Has anyone ever grown to like an auto?

[xjay1337]

PixelpeepS3 said:

i guess it all depends on what your daily life consists of.

'average' car ownership of members on here i assume is as follows:

- Petrol head owner
- enjoys the odd spirited blast down a slip road, when someone tries to take the piss, off a roundabout and having more power than average available for
when the circumstances allow.
- understands that owning a higher performance car will mean higher fuel bills, but it's nice to have your cake and eat it sometimes.
- doesn't have a bottomless bank balance for maintenance / fuel / road tax
- can't afford/justify to run/own more than one car so its going to be an all rounder, one that ticks 'most' of the boxes
- higher than average driving skills but not a driving god
- has a job mon-fri which involves driving to and from, averaging 8-25mph on that commute
- prefers a predictable drive whilst not driving for pleasure
- eats the odd sandwich or sips a coffee/tea whilst driving (loud gasp from the safety stacey (lacey?) brigade)
- gets to spend maybe 3% of their total time in the car driving purely for pleasure

to me, i'd rather a car that's right for 97% of the time i use it - case in point, my EP3 civic type-r - great car, hated it for 97% of the time!

DSG S3/Golf R was ideal for my 97% - loved them both. Attempted to try something different, bought a 16 plate manual civic diesel (120bhp) to try and keep commuting costs down. i hate my automotive life right now.

What?

You mean not everyone on Pistonheads earns £225k per annum, has a 75 car garage, Heel and Toes ALL the time in their manual when driving in the mountains for pleasure, and takes a private plane to work twice a week to update the share holders?

[Touring442]

xjay1337 said:

What?

You mean not everyone on Pistonheads earns £225k per annum, has a 75 car garage, Heel and Toes ALL the time in their manual when driving in the mountains for pleasure, and takes a private plane to work twice a week to update the share holders?

I couldn't believe it either.

[BFleming]

Poppiecock said:

The F30 was a cheaply built heap of junk, closely related to the F20 1-series.

It’s night and day between an F30 and F10 5 series. I tested them back to back and went F10. Still miss that car, but I can’t justify the BIK on a new 5.

I own both a 1 series (114i manual running a 118i map) and a 5 series (525d auto 2.0 twin turbo running a few extra horses too); the build quality is night & day between the 2. The F20 is definitely below my old E90 LCI in terms of build quality, but the F11... I did 2250 km in it in 2 days (last Friday & Saturday) and there is literally no other car I would have rather done it in. 47mpg, fast, comfortable, family luggage swallowed comfortable, and cold air con. F11 wins!

[smashy]

I just do not think there is any driving for pleasure left in the uk its all a fantasy land dream like a car advert with just one car on the road too many yellow boxes ,too many cameras too many lorries too many cars very very sad ........re auto ..manual is sooooo 20th century

[E-bmw]

IMO that is for the defeatists, those who have lost the will to live.

I live in an area with beautiful countryside, well out of town, nowhere near a motorway, lost of quiet backroads & my car is a TD car, so am 100% of the opposite view.

As others have said on top of me, it is all about what/how/where you drive as to which you prefer.

[Billy_Whizzzz]

PixelpeepS3 said:

cerb4.5lee said:

'average' car ownership of members on here i assume is as follows:

- Petrol head owner
- enjoys the odd spirited blast down a slip road, when someone tries to take the piss, off a roundabout and having more power than average available for
when the circumstances allow.
- understands that owning a higher performance car will mean higher fuel bills, but it's nice to have your cake and eat it sometimes.
- doesn't have a bottomless bank balance for maintenance / fuel / road tax
- can't afford/justify to run/own more than one car so its going to be an all rounder, one that ticks 'most' of the boxes
- higher than average driving skills but not a driving god
- has a job mon-fri which involves driving to and from, averaging 8-25mph on that commute
- prefers a predictable drive whilst not driving for pleasure
- eats the odd sandwich or sips a coffee/tea whilst driving (loud gasp from the safety stacey (lacey?) brigade)
- gets to spend maybe 3% of their total time in the car driving purely for pleasure

Umm no. I couldn’t be further from your stereotype. Who would you ‘assume’ that is the demographic of the people that dip into this site?

[MattOz]

I've always bought the manual version of a vehicle if it was an option. Give me manual over auto or DCT every time. However, I've had a few cars that have been either SMG or Auto because a manual 'box wasn't an option. My current Alpina D3 is an auto and it's excellent. I have no hankering after a manual in this one. The Alpina software on the ZF8 is spot on. Gear changes up and down are instant and smooth. I like it.

[RobM77]

Billy_Whizzzz said:

PixelpeepS3 said:

cerb4.5lee said:

'average' car ownership of members on here i assume is as follows:

- Petrol head owner
- enjoys the odd spirited blast down a slip road, when someone tries to take the piss, off a roundabout and having more power than average available for
when the circumstances allow.
- understands that owning a higher performance car will mean higher fuel bills, but it's nice to have your cake and eat it sometimes.
- doesn't have a bottomless bank balance for maintenance / fuel / road tax
- can't afford/justify to run/own more than one car so its going to be an all rounder, one that ticks 'most' of the boxes
- higher than average driving skills but not a driving god
- has a job mon-fri which involves driving to and from, averaging 8-25mph on that commute
- prefers a predictable drive whilst not driving for pleasure
- eats the odd sandwich or sips a coffee/tea whilst driving (loud gasp from the safety stacey (lacey?) brigade)
- gets to spend maybe 3% of their total time in the car driving purely for pleasure

Umm no. I couldn’t be further from your stereotype. Who would you ‘assume’ that is the demographic of the people that dip into this site?

He did say "average".

[RobM77]

smashy said:

I just do not think there is any driving for pleasure1 left in the uk its all a fantasy land dream like a car advert with just one car on the road too many yellow boxes ,too many cameras too many lorries too many cars very very sad ........re auto ..manual is sooooo 20th century

Depends where you live and work. As you can see in my original post, my commute is mostly twisty A, B and C roads with no traffic. No yellow boxes and very rarely any cameras. Yes, I do get lorries and SUVs, but I can normally overtake safely.

[RichardJS]

Pica-Pica said:

RichardJS said:

Yes - that's what I do. I tried using the temporary manual mode as you described but found it unpredictable about when it went back into Auto. It seemed to me - but I'm not sure - that it reverts to Auto when the gear you've manually selected is the same as it would be in Auto.

If you select manual, then floor it, it will wait for your choosing to manually change up, or change at the rev limiter. If you choose manual and accelerate gently it will hold that gear until the acceleration is similar to what D would be then switch to D. In my experience it is not unpredictable, but highly predictable. That is, you choose manual, it thinks ‘yes, this feels like a manual drive mode’ and then when your driving relaxes, it thinks ‘OK, feels like we should be in auto-drive mode now’. Of course, if you want fully manual, then you can select that.

That's more or less what I said - but in practice I found myself not knowing whether it was still in manual or had gone back into D, without looking at the indicator. Personally, I prefer to use permanent manual if I want manual so that I know for certain what it's going to do (or not do). But perhaps I should have persevered and tried it more often.

[Poppiecock]

RichardJS said:

I can't believe that you're serious?!

If you don't understand the importance of balancing a car on the accelerator then I suggest that you watch this video by Reg Local, which explains it very well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGJLNKQxZ98

I am being serious. A modern car has such a high threshold that it's highly unlikely you're going to be balancing anything. The car is, in almost all circumstances, going to have so much in hand that it doesn't matter if you're driving FWD, RWD or AWD - you'll not notice unless you're doing something silly to provoke the car - trail braking or lift-off to provoke oversteer.

And that video clip is one of the most boring and anoraky things I've ever had the misfortune to watch.

[Pica-Pica]

RichardJS said:

Pica-Pica said:

RichardJS said:

Yes - that's what I do. I tried using the temporary manual mode as you described but found it unpredictable about when it went back into Auto. It seemed to me - but I'm not sure - that it reverts to Auto when the gear you've manually selected is the same as it would be in Auto.

If you select manual, then floor it, it will wait for your choosing to manually change up, or change at the rev limiter. If you choose manual and accelerate gently it will hold that gear until the acceleration is similar to what D would be then switch to D. In my experience it is not unpredictable, but highly predictable. That is, you choose manual, it thinks ‘yes, this feels like a manual drive mode’ and then when your driving relaxes, it thinks ‘OK, feels like we should be in auto-drive mode now’. Of course, if you want fully manual, then you can select that.

That's more or less what I said - but in practice I found myself not knowing whether it was still in manual or had gone back into D, without looking at the indicator. Personally, I prefer to use permanent manual if I want manual so that I know for certain what it's going to do (or not do). But perhaps I should have persevered and tried it more often.

Well, yes, I admit I do glance down to see when it goes back to D, more our of interest than necessity. Again, yes, on bendy switchbacks, I like to go to manual for a bit of fun - so knock left for sport then paddles to make it fully manual and use fixed-grip steering.

[RichardJS]

Poppiecock said:

RichardJS said:

I can't believe that you're serious?!

If you don't understand the importance of balancing a car on the accelerator then I suggest that you watch this video by Reg Local, which explains it very well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGJLNKQxZ98

I am being serious. A modern car has such a high threshold that it's highly unlikely you're going to be balancing anything. The car is, in almost all circumstances, going to have so much in hand that it doesn't matter if you're driving FWD, RWD or AWD - you'll not notice unless you're doing something silly to provoke the car - trail braking or lift-off to provoke oversteer.

And that video clip is one of the most boring and anoraky things I've ever had the misfortune to watch.

I feel very sorry for you if that's what you really think as you're missing out on a great deal if you want to enjoy driving - and I assume you want to enjoy driving as you're on this forum. My wife would express the same opinion as you but she doesn't claim to enjoy driving.

[Poppiecock]

RichardJS said:

I feel very sorry for you if that's what you really think as you're missing out on a great deal if you want to enjoy driving - and I assume you want to enjoy driving as you're on this forum. My wife would express the same opinion as you but she doesn't claim to enjoy driving.

I drive 35k miles a year in a luxo-barge. Have been driving autos for 10 years now.

Also drive a lot of track miles and sometimes take the track car out on the roads.

There is little pleasure in 99% of the driving I do and my car has much higher limits than are sensible to explore on the road.

Driving was fun when I had a car with a 2.0 twin-cam petrol, skinny 185 tyres and a manual gearbox. But there was much less traffic 20 years ago. My daily has, I think, 245 tyres and only 220bhp. You're really not going to be troubling that setup at all.

[RobM77]

Poppiecock said:

RichardJS said:

I feel very sorry for you if that's what you really think as you're missing out on a great deal if you want to enjoy driving - and I assume you want to enjoy driving as you're on this forum. My wife would express the same opinion as you but she doesn't claim to enjoy driving.

I drive 35k miles a year in a luxo-barge. Have been driving autos for 10 years now.

Also drive a lot of track miles and sometimes take the track car out on the roads.

There is little pleasure in 99% of the driving I do and my car has much higher limits than are sensible to explore on the road.

Driving was fun when I had a car with a 2.0 twin-cam petrol, skinny 185 tyres and a manual gearbox. But there was much less traffic 20 years ago. My daily has, I think, 245 tyres and only 220bhp. You're really not going to be troubling that setup at all.

Balance applies at any speed in any corner, regardless of slip angle.

By the way, I’m assuming by “the limit” you actually mean “the slip angle that gives peak lateral centripetal force”, because there’s no such thing as a ‘limit’ with a step change. Once you understand this principle it becomes obvious that driving techniques often associated with track driving, like balancing a car through a corner to manage slip angles, actually apply at any speed. Yes, at 20mph through a 70mph corner, you can still balance the car, because that car still has measurable slip angles. This is both a source of pleasure (as you control the car) and of safety (as you stay as far away from the peak slip angle as possible, just as a racer stays at the peak slip angle).

[Pica-Pica]

RichardJS said:

Poppiecock said:

RichardJS said:

I can't believe that you're serious?!

If you don't understand the importance of balancing a car on the accelerator then I suggest that you watch this video by Reg Local, which explains it very well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGJLNKQxZ98

I am being serious. A modern car has such a high threshold that it's highly unlikely you're going to be balancing anything. The car is, in almost all circumstances, going to have so much in hand that it doesn't matter if you're driving FWD, RWD or AWD - you'll not notice unless you're doing something silly to provoke the car - trail braking or lift-off to provoke oversteer.

And that video clip is one of the most boring and anoraky things I've ever had the misfortune to watch.

I feel very sorry for you if that's what you really think as you're missing out on a great deal if you want to enjoy driving - and I assume you want to enjoy driving as you're on this forum. My wife would express the same opinion as you but she doesn't claim to enjoy driving.

The video clip is detailed, if a little over-descriptive for those that already know most of it. The important point (as can be seen in the comments), is that you should finish braking before turning. Also that the point of pressing the accelerator is not primarily to accelerate the car, but to counteract the deceleration that is inevitable as the front tyres are turned. However, yes, modern cars are so well designed so as to maintain grip and direction in the clumsiest of hands. They are also designed to gradually increase the discomfort to the driver long before the car becomes unsettled. There have been the odd occasions when I have encountered a corner that tightens unexpectedly (yes, poor advanced observation on my part), and you start to think, st, but the car just grips and holds the selected line - often with little tyre squeal.

On a side issue, the overtakes were fine, but on a road like that I would like to see some warning given to the overtaken car, many of whom would be watching the scenery not the rear view mirror, and may wander slightly, especially with no centre line.

[Poppiecock]

RobM77 said:

Balance applies at any speed in any corner, regardless of slip angle.

By the way, I’m assuming by “the limit” you actually mean “the slip angle that gives peak lateral centripetal force”, because there’s no such thing as a ‘limit’ with a step change. Once you understand this principle it becomes obvious that driving techniques often associated with track driving, like balancing a car through a corner to manage slip angles, actually apply at any speed. Yes, at 20mph through a 70mph corner, you can still balance the car, because that car still has measurable slip angles. This is both a source of pleasure (as you control the car) and of safety (as you stay as far away from the peak slip angle as possible, just as a racer stays at the peak slip angle).

Sorry, but that's just ridiculous.

Do you honestly believe you're dong this when popping out to Tesco?

[CustardOnChips]

RobM77 said:

Balance applies at any speed in any corner, regardless of slip angle.

By the way, I’m assuming by “the limit” you actually mean “the slip angle that gives peak lateral centripetal force”, because there’s no such thing as a ‘limit’ with a step change. Once you understand this principle it becomes obvious that driving techniques often associated with track driving, like balancing a car through a corner to manage slip angles, actually apply at any speed. Yes, at 20mph through a 70mph corner, you can still balance the car, because that car still has measurable slip angles. This is both a source of pleasure (as you control the car) and of safety (as you stay as far away from the peak slip angle as possible, just as a racer stays at the peak slip angle).

I think PH has reached peak bullst!

[RobM77]

CustardOnChips said:

RobM77 said:

Balance applies at any speed in any corner, regardless of slip angle.

By the way, I’m assuming by “the limit” you actually mean “the slip angle that gives peak lateral centripetal force”, because there’s no such thing as a ‘limit’ with a step change. Once you understand this principle it becomes obvious that driving techniques often associated with track driving, like balancing a car through a corner to manage slip angles, actually apply at any speed. Yes, at 20mph through a 70mph corner, you can still balance the car, because that car still has measurable slip angles. This is both a source of pleasure (as you control the car) and of safety (as you stay as far away from the peak slip angle as possible, just as a racer stays at the peak slip angle).

I think PH has reached peak bullst!

Which bit do you think is bullst?! I can happily expand on any of the above if required; it's pretty basic stuff that's well understood.

Edited by RobM77 on Friday 26th July 13:29

[RobM77]

Poppiecock said:

RobM77 said:

Balance applies at any speed in any corner, regardless of slip angle.

By the way, I’m assuming by “the limit” you actually mean “the slip angle that gives peak lateral centripetal force”, because there’s no such thing as a ‘limit’ with a step change. Once you understand this principle it becomes obvious that driving techniques often associated with track driving, like balancing a car through a corner to manage slip angles, actually apply at any speed. Yes, at 20mph through a 70mph corner, you can still balance the car, because that car still has measurable slip angles. This is both a source of pleasure (as you control the car) and of safety (as you stay as far away from the peak slip angle as possible, just as a racer stays at the peak slip angle).

Sorry, but that's just ridiculous.

Do you honestly believe you're dong this when popping out to Tesco?

Yes; why’s that ridiculous? If I'm driving somewhere, I'm enjoying the process and yes, that includes balancing the car in the corners. I love driving. I also love music, and as any musician will tell you, when they listen to songs on the radio they hear the key changes, time signatures, harmonies etc. Do you find that ridiculous too? That’s what it is to be interested and have a passion in something.

Surely there’s something like that for you? It may not be driving, but you must have an interest or passion in life?

Edited by RobM77 on Friday 26th July 13:26