Ducati fans. Which are the real landmark sports bikes?
Discussion
Rocket Pepper said:
Beemer-5 said:
I beg to differ.
The public road isn't the place to be doing 180+ mph and cornering at 'ten-tenths'.
Please, no offense, but at 47 and set in my ways, I really don't need the sanctimonious bull. You like tracks for riding fast, where as they bore me after so long. The public road isn't the place to be doing 180+ mph and cornering at 'ten-tenths'.
I prefer ripping across open country endangering the lives of small children and OAP's. Man you shoulda been there the day I hit 247mph on the rear wheel past some school for the blind up near................oh I'm so irresponsible with all that power.
No offence, (with a 'c') taken, but the biggest 'bull' as you put it, is that which reckons that the road is a place you can go super fast on a regular basis on.
As recently as last July i lost a good mate (36) who thought that the road was safe to use as a racetrack...
And I could go the same way, as could anyone, riding fast on the road. That's a risk all riders take NO MATTER WHAT SPEED.
Speed never kills, just the incorrect application of it. I'm 31 years riding, and counting. Living proof then, you can go fast on the roads. It's noted though, we can all boast like f
k in the boozer, but on an Internet forum those doing so must be inadequate and stupid, as pointed out by your spelling correction. Though why you feel the need....?
We come across this silly argument from time to time about how a bike can't reach its limits on the roads. That's the biggest twaddle I've ever heard. THE MACHINE DOESN'T SET THE LIMIT. The environment it's used in and by who does. As such there are a million miles of road that will use all of a machines capabilities when asked. Flat out on a track is different from flat out on a road is what you're trying to say, though both scenarios are equally capable of placing machine at its limits. For me, finding the limits I enjoy is more rewarding than the limits you seek.
Speed never kills, just the incorrect application of it. I'm 31 years riding, and counting. Living proof then, you can go fast on the roads. It's noted though, we can all boast like f
k in the boozer, but on an Internet forum those doing so must be inadequate and stupid, as pointed out by your spelling correction. Though why you feel the need....?We come across this silly argument from time to time about how a bike can't reach its limits on the roads. That's the biggest twaddle I've ever heard. THE MACHINE DOESN'T SET THE LIMIT. The environment it's used in and by who does. As such there are a million miles of road that will use all of a machines capabilities when asked. Flat out on a track is different from flat out on a road is what you're trying to say, though both scenarios are equally capable of placing machine at its limits. For me, finding the limits I enjoy is more rewarding than the limits you seek.
Edited by Rocket Pepper on Wednesday 27th August 18:51
Rocket Pepper said:
And I could go the same way, as could anyone, riding fast on the road. That's a risk all riders take NO MATTER WHAT SPEED.
Absolutely correct.... the problem is that you have to share the road with other types of transport, people who don't choose to take the risks bikers do. And like it or not, you *can* do other people damage with a bike - as you can with your body too (highside off round a left hander at high speed through someone's windscreen?) - not to mention mowing pedestrians down (I've had the misfortune to see someone killed by a bike in Oxford many years ago - the scream wasn't particularly pleasant).Methinks you're not advocating using the roads as a racetrack i.e. reaching the *machine's* limits on the road - just your own. Now the safety of this (to other road users, ignoring you since you have chosen to take the risk of a bike) will depend on how good a rider you are, I guess. My lame skill means that my limits on road are very low, hence I ride pretty slowly. I guess I could still come off, go through someone's windscreen and the bike plough into a bus queue...
But the fact that motorbikes are allowed on the road at all (given how few people can actually handle the power of a modern bike) must indicate that the majority of people who come a cropper on a bike only hurt themselves and not other road users, otherwise there'd be massive anti-motorbike campaigns by the anti-motoring crowd (Brake, etc.) - so perhaps 'riding fast on the road' generally tends to mean leisure riding on lightly-trafficked roads.
Certainly the most dangerous riding I've seen where other people could be hurt (in town, mostly) has been from the scooter brigade (myself included) - superbikes tending to rumble through town slowly without taking the piss. That could be due to superbikes being overpowered for town, and harder to make violent direction changes when necessary (compared to cars and scooters) to avoid trouble...
The most dangerous riding I've seen on the open road was 3 guys (assumed all male - all in power ranger costumes, difficult to tell) on litre sports bikes racing each other down to Goodwood on the day of the Festival of Speed. I was driving a Noble down and wasn't hanging about
but these three bikes decided to steam past me on an S bend - the first two made it through OK, the third saw the oncoming car, tried to cut back in a bit quick, lost the rear momentarily on the white lines and got an enormous tank-slapper for his benefit. Good job he kept it up, but he slowed *right* down at that point, and I was going pretty rapidly myself (anyone who's been in a Noble will know what I mean - and I'm a MUCH faster driver than a rider) - the difference being that if the biker lost it, I reckon the Noble's brakes would pull me up way before hitting the leather-clad lump in the road. Out on the open road, with modern car brakes (Noble didn't have ABS but you assume a skilled driver - other cars have ABS etc. and can stop nearly as quick) most cars can avoid bikes that have accidents, and it's the rider who takes the risk, not the car.Off topic, but certainly food for thought.
Beemer-5 said:
996 sps said:
Does everyone agree here that on the road Ducatis are a bit of a mare to get used to and ride as hard as a Jap 4?
The 1098 gets such a slating against Jap Litre bikes for flighty handling and needing exact set up - I jumped on my brothers K7 Gixer 1000 and had my knee down and felt comfortable fairly rapidly, again for me its the passion thing I openly admit my Blade and Gixer where far easier to ride.
Bikes have long since been more than fast enough for the road, even for very spirited riding.The 1098 gets such a slating against Jap Litre bikes for flighty handling and needing exact set up - I jumped on my brothers K7 Gixer 1000 and had my knee down and felt comfortable fairly rapidly, again for me its the passion thing I openly admit my Blade and Gixer where far easier to ride.
Once you have more than enough power and go, it's other things we look for in a bike.
Value for money, performance, reliabilty, cost to run, etc, the Japanese 4 cylinder 1000s are the kings, awesome bikes.
For me, i don't need more than 150 bhp for the modern roads, so after sufficient power i look for things like sound, feel, character, exclusivity and looks.
A GSXR1000 is a 'better' bike than a 1098S, just as a VW Golf is a 'better' car than a Alfa 147 GTA, but i'll take the Italians, please.
I think we can all agree, most everyone that rides fast on the road does so with a modicum of competence and responsibility. I just get pissed off when fellow bikers give it 'the safest place is the track' type lectures, then they assume you're a danger to others because you use the road somewhat irresponsibly compared to them, just because you admit to riding the wheels off your bike.
YamR1V64motion said:
Beemer-5 said:
996 sps said:
Does everyone agree here that on the road Ducatis are a bit of a mare to get used to and ride as hard as a Jap 4?
The 1098 gets such a slating against Jap Litre bikes for flighty handling and needing exact set up - I jumped on my brothers K7 Gixer 1000 and had my knee down and felt comfortable fairly rapidly, again for me its the passion thing I openly admit my Blade and Gixer where far easier to ride.
Bikes have long since been more than fast enough for the road, even for very spirited riding.The 1098 gets such a slating against Jap Litre bikes for flighty handling and needing exact set up - I jumped on my brothers K7 Gixer 1000 and had my knee down and felt comfortable fairly rapidly, again for me its the passion thing I openly admit my Blade and Gixer where far easier to ride.
Once you have more than enough power and go, it's other things we look for in a bike.
Value for money, performance, reliabilty, cost to run, etc, the Japanese 4 cylinder 1000s are the kings, awesome bikes.
For me, i don't need more than 150 bhp for the modern roads, so after sufficient power i look for things like sound, feel, character, exclusivity and looks.
A GSXR1000 is a 'better' bike than a 1098S, just as a VW Golf is a 'better' car than a Alfa 147 GTA, but i'll take the Italians, please.
That's why i try and buy as many types of bikes as i can within my budget.
To experience as many kinds of bike pleasure as possible!
I really do think that the 749R and 1098S are the best 2 bikes i have owned, for overall sports bike satisfaction.
Rocket Pepper said:
I think we can all agree, most everyone that rides fast on the road does so with a modicum of competence and responsibility. I just get pissed off when fellow bikers give it 'the safest place is the track' type lectures, then they assume you're a danger to others because you use the road somewhat irresponsibly compared to them, just because you admit to riding the wheels off your bike.
It is possible that both of us have slightly misunderstood the other.In no particular order, i will answer your points.
'31 years riding on the road' doesn't 'prove that you can ride fast on the road safely'.
One could just as easily say, that the 9 friends i have lost to bike accidents since the early 1980s, when the first one died, 'is proof that going fast on the road is fatal'.
We can believe it which way we want.
Okay, you may be an exception, but i am sorry, i know plenty of people as friends and meet up on the road with many more, who clearly DO think that it's okay to treat the road as a racetrack.
YOU may be particularly careful, skillful and attentive, i wouldn't know, but, for example, the Yamaha R6 which was written off near Leek recently was piloted by someone who obviously thought that the Cat and Fiddle was a 'safe' place to race his mates on at huge speed. A little bad bit of road surface is thought to have been why he dropped his bike and then stopped his body from 90 mph against a van.
Needless to say, he probably won't walk again, let alone get back on a bike.
Also YOU are using the words bull and twaddle.
I could just as easily say that you are 'talking out of your arse', but prefer reasoned debate.
keep it that way.
I make NO apologies whatsoever regarding the track being a better place to find out what a modern sports bike can do than the road.
Most riders of 180 bhp bikes never get anywhere near what the maker has enabled the bike to do on the road.
You simply cannot beat a 'road', where the surface is kept in superb and grippy condition, there are no unexpected farmers' vehicles, no diesel spills, no livestock, no horses, nothing coming the other way and no pedestrians/cyclists.
I will always disagree with you on that point.
Other than that i am happy that you have enjoyed your bikes for a similar amount of time to me.
I have now owned 92 motorcycles and have liked most of them.
The 1098S is amazing.
Peace.
Another aspect of all this.
In an age of more and more;
Speed cameras, Police forces hiring speed control helicopters, hidden Police camera vans...it ain't rocket science to see why so many riders are finding themselves on the bus, with their next insurance premium doubled.
No licence often means no job/career, too.
Not having to worry about the old bill is a massive advantage, when you're putting an R1 or the like through it's paces!
Speed humps breeding like rabbits just add to the pleasure of fast road riding! Not!
In an age of more and more;
Speed cameras, Police forces hiring speed control helicopters, hidden Police camera vans...it ain't rocket science to see why so many riders are finding themselves on the bus, with their next insurance premium doubled.
No licence often means no job/career, too.
Not having to worry about the old bill is a massive advantage, when you're putting an R1 or the like through it's paces!
Speed humps breeding like rabbits just add to the pleasure of fast road riding! Not!
Bull and twaddle are representative of my usual speech which includes much swearing. It's not personal. Sorry you felt it might be. I'm all for debate.
What I don't like is you giving your wealth of experience, vast as it is, and your sad experiences, as some sort of judgement against what I do on two wheels.
Put it another. The next time you're out on the road and you screw the nuts of that 1098 for just 1 minute, when you know it is absolutely safe to do so, think how hypocritical such is just because I choose to do similar frequently. That's why bikers on bikers telling what's best for all is 'bull' and 'twaddle'.
As for the track and its limits, real world riding is more like the TT course than Donnington, Brands or Cadwell. I'm sure the limits might apply different for each type of discipline, racing(TT) on the roads or the circuits, but I'd be happy to argue there are many limits NOT found on a modern super bike when ridden hard on a smooth race track. Not to mention the experience lost, or gained, from ignoring one or the the other, but the road one can never have too much experience of. To ride tracks in preference of roads is in some way, no matter how little, creating lesser experience with the roads no matter how unintentional.
Peace back.
What I don't like is you giving your wealth of experience, vast as it is, and your sad experiences, as some sort of judgement against what I do on two wheels.
Put it another. The next time you're out on the road and you screw the nuts of that 1098 for just 1 minute, when you know it is absolutely safe to do so, think how hypocritical such is just because I choose to do similar frequently. That's why bikers on bikers telling what's best for all is 'bull' and 'twaddle'.
As for the track and its limits, real world riding is more like the TT course than Donnington, Brands or Cadwell. I'm sure the limits might apply different for each type of discipline, racing(TT) on the roads or the circuits, but I'd be happy to argue there are many limits NOT found on a modern super bike when ridden hard on a smooth race track. Not to mention the experience lost, or gained, from ignoring one or the the other, but the road one can never have too much experience of. To ride tracks in preference of roads is in some way, no matter how little, creating lesser experience with the roads no matter how unintentional.
Peace back.
Beemer-5 said:
For sure.
That's why i try and buy as many types of bikes as i can within my budget.
To experience as many kinds of bike pleasure as possible!
I really do think that the 749R and 1098S are the best 2 bikes i have owned, for overall sports bike satisfaction.
ive not been on a Ducati for quite a while, the last one i rode was a 749S and it was a brief go too, ive been very tempted to change up to a 1098 or 1098S recently but just want to hold off a bit longer for to compare with the Aprilia, still its not like the bike i have to ride at the moment is in any way a chore That's why i try and buy as many types of bikes as i can within my budget.
To experience as many kinds of bike pleasure as possible!
I really do think that the 749R and 1098S are the best 2 bikes i have owned, for overall sports bike satisfaction.
ive always thought that the 748/749s are quite revvy for a V twin, still completly different to a 4 though.I've been into bikes since I was 12 in 88 and I rode a Honda gorilla for the first time.
Loved Jap bikes, then bam - I was about 18 and the 916 arrived. Ducati were an also ran, expensive odity before then, like Laverda's in my book. Nice bikes and all that but you had to be a Duke fan or anti-jap to want one.
The 916 was just pure unadulterated sex. Then you have the race provenance and the Carl Fogarty factor (even though he won on 851's as well).
THE landmark Duke.
Loved Jap bikes, then bam - I was about 18 and the 916 arrived. Ducati were an also ran, expensive odity before then, like Laverda's in my book. Nice bikes and all that but you had to be a Duke fan or anti-jap to want one.
The 916 was just pure unadulterated sex. Then you have the race provenance and the Carl Fogarty factor (even though he won on 851's as well).
THE landmark Duke.
3doorPete said:
THE landmark Duke.
Must say THE landmark duke was the 851 which brought Ducati to the attention to the masses with Raymond Roche, Falappa etc. It was one of the first Fuel Injected (I think the 907ie was the first) and the first of the Ducati's to really appeal to the general sportsbike fraternity rather than the hardcore Duke enthusiast. I got my first Ducati in 91, an 851 Strada - it had the looks, noise (with no baffles) and reliability totally different experienced after having had a ZXR750H2, GSXR 750M etc,scoobster999 said:
3doorPete said:
THE landmark Duke.
Must say THE landmark duke was the 851 which brought Ducati to the attention to the masses with Raymond Roche, Falappa etc. It was one of the first Fuel Injected (I think the 907ie was the first) and the first of the Ducati's to really appeal to the general sportsbike fraternity rather than the hardcore Duke enthusiast. I got my first Ducati in 91, an 851 Strada - it had the looks, noise (with no baffles) and reliability totally different experienced after having had a ZXR750H2, GSXR 750M etc,916 had the charisma of the 851, with awesome looks that made it a poster bike that everyone wanted. Like an RC30 but with Italian flair and style.
3doorPete said:
scoobster999 said:
3doorPete said:
THE landmark Duke.
Must say THE landmark duke was the 851 which brought Ducati to the attention to the masses with Raymond Roche, Falappa etc. It was one of the first Fuel Injected (I think the 907ie was the first) and the first of the Ducati's to really appeal to the general sportsbike fraternity rather than the hardcore Duke enthusiast. I got my first Ducati in 91, an 851 Strada - it had the looks, noise (with no baffles) and reliability totally different experienced after having had a ZXR750H2, GSXR 750M etc,916 had the charisma of the 851, with awesome looks that made it a poster bike that everyone wanted. Like an RC30 but with Italian flair and style.
Scoobster, there is no doubting you know of what you speak, and have impeccable taste. Funny you mention the old Paso. Never took to it in red, but the blue just looks way futuristic for its time. The 'Ferrari' styling takes some getting your head around, but once it does, it just clicks and becomes understandable. The aerodynamics really work on the Paso. The old air cooled two valve can do over 140mph and not hang about getting there. In he late 80's early 90's that's some performance.
As for Beemer, I'm certain he's just as passionate about bikes as the best. There's really no need to fall out on a forum, and clearly Beemer deserves a whole lot of respect owning the amount of bikes he has/does. Lucky bleeder
As for Beemer, I'm certain he's just as passionate about bikes as the best. There's really no need to fall out on a forum, and clearly Beemer deserves a whole lot of respect owning the amount of bikes he has/does. Lucky bleeder
blade7 said:
Rocket Pepper said:
Bull and twaddle are representative of my usual speech which includes much swearing. It's not personal. Sorry you felt it might be. I'm all for debate.
What I don't like is you giving your wealth of experience, vast as it is, and your sad experiences, as some sort of judgement against what I do on two wheels.
Put it another. The next time you're out on the road and you screw the nuts of that 1098 for just 1 minute, when you know it is absolutely safe to do so, think how hypocritical such is just because I choose to do similar frequently. That's why bikers on bikers telling what's best for all is 'bull' and 'twaddle'.
As for the track and its limits, real world riding is more like the TT course than Donnington, Brands or Cadwell. I'm sure the limits might apply different for each type of discipline, racing(TT) on the roads or the circuits, but I'd be happy to argue there are many limits NOT found on a modern super bike when ridden hard on a smooth race track. Not to mention the experience lost, or gained, from ignoring one or the the other, but the road one can never have too much experience of. To ride tracks in preference of roads is in some way, no matter how little, creating lesser experience with the roads no matter how unintentional.
Peace back.
Don't dare to contradict beemer, I had a snotty pm when I did, and with 5k posts in 2 years he's a real keyboard warrior,What I don't like is you giving your wealth of experience, vast as it is, and your sad experiences, as some sort of judgement against what I do on two wheels.
Put it another. The next time you're out on the road and you screw the nuts of that 1098 for just 1 minute, when you know it is absolutely safe to do so, think how hypocritical such is just because I choose to do similar frequently. That's why bikers on bikers telling what's best for all is 'bull' and 'twaddle'.
As for the track and its limits, real world riding is more like the TT course than Donnington, Brands or Cadwell. I'm sure the limits might apply different for each type of discipline, racing(TT) on the roads or the circuits, but I'd be happy to argue there are many limits NOT found on a modern super bike when ridden hard on a smooth race track. Not to mention the experience lost, or gained, from ignoring one or the the other, but the road one can never have too much experience of. To ride tracks in preference of roads is in some way, no matter how little, creating lesser experience with the roads no matter how unintentional.
Peace back.
Dreadful, eh.
I so wish i had your experience with decent bikes, Bladey...
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