Production of the Suzuki Hayabusa has ended after 20 years
Discussion
Prof Prolapse said:
I mean, the niche of fast and comfy, has been filled with bikes like the MT family, especially MT-10(touring), S1000XR, S1000R, and to a lesser extent stuff like the GSX1000-S and Honda CB1000R. I think they're all demonstrative that this is the way to combine those attributes, albeit without the big numbers, which is now reserved to promote halo sportsbikes.
Yes I used to think like this also... what I found was that totally upright riding position of the bikes you've mentioned makes them very hard work beyond 80mph and one ends up being a complete ice cube in the winter with little or no wind protection. Also none of those bikes offer the 100+ lb ft of torque that you get from a Busa, K1300S, ZZR etc.
But you've got a point that we have more variety today than ever before.
I've always wanted a Haywagon - It always looked like a more purposeful aggressive bike in the speed wars of the day.
I went for a Blackbird, but only because they're cheaper than a Hayabusa.
I'd say if you own a tidy Hayabusa in the right colour (IMO blue or black) it'd be worth keep keeping hold of it because prices will only go up.
I went for a Blackbird, but only because they're cheaper than a Hayabusa.
I'd say if you own a tidy Hayabusa in the right colour (IMO blue or black) it'd be worth keep keeping hold of it because prices will only go up.
TheCommuter said:
Not massively scientific but a fun test to watch anyway if anyone gets a chance... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4ep4uIxhtY May or may not change your mind.
I struggle with tests like this, who actually accelerates in 6th from 60mph? And going round one corner and judging cornering ability on that! That’s like taking a bite of a Milky Bar and judging all chocolate off that. It certainly did nothing to change my mind, plus it’s two years old and litre bikes have made another huge step forward since then.
Edited to refer to what’s posted subsequently by 3DP and his experience on ownership.
Edited by graylag on Tuesday 11th December 14:45
trickywoo said:
TheCommuter said:
Sort of disagree. I owned a gsxr1000 and yes it had plenty of power but wasn't comfortable during a long run or in town traffic... I've heard other litre bikes are worse comfort wise.
I own a zzr1400 which is in the same category as a Busa, has loads of low down torque and silly top end power like the gsxr and much more comfortable with superb wind protection and handles well too. I've put a top box on it and commute every day into London and intend to do a track day next year. These bikes do loads of things well.
It is a shame that Suzuki chose not to update the Busa.
Agree with this.I own a zzr1400 which is in the same category as a Busa, has loads of low down torque and silly top end power like the gsxr and much more comfortable with superb wind protection and handles well too. I've put a top box on it and commute every day into London and intend to do a track day next year. These bikes do loads of things well.
It is a shame that Suzuki chose not to update the Busa.
I haven't ridden a Busa or 1400 but fancy one, likely a 14 in the future. It would be the torque that I would go for. The 14 makes the same torque at 4k rpm as the ZX10 does at peak. I know the 10 would be as fast in a straight line and much better handling but its hard to argue with that kind of low rpm drive.
Its a bit like the 1000 cc vs 750 debate (that has been ended now). There isn't much in it straight line flat out acceleration (they are both 10s for the standing quarter) but most people will say they prefer a 1000 for the torque.
1. Torque in isolation is irrelevant. The ZZR1400 has super long gearing as it has a low red line and therefore a long final drive ratio. The only short gears are 1st and second as they can be shorter than 1000cc sports bikes as it's mass and length mean it's less prone to wheelie.
2. They are 70kg heavier than the average 1000cc sports bike.
3. My 2010 ZZR1400, lightened by 16kg, was still slower in 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th gear roll ons than an 04 R1, side by side.
4. My 2010 ZZR1400 was murdered in top gear roll ons by a Tuono 1000 V2 at all speeds below 135mph. I had to be in 3rd gear to out accelerate it. 4th to keep up. That bike only has 125bhp.
5. My 2015 Blade has far more flexibility in 3rd gear than the ZZRs did as it can pull away in 3rd and do 150mph in 3rd. The ZZR can't and the wide ratio gearbox means it's easier to be in the wrong gear, meaning ironically having to use the gearbox more than in a smaller engined 1000cc sports bike.
The 2012 ZZR1400 is seriously quick and has more poke off the bottom, but there's no getting around the fact that 70mph is under 4k rpm in top. When you open the taps it's kicking out under 70bhp at these revs and weighs 270kg. A litre sports bike is maybe revving at 6000rpm and making 80bhp at 70mph, but is weighing 200kg, so the thrust available is higher.
As a commuter, in traffic, they kick out stupid amounts of heat due to big engines (on a hot day when the fans come on on a ZZR, you feel sick!), are heavy to paddle around and are too big for nimble, easy filtering. The 2012 on ZZR1400 is an improvement, but neither the Busas or 2010 ZZR were as comfy as my Blade, or R1.
The only real advantages they have is in pillion provision, wind protection above 150mph and their power is more accessible than litre bikes as they are less wheelie prone and flighty when you wind them on hard.
Just my opinion, but spent a lot of time on these bikes and owned them at the same time as owning other bikes for direct comparison.
My dad's 2014 ZZR that lived in my garage.
My 2010 ZZR with stablemates owned at time.
3DP said:
As a commuter, in traffic, they kick out stupid amounts of heat due to big engines (on a hot day when the fans come on on a ZZR, you feel sick!), are heavy to paddle around and are too big for nimble, easy filtering.
Sorry but my experience has been different. My old gsxr1000 was gutless at low revs and had to be in 1st gear pretty much all the time when filtering whereas my zzr has no problems from as low as 2000rpm in 2nd gear and after getting the ecu flashed I've had no excessive generation of heat. Blame Euro 4 for that... not the engine.I constantly hear people say they can't filter when on these bikes. Until 2016 I used to commute on a Blackbird and that was just as easy to filter on and could squeeze through very narrow gaps once you folded the mirrors in which you would need to do on a litre bike also. YMMV of course.
TheCommuter said:
graylag said:
It certainly did nothing to change my mind, plus it’s two years old and litre bikes have made another huge step forward since then.
2015 zx10r is irrelevant... haha ok mate.Calling me mate, makes you sound like you’re getting angry. There’s no need, I don’t like these bikes and they are ironically irrelevant.
TheCommuter said:
3DP said:
As a commuter, in traffic, they kick out stupid amounts of heat due to big engines (on a hot day when the fans come on on a ZZR, you feel sick!), are heavy to paddle around and are too big for nimble, easy filtering.
Sorry but my experience has been different. My old gsxr1000 was gutless at low revs and had to be in 1st gear pretty much all the time when filtering whereas my zzr has no problems from as low as 2000rpm in 2nd gear and after getting the ecu flashed I've had no excessive generation of heat. Blame Euro 4 for that... not the engine.I constantly hear people say they can't filter when on these bikes. Until 2016 I used to commute on a Blackbird and that was just as easy to filter on and could squeeze through very narrow gaps once you folded the mirrors in which you would need to do on a litre bike also. YMMV of course.
Again - I'm not saying these type of bikes can't do this stuff. They clearly can and are very very fast. I just believe that they are far from ideal for these tasks, for a bunch of objective reasons. I commute on a scooter as I believe nimbleness, steering lock and narrowness are far more important than even a 600cc engine, but each to their own.
Anyhoo - as originally stated. They were awesome in 99 but in 2018, just worse at everything than a modern S1000RR or 1290 Superduke GT, unless sustained 150-190mph cruising is your thing and even then an derestricted H2 SX will be considerably better.
I guess the market agrees as K1300S, ZZR1400 and Hayabusa are all discontinued or moribund. Like 600s. Ace at their peak but no real reason to own one now, as their USPs have been trumped and their shortcomings remain.
3DP has in my opinion summed it all up pretty well. They’re still great bikes and wonderful achievements but now superseded by today’s offerings.
I’ve a 1290GT which is great but I miss the Busa when hammering it down the autobahn. I’m sure I’ll get another Busa in the future, just as a second bike.
I’ve a 1290GT which is great but I miss the Busa when hammering it down the autobahn. I’m sure I’ll get another Busa in the future, just as a second bike.
TheCommuter said:
Sorry but my experience has been different. My old gsxr1000 was gutless at low revs and had to be in 1st gear pretty much all the time when filtering whereas my zzr has no problems from as low as 2000rpm in 2nd gear and after getting the ecu flashed I've had no excessive generation of heat. Blame Euro 4 for that... not the engine.
I constantly hear people say they can't filter when on these bikes. Until 2016 I used to commute on a Blackbird and that was just as easy to filter on and could squeeze through very narrow gaps once you folded the mirrors in which you would need to do on a litre bike also. YMMV of course.
calling a GSXR1000 gutless @2000rpm, 2nd gear is a bit strong.I constantly hear people say they can't filter when on these bikes. Until 2016 I used to commute on a Blackbird and that was just as easy to filter on and could squeeze through very narrow gaps once you folded the mirrors in which you would need to do on a litre bike also. YMMV of course.
I had K3 + K5 and now L7.
3DP said:
The GSXR does 100 in 1st, the ZZR barely 75, so trickling in second is similar to trickling in 1st on a GSXR. I commuted through cities on mine including rush hour Milan and Monaco! it manages, but honestly, there are much better bikes. My 2010 ZZR was cat free and Euro 2. The 2014, Euro 3. Both kicked out a tonne of heat when the fans kick in as it's a dirty great 1.4 litre engine with a very enclosed fairing. Not only that but I found the design of the frame on the ZZR specifically, acted like a heat sink, that transferred heat straight into your femoral arteries. I have Ducatis which are known to cook your thighs and chebs, but I can say the ZZR in 30+ degrees in town is the only bike that has made me feel faint!!
Again - I'm not saying these type of bikes can't do this stuff. They clearly can and are very very fast. I just believe that they are far from ideal for these tasks, for a bunch of objective reasons. I commute on a scooter as I believe nimbleness, steering lock and narrowness are far more important than even a 600cc engine, but each to their own.
Anyhoo - as originally stated. They were awesome in 99 but in 2018, just worse at everything than a modern S1000RR or 1290 Superduke GT, unless sustained 150-190mph cruising is your thing and even then an derestricted H2 SX will be considerably better.
I guess the market agrees as K1300S, ZZR1400 and Hayabusa are all discontinued or moribund. Like 600s. Ace at their peak but no real reason to own one now, as their USPs have been trumped and their shortcomings remain.
I agree with most of what has been said but I think it’s missed a significant point. The Blackbird (the first of the “hyper sports” as they were then), the Hayabusa, the ZZR1400 and the K1300S are all bikes developed in the late ‘90s and very early ‘00s. As Pete has said, when they were launched they were a bit heavier and a bit more powerful than sports bikes of the time so gained on the swings what they lost on the roundabouts.Again - I'm not saying these type of bikes can't do this stuff. They clearly can and are very very fast. I just believe that they are far from ideal for these tasks, for a bunch of objective reasons. I commute on a scooter as I believe nimbleness, steering lock and narrowness are far more important than even a 600cc engine, but each to their own.
Anyhoo - as originally stated. They were awesome in 99 but in 2018, just worse at everything than a modern S1000RR or 1290 Superduke GT, unless sustained 150-190mph cruising is your thing and even then an derestricted H2 SX will be considerably better.
I guess the market agrees as K1300S, ZZR1400 and Hayabusa are all discontinued or moribund. Like 600s. Ace at their peak but no real reason to own one now, as their USPs have been trumped and their shortcomings remain.
Since then there has been 20 years of continued development in the 1000cc sports bike arena and nothing in the in the hyper sports arena. The H2 SX is the first toe in the water of developing a specific hyper sports bike of any manufacturer in the last 15 plus years. Even the KTM SD GT is simply a development of an existing bike (the TKM SD) with panniers and a bit of fairing.
The reducing sales of hyper bikes is just as likely to be a result of the lack of “current tech” choice as it is a result of a changing market.
Back in the ‘90s the market showed clearly that no one wanted a high performance naked bike. As a result, there were none available to buy. … or? …. Is it because there were none available to buy that no one bought one??? One look at the market now, and how the manufacturers are falling over themselves to bring the next iteration of the super naked to the market suggests that if the options are there, people will buy.
I know a large number of people who would be very interested in a bike with 175+bhp, 100+ftlb fast, nimble but stable handling, comfortable (for the average overweight middle aged man) riding position, decent weather protection plenty of gizmos, the ability to add hard luggage and to take an occasional pillion. As no manufacturer (other than this year, Kawasaki with the H2 SX) offers such a bike then it’s hardly surprising no one buys them!!!!
I sincerely hope Suzuki produce a spiritual replacement for the Hayabusa.
black-k1 said:
I know a large number of people who would be very interested in a bike with 175+bhp, 100+ftlb fast, nimble but stable handling, comfortable (for the average overweight middle aged man) riding position, decent weather protection plenty of gizmos, the ability to add hard luggage and to take an occasional pillion. As no manufacturer (other than this year, Kawasaki with the H2 SX) offers such a bike then it’s hardly surprising no one buys them!!!!
As I think has already been said, it's not really much of a gap in the market though is it? I mean besides from your 175bhp 100ft/lbs criteria (which I'd just wait another year or two to met anyway) all those boxes are ticked to a lesser or greater extent by the supernaked bikes with additional weather protection.
I mean what about the KTM 1290 superduke GT? Why does that not meet your criteria?
Prof Prolapse said:
black-k1 said:
I know a large number of people who would be very interested in a bike with 175+bhp, 100+ftlb fast, nimble but stable handling, comfortable (for the average overweight middle aged man) riding position, decent weather protection plenty of gizmos, the ability to add hard luggage and to take an occasional pillion. As no manufacturer (other than this year, Kawasaki with the H2 SX) offers such a bike then it’s hardly surprising no one buys them!!!!
As I think has already been said, it's not really much of a gap in the market though is it? I mean besides from your 175bhp 100ft/lbs criteria (which I'd just wait another year or two to met anyway) all those boxes are ticked to a lesser or greater extent by the supernaked bikes with additional weather protection.
I mean what about the KTM 1290 superduke GT? Why does that not meet your criteria?
The KTM SD GT does meet my requirements but I think you've missed my point. There has been NO hyper sports bike development in the last 15+ years which means there are no "up to date" options for hyper sports bikes. My point is that the lack of market is a result of a lack of product not a lack of demand.
black-k1 said:
The super nakeds don't fit the bill. Good weather protection will comprise high speed stability. There’s not a realistic pillion AND luggage option. Long distance comfort is not brilliant etc.
The KTM SD GT does meet my requirements but I think you've missed my point. There has been NO hyper sports bike development in the last 15+ years which means there are no "up to date" options for hyper sports bikes. My point is that the lack of market is a result of a lack of product not a lack of demand.
It’s definitely a chicken and egg debate though. Is there no development because there’s no demand? And so on. The KTM SD GT does meet my requirements but I think you've missed my point. There has been NO hyper sports bike development in the last 15+ years which means there are no "up to date" options for hyper sports bikes. My point is that the lack of market is a result of a lack of product not a lack of demand.
The reality is that the market has moved on for whatever reason be it development, technology, preference, social / economic reasons or whatever and this bike has had its day, just as the ZX12 and the BlackBird did. If there’s a niche for this then one of the manufacturers will fill it again and if it’s more than a niche then others will bring out their version soon after.
black-k1 said:
Prof Prolapse said:
black-k1 said:
I know a large number of people who would be very interested in a bike with 175+bhp, 100+ftlb fast, nimble but stable handling, comfortable (for the average overweight middle aged man) riding position, decent weather protection plenty of gizmos, the ability to add hard luggage and to take an occasional pillion. As no manufacturer (other than this year, Kawasaki with the H2 SX) offers such a bike then it’s hardly surprising no one buys them!!!!
As I think has already been said, it's not really much of a gap in the market though is it? I mean besides from your 175bhp 100ft/lbs criteria (which I'd just wait another year or two to met anyway) all those boxes are ticked to a lesser or greater extent by the supernaked bikes with additional weather protection.
I mean what about the KTM 1290 superduke GT? Why does that not meet your criteria?
The KTM SD GT does meet my requirements but I think you've missed my point. There has been NO hyper sports bike development in the last 15+ years which means there are no "up to date" options for hyper sports bikes. My point is that the lack of market is a result of a lack of product not a lack of demand.
Whilst it can be said the Hyper Sports Tourer options have diminished, this will be a reflection of the market forces. Adv bike and super naked are the new "thing" and if Hyper Sports Tourer was truly still a viable market segment, the available bikes would be selling like hot cakes as these customers wouldn't' accept the compromises offered by other market offerings.
BMW halted the K1300 series because they felt for volumes sold, they could lose a minimal number of sales by shifting sales to adjoining products. And that's the trouble with niche offerings. To make a 1300 IL4 that existed in only one product just doesn't add up. Especially when similar or even better performance can be had from existing or modified platforms. How long before the S1000R/RR engine goes 1100cc and with suitable cams and set up becomes a fantastic "Touring" engine with lower redline and prodigious torque?
Above that is the 6 cylinder offering. So in truth, the 1300 has no market to fill, or non that is a viable business justification.
As for other manufacturers, I suspect we'll see the same route taken by Kawasaki with reduced capacity engines and forced induction to maintain or improve torque without the need for high rpm that offer great grunt from tick over. H2SX is a portent of the future so lets see if it remains in the line up. Only time and sales will tell.
The age of bikers is rising hence lack of desire for 600s and hyper sports tourers. It's nice to be able to blast at speed from Calais to Monaco but you can't now do more than a constant 90 mph without getting a fine/ban/bike confiscated - times have changed and this sort of riding, despite being mostly perfectly safe, is now a trigger for some serious expense and loss of licence. I remember many occasions at 150 mph but being caught now means massive ball ache and cost and it's not worth it.
So ageing bikers who have more cash generally than younger bikers, choose more comfortable steeds, like the GS - hence popularity there. Super nakeds with basic weather protection and luggage like the SD GT, MT-10 are popular because they can do the 90 mph slog to the south of France but once there - remove the screen and panniers and you have a ball of a bike which delivers the sort of fun the old sports bikes used to give, but with more comfort.
The hyper tourers aren't needed now for the long slog and once you get to the good roads where you can go faster/enjoy the ride, they are still heavy and cumbersome compared to something like the SD GT or MT-10.
Just a sign of the changing times I think.
So ageing bikers who have more cash generally than younger bikers, choose more comfortable steeds, like the GS - hence popularity there. Super nakeds with basic weather protection and luggage like the SD GT, MT-10 are popular because they can do the 90 mph slog to the south of France but once there - remove the screen and panniers and you have a ball of a bike which delivers the sort of fun the old sports bikes used to give, but with more comfort.
The hyper tourers aren't needed now for the long slog and once you get to the good roads where you can go faster/enjoy the ride, they are still heavy and cumbersome compared to something like the SD GT or MT-10.
Just a sign of the changing times I think.
seveb said:
The age of bikers is rising hence lack of desire for 600s and hyper sports tourers. It's nice to be able to blast at speed from Calais to Monaco but you can't now do more than a constant 90 mph without getting a fine/ban/bike confiscated - times have changed and this sort of riding, despite being mostly perfectly safe, is now a trigger for some serious expense and loss of licence. I remember many occasions at 150 mph but being caught now means massive ball ache and cost and it's not worth it.
So ageing bikers who have more cash generally than younger bikers, choose more comfortable steeds, like the GS - hence popularity there. Super nakeds with basic weather protection and luggage like the SD GT, MT-10 are popular because they can do the 90 mph slog to the south of France but once there - remove the screen and panniers and you have a ball of a bike which delivers the sort of fun the old sports bikes used to give, but with more comfort.
The hyper tourers aren't needed now for the long slog and once you get to the good roads where you can go faster/enjoy the ride, they are still heavy and cumbersome compared to something like the SD GT or MT-10.
Just a sign of the changing times I think.
Yep, spot on. The days of being able to cruise along at a ton across Europe with little attention from the plod are long gone.So ageing bikers who have more cash generally than younger bikers, choose more comfortable steeds, like the GS - hence popularity there. Super nakeds with basic weather protection and luggage like the SD GT, MT-10 are popular because they can do the 90 mph slog to the south of France but once there - remove the screen and panniers and you have a ball of a bike which delivers the sort of fun the old sports bikes used to give, but with more comfort.
The hyper tourers aren't needed now for the long slog and once you get to the good roads where you can go faster/enjoy the ride, they are still heavy and cumbersome compared to something like the SD GT or MT-10.
Just a sign of the changing times I think.
Also I agree about the super long gearing on most of these bikes. Fine for top speed runs, but pretty annoying on slow twisty roads, let along alpine routes and filtering. At least this could be remedied with a set of sprockets.
CousinDupree said:
seveb said:
The age of bikers is rising hence lack of desire for 600s and hyper sports tourers. It's nice to be able to blast at speed from Calais to Monaco but you can't now do more than a constant 90 mph without getting a fine/ban/bike confiscated - times have changed and this sort of riding, despite being mostly perfectly safe, is now a trigger for some serious expense and loss of licence. I remember many occasions at 150 mph but being caught now means massive ball ache and cost and it's not worth it.
So ageing bikers who have more cash generally than younger bikers, choose more comfortable steeds, like the GS - hence popularity there. Super nakeds with basic weather protection and luggage like the SD GT, MT-10 are popular because they can do the 90 mph slog to the south of France but once there - remove the screen and panniers and you have a ball of a bike which delivers the sort of fun the old sports bikes used to give, but with more comfort.
The hyper tourers aren't needed now for the long slog and once you get to the good roads where you can go faster/enjoy the ride, they are still heavy and cumbersome compared to something like the SD GT or MT-10.
Just a sign of the changing times I think.
Yep, spot on. The days of being able to cruise along at a ton across Europe with little attention from the plod are long gone.So ageing bikers who have more cash generally than younger bikers, choose more comfortable steeds, like the GS - hence popularity there. Super nakeds with basic weather protection and luggage like the SD GT, MT-10 are popular because they can do the 90 mph slog to the south of France but once there - remove the screen and panniers and you have a ball of a bike which delivers the sort of fun the old sports bikes used to give, but with more comfort.
The hyper tourers aren't needed now for the long slog and once you get to the good roads where you can go faster/enjoy the ride, they are still heavy and cumbersome compared to something like the SD GT or MT-10.
Just a sign of the changing times I think.
Also I agree about the super long gearing on most of these bikes. Fine for top speed runs, but pretty annoying on slow twisty roads, let along alpine routes and filtering. At least this could be remedied with a set of sprockets.
Bikes sales are dropping anyway, the extremes of the market tend to disappear first and bikes like the Hayabusa, ZZR/ZX, BB were reasonably extreme back in the day. If there were enough nutcases around to buy them, the Hayabusa et al would still be produced and would be 200kg and knocking out 230hp plus. But sadly development stopped when sales slowed in the GFC. It seems the people who, in the 90's and 2000's said they just want a UJM but bought Hayabusas, Fireblades are now finally buying those UJM's and there's no youngies nowadays who fancy a bit of crazy.
PTW Registrations aren't dropping, only Moped (due to emissions mainly) sales EU-Wide are.
Have a look here:
https://www.acem.eu/market-data
As you can see, UK has a 3,7% increase for Motorcycles (this is everything over 51cc) Jan-Sep. 2018 vs. 2017.
EU-Wide it's actually a 8+% increase.
Have a look here:
https://www.acem.eu/market-data
As you can see, UK has a 3,7% increase for Motorcycles (this is everything over 51cc) Jan-Sep. 2018 vs. 2017.
EU-Wide it's actually a 8+% increase.
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