kawasaki ninja supercharged h2
Discussion
Lincsblokey said:
Just been given a snippet.... the press have been told 270+ bhp at the back wheel.
Game changer
Thats 400bhp/litre???!! Game changer
Not denying your source but that seems a tad optimistic for a production bike. If they went to 200/210 with room to improve i'd say aye, but 270 equates to around 300/310 at the crank!
bass gt3 said:
Lincsblokey said:
Just been given a snippet.... the press have been told 270+ bhp at the back wheel.
Game changer
Thats 400bhp/litre???!! Game changer
Not denying your source but that seems a tad optimistic for a production bike. If they went to 200/210 with room to improve i'd say aye, but 270 equates to around 300/310 at the crank!
Lincsblokey said:
bass gt3 said:
Lincsblokey said:
Just been given a snippet.... the press have been told 270+ bhp at the back wheel.
Game changer
Thats 400bhp/litre???!! Game changer
Not denying your source but that seems a tad optimistic for a production bike. If they went to 200/210 with room to improve i'd say aye, but 270 equates to around 300/310 at the crank!
And 270? fid it hard to believe, but i've been wrong plenty times before
if so, you hit the nail on the head. Game Changer. Every other superbike will be obsolete overnight
Lincsblokey said:
No, there wont be a race version. A track version maybe, but it wont have a race kit, as it wont be legal to race anywhere....
Do the rules specifically exclude/forbid forced induction?if so,i wouldn't mind betting the FIM might follow F1's lead and permit forced inductionas a means of driving the market towards smaller capacity, more fuel efficient motors. Look where the consumer car market is headed. 3 cylinders, turbo's and superchargers combined, typical 1.8 motors goingdownto 1.4 and then outperforming the older variant all driven by the manufacturers demand for F1 hybrid v6's. Some even said if F1 didn't change, they would leave.
Bikes could be next........
Based on some of the journalist statements coming out I'm wondering if there are some intentionally misleading reports to fuel speculation.
I don't see how you couldn't get 270bhp at the wheel if you can buy kits for 500bhp (crank) for a Busa. Obviously usable power is the issue as the R1 turbo owner on this forum would attest to and in that regard Kawasaki aren't amateurs, perhaps they've found a way of making it usuable.
I do find all this "we used our experience in gas turbines" to be little cringe worthy personally.
I don't see how you couldn't get 270bhp at the wheel if you can buy kits for 500bhp (crank) for a Busa. Obviously usable power is the issue as the R1 turbo owner on this forum would attest to and in that regard Kawasaki aren't amateurs, perhaps they've found a way of making it usuable.
I do find all this "we used our experience in gas turbines" to be little cringe worthy personally.
bass gt3 said:
Lincsblokey said:
No, there wont be a race version. A track version maybe, but it wont have a race kit, as it wont be legal to race anywhere....
Do the rules specifically exclude/forbid forced induction?if so,i wouldn't mind betting the FIM might follow F1's lead and permit forced inductionas a means of driving the market towards smaller capacity, more fuel efficient motors. Look where the consumer car market is headed. 3 cylinders, turbo's and superchargers combined, typical 1.8 motors goingdownto 1.4 and then outperforming the older variant all driven by the manufacturers demand for F1 hybrid v6's. Some even said if F1 didn't change, they would leave.
Bikes could be next........
However, if all the manufacturers went down this route, WSBK could get interesting..
bass gt3 said:
Do the rules specifically exclude/forbid forced induction?
if so,i wouldn't mind betting the FIM might follow F1's lead and permit forced inductionas a means of driving the market towards smaller capacity, more fuel efficient motors. Look where the consumer car market is headed. 3 cylinders, turbo's and superchargers combined, typical 1.8 motors goingdownto 1.4 and then outperforming the older variant all driven by the manufacturers demand for F1 hybrid v6's. Some even said if F1 didn't change, they would leave.
Bikes could be next........
I don't know about production racing, but in prototypes there was a glut of supercharged bikes in the very late 1930s, but they were banned when racing resumed post WW2. As far as I know that still stands, but I wouldn't be surprised if it changed with the introduction of production forced induction, which I can see coming in more mainstream. if so,i wouldn't mind betting the FIM might follow F1's lead and permit forced inductionas a means of driving the market towards smaller capacity, more fuel efficient motors. Look where the consumer car market is headed. 3 cylinders, turbo's and superchargers combined, typical 1.8 motors goingdownto 1.4 and then outperforming the older variant all driven by the manufacturers demand for F1 hybrid v6's. Some even said if F1 didn't change, they would leave.
Bikes could be next........
As for this, 270bhp at the wheel will surely need bespoke tyres, tyres fixing technology, chains, gearboxes and all sorts? Going to be expensive little devils to run until the tyre and brake companies catch up, as it'll be OEM only, a la Veyron tyres!
Prof Prolapse said:
I don't see how you couldn't get 270bhp at the wheel if you can buy kits for 500bhp (crank) for a Busa. Obviously usable power is the issue as the R1 turbo owner on this forum would attest to and in that regard Kawasaki aren't amateurs, perhaps they've found a way of making it usuable.
Thats the interesting part.Compressors, regardless of how they're driven have quite a narrow operating range.Superchargersruninthe low rpm due to being mechanically driven whereas turbo's require exhaust gases to run hence come alive in the upper rpm range. You only need to look at turbo cars characteristics to see this,or go to the Garrett site and look at the compressor maps to see the narrow operating ranges of their turbo's. This is fine for a 2k to 6-7k rev range in a car, but it'll be interesting to see how Kawasaki have managed to make the compressor functionover a bike engines typical rev range. Even 2k to 10k is way outside any compressors range, let alone 14k as most superbikes rev to now. Useablepower won't be an issue as it's simple to regulate the amount of boost vs rpm (something Mr Turbo R1 should look in to!!). Solooking at the compressor,it's only really going to functionat a certain rpmband. outidethis,itwon't be pushing enough air to make a difference,orit won't be able to spin fast enough to supply the motor with air that isn't superheated by the compression process. Which is another issue, you can't just spin a compressor faster and faster, it will just overheat the air and destroy the motor. Especially as it looksnot to be intercooled? Once again, narrow operating window.
The other problem is forced induction motors can't run the high static compression ratios typical in high performance N/A motors. Hence the off boost performance suffers until the boost rises sufficiently to compensate.
Can't wait to see what they've done though....
Lincsblokey said:
. the press have been told 270+ bhp at the back wheel.
Be interesting to know a proposed price. The £12-13k Superbike price point is bit knackered but there was always a theory that plenty would be prepared to pay big bucks for a Japanese silly bike (if litre bikes are Superbikes, Hayabusas and ZZR14 are Hyperbikes - what the hell is this thing?). Honda faffing about possibly maybe, maybe with their V4 might have left a market gap for people who want two wheeled McLaren / Pagani type thing without resorting to a Ducati.Also be good to know their tyre partner (I'm guessing Bridgestone) because it will need special rubber.
I reckon this motor is " Capable" of 270 bhp but it'll be released with 200ish. Like others have said, there's so much peripheral technology thats not there yet that a 270 bhp bike would require. But as the future comes,so does technology and it gives Kawasaki years of headline power increases to stave off the competition.
And i'm betting forced induction will be permitted by the FIM in the near future. If the manufacturers start down this road,it's a Fait d'Complis as far as the FIM are concerned. Otherwise, there'll be no bikes to race if all the salesflooor machines are force fed. Just wait until Honda follow suit....
And i'm betting forced induction will be permitted by the FIM in the near future. If the manufacturers start down this road,it's a Fait d'Complis as far as the FIM are concerned. Otherwise, there'll be no bikes to race if all the salesflooor machines are force fed. Just wait until Honda follow suit....
bass gt3 said:
Thats the interesting part.
Compressors, regardless of how they're driven have quite a narrow operating range.Superchargersruninthe low rpm due to being mechanically driven whereas turbo's require exhaust gases to run hence come alive in the upper rpm range. You only need to look at turbo cars characteristics to see this,or go to the Garrett site and look at the compressor maps to see the narrow operating ranges of their turbo's. This is fine for a 2k to 6-7k rev range in a car, but it'll be interesting to see how Kawasaki have managed to make the compressor functionover a bike engines typical rev range. Even 2k to 10k is way outside any compressors range, let alone 14k as most superbikes rev to now. Useablepower won't be an issue as it's simple to regulate the amount of boost vs rpm (something Mr Turbo R1 should look in to!!). Solooking at the compressor,it's only really going to functionat a certain rpmband. outidethis,itwon't be pushing enough air to make a difference,orit won't be able to spin fast enough to supply the motor with air that isn't superheated by the compression process. Which is another issue, you can't just spin a compressor faster and faster, it will just overheat the air and destroy the motor. Especially as it looksnot to be intercooled? Once again, narrow operating window.
The other problem is forced induction motors can't run the high static compression ratios typical in high performance N/A motors. Hence the off boost performance suffers until the boost rises sufficiently to compensate.
Can't wait to see what they've done though....
Not going to pretend to be an expert. But surely you could engineer your way around this with things like variable vane turbocharging could help with this RPM range? Compressors, regardless of how they're driven have quite a narrow operating range.Superchargersruninthe low rpm due to being mechanically driven whereas turbo's require exhaust gases to run hence come alive in the upper rpm range. You only need to look at turbo cars characteristics to see this,or go to the Garrett site and look at the compressor maps to see the narrow operating ranges of their turbo's. This is fine for a 2k to 6-7k rev range in a car, but it'll be interesting to see how Kawasaki have managed to make the compressor functionover a bike engines typical rev range. Even 2k to 10k is way outside any compressors range, let alone 14k as most superbikes rev to now. Useablepower won't be an issue as it's simple to regulate the amount of boost vs rpm (something Mr Turbo R1 should look in to!!). Solooking at the compressor,it's only really going to functionat a certain rpmband. outidethis,itwon't be pushing enough air to make a difference,orit won't be able to spin fast enough to supply the motor with air that isn't superheated by the compression process. Which is another issue, you can't just spin a compressor faster and faster, it will just overheat the air and destroy the motor. Especially as it looksnot to be intercooled? Once again, narrow operating window.
The other problem is forced induction motors can't run the high static compression ratios typical in high performance N/A motors. Hence the off boost performance suffers until the boost rises sufficiently to compensate.
Can't wait to see what they've done though....
Prof Prolapse said:
Not going to pretend to be an expert. But surely you could engineer your way around this with things like variable vane turbocharging could help with this RPM range?
Variable vanes only work in extending a compressor's rev range to a point,maybe 2000rpm max. Porsche 911 Turbo is a good example. Early models ran a big single turbo and it was so laggy that it was a pig to drive,especially the off/on boost characteristic. Later models went to two smaller turbos and performance/driveability improved, especially off boost, but even with the VV turbo's, whilst the motor revs to 8k i think, max torque is way lower down and this is where it's best to change gear for max acceleration. And even the new 911T uses an overboost function to improve power but it's limited in time duration because of the heat build up. The vanes will improve a low end response typically, allowing a bigger compressortobe used than would be good without the variable vanes but they're no substitutefor a bigger compressor. Which hurts low end performance/driveability.Other options are twin turbo's like the old Subaru Legacy used or compound turbo's where the outlet of a smaller turbo feeds a bigger turbo but you need complex gas channeling methods to run this.
Fact is, the actual size of the turbine is the limiting factor in compressor performance. If it's big, it's not pushing enough air off map whereas if it's small, it's quick to respond but goes into over drive and out of the compressor efficiency zone very quickly and just becomes a heatpump that will destroy the motor in double time. Even on a moderately force fed car, you'd be amazed at the temps coming out of the compressor, hence intercoolers and waterspray/water injection being favoutites in the forced induction field. As you might guess, i love the technology of forced induction and used to build very hairy Hillclimb motors so have some first hand experiece of this.
So seeing as the kwak has none of these,it'll be interesting..
Edited by bass gt3 on Monday 29th September 19:28
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