RE: BMW releases Z4 M roadster
Discussion
DoctorD said:
Personally I'm intrested in the Alpina S because that cures the Z4 of it's weakest assets namely steering and use of run-flats
I agree with the comment on the runflats, but having driven the Alpina i felt its steering was a bit lifeless. I can't see its an improvement over the basic Z4 - doesn't it use the same electromechanical setup?
The M on the other hand introduces a new hydraulic system. I think this might have a lot of promise and put the issue to bed once and for all. We'll have to wait for the test drives.
The MX5 may not be in the same power league, but if you want to experience steering done well (its almost sublime imho), look no further than the little Mazda. Oh, and I think its a hydraulic system too (at least prior to the just-released Mk3)
There's a lot of misunderstanding about steering, what's good and what's bad.
Steering first and foremost has to be precise and accurate, so that you turn into a bend and with minimal further input the car tracks along the chosen course. I remember owning an E39 535i with the recirculating ball steering and it was horrible, and it took 3 or 4 steering inputs to track around a corner. But of course the accuracy of a car's steering can also be a function of the front suspension geometry. The rack and pinion steering in the 528i of the same period was so much better.
Then of course there is steering responsiveness. Possessing a steering that is slow enough at high-speeds to aid stability but fast enough at slow speeds to aid agility. Some of the so called 'great' steering cars are only really great when tracking around a corner(i.e. Porsche 911 or Elise), but not so good when travelling in a straight line.
And finally the most often talked about steering feel. Some people are obsessed with the romantic notion of feeling every bump and ridge on the road through the steering, but if truth be told you actually need to feel that through the seat of your pants and not the steering. The steering needs to provide an uncorrupted sense of the tyres slip angle so that you can begin to feel the slip angle increasing from the its natural zero degrees to the point where the tyre exceeds it's range (usually 5-10 degrees) and begins to slide.
So for me a good steering is one that is precise, responsive and able to convey the stability of grip beneath the tyres.
The problem with the standard Z4 (for me) is the artificial change in steering resistance due to the electronic power assistance and therefore the superfluous feedback this creates. The steering is 'noisy' but much of that noise is irrelevant to the driving process. The Alpina Roadster on the other hand has a much 'quieter' steering as well as being heavier and this provides greater confidence in the signals being received and greater consistency of feel. There's nothing wrong with the accuracy or respsonsiveness of the Z4's steering, just the way it feels when pressing on.
I agree that the hydraulic system in the Z4M should be much better than the regular Z4, but not necessarily much better than the Alpina Roadster which is on a par with most good hydraulic systems anyway.
>> Edited by DoctorD on Friday 28th October 09:33
Steering first and foremost has to be precise and accurate, so that you turn into a bend and with minimal further input the car tracks along the chosen course. I remember owning an E39 535i with the recirculating ball steering and it was horrible, and it took 3 or 4 steering inputs to track around a corner. But of course the accuracy of a car's steering can also be a function of the front suspension geometry. The rack and pinion steering in the 528i of the same period was so much better.
Then of course there is steering responsiveness. Possessing a steering that is slow enough at high-speeds to aid stability but fast enough at slow speeds to aid agility. Some of the so called 'great' steering cars are only really great when tracking around a corner(i.e. Porsche 911 or Elise), but not so good when travelling in a straight line.
And finally the most often talked about steering feel. Some people are obsessed with the romantic notion of feeling every bump and ridge on the road through the steering, but if truth be told you actually need to feel that through the seat of your pants and not the steering. The steering needs to provide an uncorrupted sense of the tyres slip angle so that you can begin to feel the slip angle increasing from the its natural zero degrees to the point where the tyre exceeds it's range (usually 5-10 degrees) and begins to slide.
So for me a good steering is one that is precise, responsive and able to convey the stability of grip beneath the tyres.
The problem with the standard Z4 (for me) is the artificial change in steering resistance due to the electronic power assistance and therefore the superfluous feedback this creates. The steering is 'noisy' but much of that noise is irrelevant to the driving process. The Alpina Roadster on the other hand has a much 'quieter' steering as well as being heavier and this provides greater confidence in the signals being received and greater consistency of feel. There's nothing wrong with the accuracy or respsonsiveness of the Z4's steering, just the way it feels when pressing on.
I agree that the hydraulic system in the Z4M should be much better than the regular Z4, but not necessarily much better than the Alpina Roadster which is on a par with most good hydraulic systems anyway.
>> Edited by DoctorD on Friday 28th October 09:33
Hard to buy into all of the above when it is written by someone who also believes that a Boxster S is a crap sports car. Yeh, right.
[quote=DoctorD]
I found the boxster with it's sit up and beg driving position and flat dash was not a very nice place to spend time. It tries too hard to be a sports car yet fails at being a roadster. If I had wanted a sportscar for going really fast, then I'd have stuck with my 911, but the Boxster was neither fish nor fowl.
The Z4 on the other hand is a 'proper' roadster, you can sit back and cruise enjoying the sunshine or you can drive it quickly. When I see a boxster I expect a girl to be driving it, whereas with the Z4 I expect it to be a guy.
[quote=DoctorD]
I found the boxster with it's sit up and beg driving position and flat dash was not a very nice place to spend time. It tries too hard to be a sports car yet fails at being a roadster. If I had wanted a sportscar for going really fast, then I'd have stuck with my 911, but the Boxster was neither fish nor fowl.
The Z4 on the other hand is a 'proper' roadster, you can sit back and cruise enjoying the sunshine or you can drive it quickly. When I see a boxster I expect a girl to be driving it, whereas with the Z4 I expect it to be a guy.
Hendry said:Not that I'll ever buy one (a Mondeo-outselling BMW), bu they are a heck of a lot better than the Mondeos they outsell.
As a PHer I am always hoping to see great cars from any manufacturer. Never been attracted to BMWs, mainly because of the image and the fact that these days the Ultimate Driving Machine strapline is exactly that - you can't make a car that outsells the Mondeo exiting and special all the time.
The Z4 is one of the ugliest sportscar bodies ever, with a truly awful American looking interior and a fantastic engine.
The Boxster is classy but very very boring looking, also with an incredible engine.
The new SLK looks nowhere near as nice as the MK1 version, and is always driven by blonde women in sunglasses (not that there's anything wrong with that).
The Elise is beautiful but way overpriced and under-powered and needs the V6 everyones gagging for.
TVR's look absolutely freakin incredible, sound incredible, and need a new engine every few thousand miles (that the customer has to pay for apparently)
The first manufacturer to offer excitement, beauty, power, and reliability in the £30-35k sector will clean up, but I'm not holding my breath!
The Boxster is classy but very very boring looking, also with an incredible engine.
The new SLK looks nowhere near as nice as the MK1 version, and is always driven by blonde women in sunglasses (not that there's anything wrong with that).
The Elise is beautiful but way overpriced and under-powered and needs the V6 everyones gagging for.
TVR's look absolutely freakin incredible, sound incredible, and need a new engine every few thousand miles (that the customer has to pay for apparently)
The first manufacturer to offer excitement, beauty, power, and reliability in the £30-35k sector will clean up, but I'm not holding my breath!
guitarman said:
The Z4 is one of the ugliest sportscar bodies ever, with a truly awful American looking interior and a fantastic engine.
The Boxster is classy but very very boring looking, also with an incredible engine.
The new SLK looks nowhere near as nice as the MK1 version, and is always driven by blonde women in sunglasses (not that there's anything wrong with that).
The Elise is beautiful but way overpriced and under-powered and needs the V6 everyones gagging for.
TVR's look absolutely freakin incredible, sound incredible, and need a new engine every few thousand miles (that the customer has to pay for apparently)
The first manufacturer to offer excitement, beauty, power, and reliability in the £30-35k sector will clean up, but I'm not holding my breath!
SPOT ON
(though I think you are being a little harsh about the Z4 - its not THAT bad and perhaps you might say its more "masculine" as a result)
TVR could be this company if ONLY it would VISIBLY fix the Speed 6 issues (either by redeveloping the engine or sourcing a complete replacement)
The Tamora could probably be THAT car too.
>> Edited by Merefield on Friday 28th October 13:46
There's a video of the Z4M driving around on some nice mountain roads. Still not sure about the engine sound though, my M3 CSL sounds a heck of a lot better than that.
www.auto.cz/media/?video=oficial/bmw_z4m/bmz4m.wmv
Oh really? Let me just see, I've owned a dozen or more Porsches, raced in the Pirelli Porsche championship many years ago. Used to own a GT3 (and knew how to drive it). Can lap Donington in an M3 CSL in under 1 min 20s etc etc, so I do have a little knowledge about making a car go quickly.
I didn't say the Boxster was crap, just that it was disappointing. The steering felt a little numb after the 911, the chassis became a little one dimensional when pushed really hard. The brakes were poor for a Porsche lacking both feel and consistent retardation. The chassis was too stiff with the M030 sports suspension and didn't key into the road surface effectively, a situation that most pronounced when driving in the wet. It didn't cruise very well, lacked torque and could be hounded more easily by lesser cars. The wind deflector wasn't particularly effective and led to lots of cabin noise and a bloody cold head if the ambient temperature wasn't above 20 degrees. Need I go on?
I had my reasons for being disappointed by my Boxster, not least when I came to sell it after 18 months and only 3,000 miles and the best offer I could get was £12,000 less than I had paid for it.
The new 987 Boxster is much better, although some of my concerns remain valid. Unfortunately some people seem besotted with the Boxster and believe it to be by far the best sports car ever, it's not. It's a very good sports car that will flatter the average driver but is bettered in many respects by other sports cars (not least in its own stable). I am sure Porsche will evolve the Boxster design as they have with the 911 and eventually it may live up to it's reputation. Perhaps the Cayman may be an illustration of that achievement.
I enjoyed owning a Boxster S some of the time and even appeared on Channel 4's Driven programme in it, but I prefer to take the 'rose tinted' spectacles off and see a car for what it really is.
www.auto.cz/media/?video=oficial/bmw_z4m/bmz4m.wmv
vinceh said:
Hard to buy into all of the above when it is written by someone who also believes that a Boxster S is a crap sports car. Yeh, right.
Oh really? Let me just see, I've owned a dozen or more Porsches, raced in the Pirelli Porsche championship many years ago. Used to own a GT3 (and knew how to drive it). Can lap Donington in an M3 CSL in under 1 min 20s etc etc, so I do have a little knowledge about making a car go quickly.
I didn't say the Boxster was crap, just that it was disappointing. The steering felt a little numb after the 911, the chassis became a little one dimensional when pushed really hard. The brakes were poor for a Porsche lacking both feel and consistent retardation. The chassis was too stiff with the M030 sports suspension and didn't key into the road surface effectively, a situation that most pronounced when driving in the wet. It didn't cruise very well, lacked torque and could be hounded more easily by lesser cars. The wind deflector wasn't particularly effective and led to lots of cabin noise and a bloody cold head if the ambient temperature wasn't above 20 degrees. Need I go on?
I had my reasons for being disappointed by my Boxster, not least when I came to sell it after 18 months and only 3,000 miles and the best offer I could get was £12,000 less than I had paid for it.
The new 987 Boxster is much better, although some of my concerns remain valid. Unfortunately some people seem besotted with the Boxster and believe it to be by far the best sports car ever, it's not. It's a very good sports car that will flatter the average driver but is bettered in many respects by other sports cars (not least in its own stable). I am sure Porsche will evolve the Boxster design as they have with the 911 and eventually it may live up to it's reputation. Perhaps the Cayman may be an illustration of that achievement.
I enjoyed owning a Boxster S some of the time and even appeared on Channel 4's Driven programme in it, but I prefer to take the 'rose tinted' spectacles off and see a car for what it really is.
guitarman said:
Agreed, the Tuscan could definately be that car, with an out-sourced engine.
Indeed, the Tuscan too.
However, I chose the Tamora as its the "value" model at the "bottom" of the range.
I might add that TVR's have an interior German cars can't even dream of having.
And lets not even START on the engine noises!
>> Edited by Merefield on Friday 28th October 16:30
StuB said:
And lets not even START on the engine noises!
Have you heard an M with Race Eisenmans fitted?, or the induction of a CSL at full blat?, not a bad comparison IMHO.
I wonder what Schnitzer and Alpina will do with the MZ4 too?
No, if i'm honest. Good call.
I hope Alpina don't drop their version of the Z4. Indeed I hope they enhance it in response.
Merefield said:
I hope Alpina don't drop their version of the Z4. Indeed I hope they enhance it in response.
Unfortunately Alpina already have canned the Roadster. BMW supplied them with the engine block (which is from the E36 M3) and it seems BMW have run out of them. Surprise, surprise..
As an owner of a current Z4 and previous owner of numerous TVRs including Griff 500, chimaera etc I must say that the Z4 is a much better car dynamically than you all give it credit for.
Personally I like the looks, long bonnet, short boot, low slung etc and it rides better than any of the TVRs I have had before. This is in spite of the run flats which everyone knows has spolit the ride a little. The only other critisicm is that the electric steering can sometimes feel a little vague, however the "sport" button does seem to rectify this.
I think the Z4M would be a cracking car and will probably go down that route once they come out.
I have always been tempted by a T350 but having owned a Cerb Speed Six, I havent had the confidence in either the car or its residuals. Im not a fan of the current tuscan so I wouldnt consider it either.( but I do own a 1970 V6 Tuscan). I am not knocking TVR at all, its just the only other marque that I can compare the Z4 to. I havent owned a boxster but didnt enjoy my test drive in one and also I dont like the look of them. My mum has an SLK 350 which is a fast but not very exciting car. Overall the Z4 was the best drop top 2 seater for me .
I am only talking from experience and personal opinion and think the Z4M is a good thing. Im sure everyone else differs but to comment and knock a car which half the people here seem to know very little about seems strange.
>> Edited by obiwonkeyblokey on Friday 4th November 09:52
Personally I like the looks, long bonnet, short boot, low slung etc and it rides better than any of the TVRs I have had before. This is in spite of the run flats which everyone knows has spolit the ride a little. The only other critisicm is that the electric steering can sometimes feel a little vague, however the "sport" button does seem to rectify this.
I think the Z4M would be a cracking car and will probably go down that route once they come out.
I have always been tempted by a T350 but having owned a Cerb Speed Six, I havent had the confidence in either the car or its residuals. Im not a fan of the current tuscan so I wouldnt consider it either.( but I do own a 1970 V6 Tuscan). I am not knocking TVR at all, its just the only other marque that I can compare the Z4 to. I havent owned a boxster but didnt enjoy my test drive in one and also I dont like the look of them. My mum has an SLK 350 which is a fast but not very exciting car. Overall the Z4 was the best drop top 2 seater for me .
I am only talking from experience and personal opinion and think the Z4M is a good thing. Im sure everyone else differs but to comment and knock a car which half the people here seem to know very little about seems strange.
>> Edited by obiwonkeyblokey on Friday 4th November 09:52
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