Why are Harleys disliked?

[25th QV]

Is it right to throw shade on a HD due to its size, weight, handling, lean angle and all the other measures that could be used to criticise them if that is not what they are designed for?

You could use the same argument about the old Land Rover Defender - utterly terrible in almost every measure possible compared to what is decreed as 'good' if we apply the race car measure of what 'good is', yet people love and adore them for what they are. Same for lots of cars.

I'm a new (mature) sport bike rider and whilst I'm enjoying scratching the 80's and 90's itch I had for a high revving, 4 cyl race bike for the road, I'm now very quickly appreciating the criticism they can get for being cramped and uncomfortable etc etc.

So I find myself looking for a different bike that doesn't encourage me to go fast to deliver it's fun, that is really comfortable, that still has a wow factor and road presence and a HD is definitely on my list.

I can definitely sense the prejudice against them, and as a neutral, I can also see similar against big ADV bikes in the same way large SUV drivers attract similar stereotypes.

I'm probably a bit old school, but tech and gadgets do not really impress me, and as I'm from an engineering and manufacturing background, I also know that these cost very little to add to a bike therefore their perceived value is very subjective.

I do wince at the cost of the HD (as I do the new BMW GS1300 for example), but having had a really good (static) look and sit on a lot of bikes from a lot of manufacturers recently and really focussing on the details, I can definitely see the quality and substance in a HD. Everything just looks and feels so much more substantial, moire solid, better finished etc. This will no doubt be one of the things that makes them so heavy, but from a sheer £ for lbs perspective, you do get a lot of bike.

I spent a long time examining an Indian and then immediately the HD and it was absolutely clear that the HD was a level up in fit, finish and attention to detail.

Reading this thread does however make me consider the general opinion people have of them though and whilst this shouldn't matter, I would have to add it to the equation when considering as I don't want to be instantly 'condemned' for my bike choice from the get go. I would however keep and use all my current Alpinestsrs kit and full face lid etc and I have no interest whatsoever in loud exhausts, so I'd happily rock about on whatever Euro 5 system it comes with, nor feel the need to rev it up 12 times just to make sure it's started.

Then again, I might end up on a new Guzzi Stelvio instead, or a Multistrada, I just want something big, comfy and high quality that makes me feel special. The badge on the side is not important.

[Sebastian Tombs]

Loud 4 cylinders don’t sound that great it’s true, but the sports bike riders seem to ride around in smaller packs and they seem quiet enough when not being revved. The Harleys seem to cruise through in groups of 30 or more and make a racket even when pootling.

[Hungrymc]

25th QV said:

Reading this thread does however make me consider the general opinion people have of them though and whilst this shouldn't matter, I would have to add it to the equation when considering as I don't want to be instantly 'condemned' for my bike choice from the get go. I would however keep and use all my current Alpinestsrs kit and full face lid etc and I have no interest whatsoever in loud exhausts, so I'd happily rock about on whatever Euro 5 system it comes with, nor feel the need to rev it up 12 times just to make sure it's started.

Then again, I might end up on a new Guzzi Stelvio instead, or a Multistrada, I just want something big, comfy and high quality that makes me feel special. The badge on the side is not important.

It seems most of the negative opinions are based on large groups making a racket, blocking the road and behaving oddly..... I guess all you have to do is not be one of those ?

My current road bikes are a Rocket and a Multistrada, I ride them in the same (normal) gear, tend to ride alone or in very small groups... Have had no negative reaction to the Rocket (only owned this year)... Buy what you like, ride it with consideration to others...It's that simple.

[25th QV]

Hungrymc said:

It seems most of the negative opinions are based on large groups making a racket, blocking the road and behaving oddly..... I guess all you have to do is not be one of those ?

My current road bikes are a Rocket and a Multistrada, I ride them in the same (normal) gear, tend to ride alone or in very small groups... Have had no negative reaction to the Rocket (only owned this year)... Buy what you like, ride it with consideration to others...It's that simple.

Amen to that.

I only ever ride alone and I'm always conscious not to be that guy on the sports bike at 10k rpm when it's not necessary. I pootle about at 30-40 most of the time in 5th or 6th....... whilst contemplating my acute knee angle and aching wrists and back

[black-k1]

25th QV said:

Is it right to throw shade on a HD due to its size, weight, handling, lean angle and all the other measures that could be used to criticise them if that is not what they are designed for?

You could use the same argument about the old Land Rover Defender - utterly terrible in almost every measure possible compared to what is decreed as 'good' if we apply the race car measure of what 'good is', yet people love and adore them for what they are. Same for lots of cars.

....

And this is where my view of HDs struggles. An old Defender is pretty well unbeaten, even now, as an off road vehicle that really can go anywhere a 4 wheeled vehicle can (not just up the odd muddy track), but that is also usable on-road for normal day-to-day on-road tasks. Its on-road may be compromised but only because its off-road utility vehicle performance is up there with the best.

With HD, there is nothing that puts it up there with the best. There are better cruisers, there are better full dress tourers etc. but those bikes are also better at everything non-cruiser, non-tourer etc. (other than being an HD) than Harleys are. The only thing HDs are best at (and this applies across the whole range) is being a Harley.

If you really want an HD then there is nothing else that will deliver because nothing else is a Harley. If you want a cruiser, an American V- Twin, a full dress interstate tourer, an "old fashioned" engine design, a retro look and feel etc. then there are, I would suggest, lots better alternatives.

[Biker 1]

My 2p worth:

Seriously overpriced, heavy, antique technology, slow, under-powered, under-braked, don't handle, horror stories regarding reliability....
I just don't think they are suited to British roads, particularly in winter.

Whenever I come across one, I almost always end up easily overtaking it, including in my ancient Volvo!!

Having said all that, I would love to do an HD trip in the US......

[turbomoggie]

There's a Harley rider near us and his bike his obnoxiously loud. He drives through our town centre unnecessarily blipping his throttle.

[XR]

Biker 1 said:

I just don't think they are suited to British roads, particularly in winter.

You think the bikes are expensive?

You need to check out the accessory catalogue for the special offers



Fancy a set of heated grips for your Harley-Davidson? 😎

We'll supply and fit new toasty grips for just £499, saving you £150!🔥

Contact Darren to learn more:
0141 486 8962
[e-mail]



When I saw there was £150 off I thought they would be virtually free

Edited by XR on Tuesday 21st November 11:51

[25th QV]

black-k1 said:

And this is where my view of HDs struggles. An old Defender is pretty well unbeaten, even now, as an off road vehicle that really can go anywhere a 4 wheeled vehicle can (not just up the odd muddy track), but that is also usable on-road for normal day-to-day on-road tasks. Its on-road may be compromised but only because its off-road utility vehicle performance is up there with the best.

With HD, there is nothing that puts it up there with the best. There are better cruisers, there are better full dress tourers etc. but those bikes are also better at everything non-cruiser, non-tourer etc. (other than being an HD) than Harleys are. The only thing HDs are best at (and this applies across the whole range) is being a Harley.

If you really want an HD then there is nothing else that will deliver because nothing else is a Harley. If you want a cruiser, an American V- Twin, a full dress interstate tourer, an "old fashioned" engine design, a retro look and feel etc. then there are, I would suggest, lots better alternatives.

It's an interesting discussion. I think with bikes, for me at least, a large part of the decision making process is based on emotion rather than rational objectivity.

I agree with you that on many levels, there are bikes that are better at most of the individual elements of measurement. But that doesn't take into account the emotions and visceral experience a bike can bring. The enjoyment, the fun, the pride of ownership etc - all very difficult to quantify on paper.

For example, if I applied only a box ticking or attribute points ranking approach to my next bike, the results wouls no doubt point me toward something like a Honda NT1100, Verseys 1000 or GSX-S1000GX etc, all of which on so many levels would out score an appropriate HD nearest equivalent.

Except for the fact that to me personally, and no offence to anyone that owns any of those bikes which I'm sure are great, leave me absolutely cold. They do nothing for me whatsoever. I see them as a practical solution to a task. They wouldn't make me look back and think 'wow, look at that, what an eyeful', or get me excited to go out for a ride for the sake of it, or feel proud to own, or feel special riding down the road etc, etc.

I think this is where the Harley scores very highly. I take the point made about they're best at being a Harley and agree to a certain extent, but also add that for me it's not just being a Harley, it' the very look and feel of them, irrespective of the brand. For example, to my eyes, a Sport Glide without its fairing and panniers is an absolutely beautiful, elegant and graceful bike that is almost a piece of art. If that makes me feel special and a provides a fantastic ownership experience, does it have to be the best at any of the other more measurable elements? Is good enough okay in exchange for the emotional factor?

In the spring I intend to ride a Multistrada, Stelvio, GS1300, Sportglide / Fat Bob, Duke 990 and a Hypermotard. One of them hopefully makes me grin from ear to ear and reach for my credit card. I might ride the harley and hate it!

Edited by 25th QV on Tuesday 21st November 13:00

Edited by 25th QV on Tuesday 21st November 13:01

[hiccy18]

Looked at from a purely rational perspective, bikes don't often make much sense, yet we all love doing it. People on this forum often call my bike boring, but I've yet to be bored riding a bike Some people prefer to ride vintage and classic bikes, and some of them like to purchase them new with dealer support, whether it's a retro bike or a Harley.

That 1250 is a bloody good engine.

[gareth_r]

XR said:

You think the bikes are expensive?

You need to check out the accessory catalogue for the special offers



Fancy a set of heated grips for your Harley-Davidson? ??

We'll supply and fit new toasty grips for just £499, saving you £150!??

Contact Darren to learn more:
0141 486 8962
[e-mail]



When I saw there was £150 off I thought they would be virtually free

Edited by XR on Tuesday 21st November 11:51

Harley heated grips are about £225.

Triumph heated grips are about £225.

[zeb]

OP you’ve had plenty of sensible replies. I think they’re st, loud and antiquated, there are better alternatives out there. However if that’s what you want then crack on mate. One man’s noise is another man’s music.

[black-k1]

25th QV said:

It's an interesting discussion. I think with bikes, for me at least, a large part of the decision making process is based on emotion rather than rational objectivity.

I agree with you that on many levels, there are bikes that are better at most of the individual elements of measurement. But that doesn't take into account the emotions and visceral experience a bike can bring. The enjoyment, the fun, the pride of ownership etc - all very difficult to quantify on paper.

For example, if I applied only a box ticking or attribute points ranking approach to my next bike, the results wouls no doubt point me toward something like a Honda NT1100, Verseys 1000 or GSX-S1000GX etc, all of which on so many levels would out score an appropriate HD nearest equivalent.

Except for the fact that to me personally, and no offence to anyone that owns any of those bikes which I'm sure are great, leave me absolutely cold. They do nothing for me whatsoever. I see them as a practical solution to a task. They wouldn't make me look back and think 'wow, look at that, what an eyeful', or get me excited to go out for a ride for the sake of it, or feel proud to own, or feel special riding down the road etc, etc.

I think this is where the Harley scores very highly. I take the point made about they're best at being a Harley and agree to a certain extent, but also add that for me it's not just being a Harley, it' the very look and feel of them, irrespective of the brand. For example, to my eyes, a Sport Glide without its fairing and panniers is an absolutely beautiful, elegant and graceful bike that is almost a piece of art. If that makes me feel special and a provides a fantastic ownership experience, does it have to be the best at any of the other more measurable elements? Is good enough okay in exchange for the emotional factor?

In the spring I intend to ride a Multistrada, Stelvio, GS1300, Sportglide / Fat Bob, Duke 990 and a Hypermotard. One of them hopefully makes me grin from ear to ear and reach for my credit card. I might ride the harley and hate it!

Emotion is a key part of buying a bike and is something that can't be measured, but I've never had trouble finding a bike that "meets my emotional needs" from a shortlist formed from practical and measurable criteria. My problem is that a Harley would never make the shortlist and could never be "emotionally good enough" to make it better than the bikes I choose from the short list. But that's how I choose a bike, and is not the same for others.

The key question is; if a new American company formed, building motorcycles powered by 45degree pushrod V twin engines, where the bikes just happened to look exactly like, sound exactly like, feel exactly like HDs, yet were 10% cheaper, would the bikes sell? I strongly suspect, even with a huge marketing budget, the company would be bust within a very short period of time, having sold very few bikes because HD owners want a Harley and, more importantly, their perception of the image that goes with that.

As said, if someone wants a Harley, they should buy a Harley as nothing else is a Harley. I would wish them many happy miles together and would see them as another fellow biker but I won't be using my money to buy an HD as I want to buy a bike, not an image.

I hope you enjoy your test rides and I look forward to hear what you think.

[Muzzer79]

Bob_Defly said:

Because (here in North America) they are mainly seen as a status symbol, rather than a decent motorbike.

I can see that.

Every white American middle-aged man aspires to:

Corvette - if one is in to cars
Harley - if one is in to bikes

How good they are is almost moot. They're an aspirational thing.

[julian64]

If I was going on a road trip in America I would opt for a Harley. Or a big old lazy American muscle car with air con.

But in the UK the majority of Harleys are a bit daft. There's a chap who I often see commenting down the A2 into London in the mornings. All the other bikes disappear into the distance and he is trying to weave a giant unweavable monster through a filtering lane of traffic. Hes quite funny to watch as he is quite hesitant and often emergency brakes at the last second which seems to unsettle the bike. He then stops, feet down and indignantly blares the horn.

Note that on the A2 there is quite a lot of room between cars. God knows what his journey is like once further into London.

So in the UK Harleys are the wrong bike in the wrong place. Fair play to those that persist anyway though.

[Hungrymc]

black-k1 said:

I won't be using my money to buy an HD as I want to buy a bike, not an image.

It’s fair that you would only buy a HD for image. But I think it would be rash to project that onto everyone else.

I sometimes buy stuff despite it having an image that I don’t like.

[tvrolet]

black-k1 said:

The key question is; if a new American company formed, building motorcycles powered by 45degree pushrod V twin engines, where the bikes just happened to look exactly like, sound exactly like, feel exactly like HDs, yet were 10% cheaper, would the bikes sell? I strongly suspect, even with a huge marketing budget, the company would be bust within a very short period of time, having sold very few bikes because HD owners want a Harley and, more importantly, their perception of the image that goes with that.

Ignoring the OHV aspect, then that would basically be Victory, started by Polaris.

I rode a few and they were really good bikes, and very well put together. But they didn't sell in anywhere the numbers required, not least because despite being v-twins they lacked heritage and didn't have the olde worlde style. Ergo, Polaris resurrected the Indian brand (which has a longer/better heritage than Harley - 1901 vs 1903...don't get me started ).

Despite all the 'old tech' jibes, these were new bikes from the ground-up with brand new motors, transmissions, chassis, and even switch gear. Fuel Injection (obviously), keyless, ABS, remote alarm etc. And they've certainly gained some popularity, not least from me. But now the Indian brand has been [re] established with the heritage air-cooled models then the new Scout and Challenger/Pursuit are new motors again with water cooling and OHC and all sorts of other state-of-the-art goodies. If you want a hooligan bike you could do far worse than an FTR - holds the World wheely record for a standard bike I understand.

BTW, on a relatively slow revving engine I don't see a problem with OHV (aka pushrods). The valve can move up an down in EXACTLY the same manner as OHC; indeed OHCs need finger followers or rockers too in order to match the opening/closing profile of a pushrod and rocker. And of course OHV engines can have automatic/hydraulic valve adjustment. My Indian is now 9 years old and 30,000+ miles and all that's ever needed to be done at service time is an oil and filter change, occasional brake fluid change, and lube the levers (and of course pad and tyre changes). Sure if the valves are zipping up and down at 12,000 rpm or so then pushrods are a liability and won't cope, but if you're red-lined at half than then there really is no penalty.

In terms of performance I know you weren't pressing on, but on that day's ride from Fondo, Italy to Gomaringen, Germany across the alps the old Indian has happy enough to keep up, and had enough in reserve to catch back up when it got held up. Sure you were maybe only using 30% of your performance and I was maybe using 80%...but not a bad pace to keep cross country for long distances. I'm not sure too many would want to 'tour' much faster than that over long distances, and so for me at least the big old v-twin was comfy and went well enough.

I can't speak for Harleys (as the Indian passes all the one it sees ) but I think the Chief is a great touring bike, and surprisingly nimble on the tightest of hairpins...although I have followed a Road King round some bends and it was grounding waaaay before the Chief would; at my age and skill level it's actually quite difficult to scrape the Chief.

And re the comments of unfriendly Harley owners; I've found the least likely to wave back or acknowledge are the GS crowd; especially those with the big alloy Ewan and Charley panniers (who don't seem to be able to filter either). I've been to a few big HD events on the Indian and found pretty much all of the non-patched brigade very friendly. And a lot of real long distance riders too. But for sure there's a different demographic to most other bikes meets; for sure older, but a LOT of older couples.

Anyway...buy a Harley if you want, but you'd be better off with an Indian

[XR]

gareth_r said:

XR said:

You think the bikes are expensive?

You need to check out the accessory catalogue for the special offers



Fancy a set of heated grips for your Harley-Davidson? ??

We'll supply and fit new toasty grips for just £499, saving you £150!??

Contact Darren to learn more:
0141 486 8962
[e-mail]



When I saw there was £150 off I thought they would be virtually free

Edited by XR on Tuesday 21st November 11:51

Harley heated grips are about £225.

Triumph heated grips are about £225.

Those are Harley heated grips, normal price is £649 fitted for the ones I've shown above, the offer (£150 off) was sent to me yesterday, probably about right with a couple of hours for fitting. Too rich for me unfortunately.

[SAS Tom]

Another in the not a fan group. They just don’t do it for me but no cruiser does.

I recently had a go on a Pan America though and thought it was great. I really want one. Trouble is everyone tells you they are crap. Harley people because “it’s not a proper Harley” and non Harley people say “because it’s a Harley”. They depreciate like a stone because of it. Apparently they aren’t very well built either but the ones I looked at seemed fine.

[Steve Bass]

Sebastian Tombs said:

Round here they are all ridden by retired old men who like to thunder through our village every summer Sunday treating us to the sound of a bad sounding engine with seemingly no exhaust pipes.

Seriously HD owners, stop taking the silencers off. It doesn’t sound nice. I love a V twin but a HD has the wrong firing interval and just sounds broken.

It's not just you...

There's no doubt that motorcycling is in decline in the developed world and for high $$ items like HD's, their core market demographic is dying (literally) away.
If the average age of an HD rider I see around me in Ontario is 60+ then HD have some very worrying times coming in the next few years....

And for the more senior riders, there seems to be a move towards the Can Am 3 wheeler kinda contraption... makes sense I guess, doesn't fall over, has a reverse gear and puts you out in the elements like a bike....