 3 steering wheel settings for GT/Sport/Sport+ for the ride and engine/gearbox which allows you to easily tweak the cars character depending on your mood, road conditions etc. Ride comfort really very good in GT mode making long journeys very relaxing.
Overall it's an excellent car and I'm very happy and consider myself privileged to own it. Even my wife likes it!
Thanks for the comments. The strangest thing is the difference between how it comes across in photos (a bit awkward from some angles) and how it looks in real life - utterly stunning, never failing to attract endless positive comments. I remember Chris Harris saying something similar in his road test and wondering what the hell he was on about, but he was, as he usually is, absolutely on the money... Also you make an interesting point on the brakes, I heard from some tests (I think a certain Mr Metcalfe was one) at launch that the brakes were a bit grabby, however I haven't noticed this at all in my 2018MY car. The brakes on mine work beautifully, there's no grabbing, no feeling of over assistance and they don't even squeal. Maybe there were some tweaks to the servo assistance config between launch and when mine was built?I have a 2017 DB11 V12 CEO Launch Edition with the AMR upgrade. Such a great car which in GT mode will waft about in serene comfort and then in Sport and Sport+ changes in character to a bit of a hot rod. Even now the effortless grunt of the engine surprises me, it really is a very quick car if provoked.
Negatives - the interior doesn't feel as special as the previous DB9 and Vantage, though it is very well put together, instruments are functional but no more, needs to be trickle charged or driven regularly to avoid random messages on the cluster, dipped headlights only adequate, gearshifts in Sport+ are very aggressive so not ideal for road use and I wonder what it does for the long term durability of the transmission, car is wide which can make country lanes and car parks challenging, brakes are over servo'd which is OK in normal use but they can be very "grabby" in slow moving traffic.
Positives - Definitely looks better in the metal than in pictures, interior is very comfortable and well built, B&O sound system is superb, all interior controls work nicely, boot is usable enough for a couple of cabin sized cases with suits/coats laid over the top and plenty of space either side for other odds and sods, back seat fine for younger people, small dogs and extra storage. Fuel economy in GT mode excellent (we managed just over 28 mpg on a 320 mile round trip from Essex to the New Forest driving at the speed limits) and it's great fun on an empty road using the paddle shifts. 360 camera works really well and is essential due to the front 5 feet of the car being invisible to the driver and the width of the car - mirror cameras are excellent at seeing where the front wheels are pointing or how close you are to a kerb/bollard/parked car etc. Love the 3 steering wheel settings for GT/Sport/Sport+ for the ride and engine/gearbox which allows you to easily tweak the cars character depending on your mood, road conditions etc. Ride comfort really very good in GT mode making long journeys very relaxing.
Overall it's an excellent car and I'm very happy and consider myself privileged to own it. Even my wife likes it!
Edited by Calinours on Wednesday 11th January 14:12
helloworld88 said:
GTC, I found to be a remarkable car. A car I would have loved to have! the issue I found with the car, despite almost all its beautiful features, was the seats. To this day, I have never driven a car that has given me so much back pain in less than one hour of driving. I am in my mid-30s and in good shape. My wife had the same experience in the car. I understand that the seats are controversial, with many echoing my opinion and others saying otherwise. Other than that, the car is astonishing in every way possible.
Finally, as noted in another thread, i am keen on getting a DB11 sadly the versions I like in my area all have a high mileage 30k-50k
Purely a UK obsession. If you suggested this was a ‘high mileage’ to anyone outside our tiny island they would laugh at you. Finally, as noted in another thread, i am keen on getting a DB11 sadly the versions I like in my area all have a high mileage 30k-50k
Don’t believe ? Checkout continental or US adverts. If you like it and it checks out, buy it, drive it, forget about mileage. Enjoy your car.
TonyChocolony said:
Absolutely superb write up Calinours, thank you. Couldn't agree more with all your points.
Thanks - Much appreciated I copy below another little post I did about the engine. I hope that you also enjoy.
Originally posted by me sometime in late 2023:
Well, we have a thread about the fantastic AMG V8 variants as used by AML. Some on here will know that I’m both an owner and a fan of the other recent Aston engine offering, the turbo V12.
For anyone else who may be interested in the blown V12, the AE31 (Aston Martin Engine # 31) as fitted to DB11, DBSS, V12 Vantage 2016-2023 and a handful of more limited and expensive, still continuing bespoke stuff (Speedster, Valour), some info as to why it never set the high performance world, even the Aston world on fire…
As well as being immensely strong and smooth, fact is the AE31 is an extremely well engineered and robust engine, and does not get the respect it deserves, even in the petrolhead places like PH.
This is partly because of timing, partly bad luck, but mainly bad decisions/poor management. Such decisions hurt sales, damaged reputation and of course ultimately contributed to the ousting of the previous management.
Some reasons IMHO the fabulous AE31 was almost DOA..
1. It was launched in the DB11, which while beautiful, many considered it not such an instant design classic as the DB9.
2. It was downsized (5935cc to 5204cc) redesign of the long serving, well developed and much loved Ford bankrolled n/a V12 and it was turbocharged. Being turbo put a lot of puristy Aston folk off, even though 5 litre plus blown engines were nothing new for AM.
3. A huge heavy V12 launched when the world was already downsizing to smaller lighter configurations and just beginning the move away from the IC engine altogether.
4. The V12 should not have been launched first. The AMG V8 powered version of the DB11, launched just over a year later had an extra years worth of chassis development (stiffer bushings, retuned dampers) and was 100kg lighter in the nose, was over USD20k cheaper and had almost the same torque as the very heavily sandbagged V12. So of course the V8 car felt just as fast, and way sharper. After driving the V8 and talking to AM engineers at its launch who freely admitted a bit of tweaking and chassis development (because that’s what happens…) all the fickle journos who had so loved the V12 a year earlier then slagged it off. They should have launched the AMG V8 first as the ‘cooking’ version, then the higher end own-engine V12 later.
5. AM made the mistake of panicking when V12 sales fell as a result of the success of the V8, they said they were ‘withdrawing’ the V12 and ‘replacing’ it with the ‘new’ DB11 AMR. This was a bit cynical, the AMR was 99.9% the same car as the DB11. All AM did was copy the hardware chassis tweaks made for the V8, these being slightly harder subframe bushes. AM also claimed a very slightly (0.5mm or 40thou) thicker front ARB. Apart from the light forged wheels, smoked rear lamps, dark headlamp internals, and some garish AMR logos, it’s the same suite of hardware, the same car. The key differences for the AMR were essentially new firmware maps for the sportier driveline and suspension modes, ie recalibrated engine, transmission and dampers. The 30hp higher peak on the AMR came from holding onto that heavily limited 700Nm of torque for another 500rpm at the top end.
AM effectively disowning their own product so soon really damaged the original DB11 V12 with it being essentially disregarded as a failure within 2 years of its own launch. Watch any slightly ill informed youtuber video review. Such stuff does nothing for the reputation of the company, the product or, sadly, its own fabulous V12 engine.
6. Perhaps the biggest mistake - the specification of the ZF8HP70 in all versions of DB11. This version of the ZF8 was rated at 700Nm maximum (hence the name) This was fine for the AMG 4.0 V8, which at that time was maxing out at around 685Nm, but meant that the V12, even in AMR tune, had to be heavily torque limited, to just 700Nm. Using a low spec and presumably lower cost transmission (ZF8HP75 was available in 2016) meant that AML could never, during its entire run in the DB11, really differentiate their mighty, in house, 5.2 V12 from the much cheaper AMG 4.0 V8.
Only when the far more expensive DBS Suoerleggerra was launched in 2018 did we get to see what the V12 was really made of. It had the ZF8HP95 and the otherwise exact same AE31’s twin, twin scroll turbos could finally be allowed some boost. In DBSS, the AE31’s Torque went from 700 to 900Nm. Power went to 726hp and the last versions (DBS ultimate) left the factory (again, exact same AE31 engine assembly part number) with 770hp. I’d lay odds that the aftermarket, esp in USA could easily take this motor to 1000hp with minimal changes, perhaps just new fuel pumps and turbos.
7. Traction. The front engined rear drive DB11 and DBS always struggled to get their power down. They were both traction limited. It meant fairly ordinary numbers for those who cared. This was partly due to the continued used of those awful hard Bridgestone tyres, a hangover from the Ford days. Modern sticky tyres improve things greatly.
Fact is, the AE31 was and is a beast, an absolute mother of a motor. It was designed from the outset with a very high quality forged crank, forged rods and forged pistons. It is immensely strong and immensely smooth, even in low boost excellent throttle response DB11 form, and with most of the exhaust gases bypassing the turbos to limit the power it makes a fabulous exhaust noise, despite being turbocharged, as well as an intoxicating intake roar under heavy acceleration and high rpm. It is a true Aston Martin Engine.
https://youtu.be/0IREtCujKJk?si=CPV4-mams6usnhqh
Edited by Calinours on Saturday 13th April 22:13
Edited by Calinours on Saturday 13th April 22:19
Gassing Station | Aston Martin | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff