Nortons current state

[Bengt Axel]

Confirming what we already knew;

https://www.visordown.com/news/industry/ex-norton-...

[ThreadKiller]

Isn’t it theft to take parts from something you do not own? If it is, I wonder why no prosecutions.

[200Plus Club]

Quite shocking and also only barred from being a director for 5yrs. Anyone know what's happened to Garner or is he in hiding until it blows over?

[rigga]

ThreadKiller said:

Isn’t it theft to take parts from something you do not own? If it is, I wonder why no prosecutions.

I think part of the definition of theft is to permanently remove the items, or something like that, I don't think initially that was the intention, as with all cash flow issues companies face, they believe rightly or wrongly its a short term issue, so I think at the point this decision was taken, the removal of parts from existing bikes, was a short term stop gap to aid cash flow, get bikes out the door, and then pay suppliers for parts to replace those taken.

Of course that's not what happened, and its a pretty st situation those owners are in, with part assembled bikes, that even if they could be completed, seem to be unfit for purpose, and in some aspects downright dangerous.

Interestingly I recently read an interview from the new recently appointed CEO of Norton, who when asked about Skinner's role and future with new Norton, was absolutely rock solid behind him, as he stated Skinner was design lead, and not production lead, so some aspects of the bike issues, are not his to bear, I'm wondering now that its clear Skinner was fully involved in what went on at Garners behest at Norton, whether that confidence in him is still there.

[NS400R]

rigga said:

Interestingly I recently read an interview from the new recently appointed CEO of Norton, who when asked about Skinner's role and future with new Norton, was absolutely rock solid behind him, as he stated Skinner was design lead, and not production lead, so some aspects of the bike issues, are not his to bear, I'm wondering now that its clear Skinner was fully involved in what went on at Garners behest at Norton, whether that confidence in him is still there.

Apparently the new CEO is right behind Skinner A "key member of my team" despite the Companies House action. Take a look at the Superbike interview. Apparently some people have formed a bad opinion of Skinner as if they are a bit odd.... You truly couldn't write it.....

[Tardigrade]

rigga said:

I think part of the definition of theft is to permanently remove the items, or something like that, I don't think initially that was the intention, as with all cash flow issues companies face, they believe rightly or wrongly its a short term issue, so I think at the point this decision was taken, the removal of parts from existing bikes, was a short term stop gap to aid cash flow, get bikes out the door, and then pay suppliers for parts to replace those taken.

You're right, that is the legal definition (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/crossheading/definition-of-theft), but I don't think it offers any defence for this situation. Using customer A's part to complete customer B's motorcycle *would* result in permanent deprivation, unless Norton's plan could be shown to include swapping them back later.

To put it another way, the intention to replace with a similar part (even if functionally identical) doesn't return customer A's original property. For something with considerable emotional investment, this is clearly permanent deprivation (eg if I took your family pet and gave you another similar animal).

CPS guidance applies this 'similar isn't same' approach -
"If someone takes cash without the owner’s consent intending to repay it then the fact that they intend to repay it may go to the issue of dishonesty but will not negate the intention to permanently deprive, unless the defendant intends to return the very same notes or coins to their owner."
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/theft-act-of...

[2ndclasscitizen]

rigga said:

ThreadKiller said:

Isn’t it theft to take parts from something you do not own? If it is, I wonder why no prosecutions.

I think part of the definition of theft is to permanently remove the items, or something like that, I don't think initially that was the intention, as with all cash flow issues companies face, they believe rightly or wrongly its a short term issue, so I think at the point this decision was taken, the removal of parts from existing bikes, was a short term stop gap to aid cash flow, get bikes out the door, and then pay suppliers for parts to replace those taken.

Of course that's not what happened, and its a pretty st situation those owners are in, with part assembled bikes, that even if they could be completed, seem to be unfit for purpose, and in some aspects downright dangerous.

Interestingly I recently read an interview from the new recently appointed CEO of Norton, who when asked about Skinner's role and future with new Norton, was absolutely rock solid behind him, as he stated Skinner was design lead, and not production lead, so some aspects of the bike issues, are not his to bear, I'm wondering now that its clear Skinner was fully involved in what went on at Garners behest at Norton, whether that confidence in him is still there.

Being struck off as a director doesn't automatically mean he was personally involved in everything that was going on. As a director he is ultimately liable for anything that happens so the action taken against him could be on the basis of "didn't actually do it but should have known it was going on and stopped it". As per the ruling (emphasis mine):

Ruling said:

“Between 09 September 2019 and 12 November 2019 Simon Peter Skinner caused and/or allowed NMUL Realisations Limited to remove parts off of at least six customers’ fully paid for and owned motorcycles which had been returned under warranty ("warranty customers") with values totalling at least £123,000, for use on other customers’ motorcycles resulting in the motorcycles of the warranty customers remaining incomplete as at the date of Administration."

Not ordered, directed, covered up, etc "caused and/or allowed". As a director of the business having the stripping of bikes happen without his knowledge because he didn't intervene to stop it or wasn't involved enough in the business to know it was occurring (fitting in with him reportedly having nothing to do with engineering or production) would fit in "caused and/or allowed". Not saying he's totally innocent but also that he's not necessarily complicit in every one of Garner's crimes.

[Fundoreen]

This is a scandal and something like the motorcycle show should do a feature on it. They only seem to repeat the old ones with the everythings super narrative starring garner.
Interesting when other people in the media are discredited anything featuring them in mid-crime is pulled from public view.

[Turn7]

Woop !!

The Pensions Regulator has announced its intent to prosecute the former owner of Norton Motorcycles for illegally investing money into the business from three pensions schemes of which he was the sole trustee


https://www.pensions-expert.com/DB-Derisking/TPR-t...

[rigga]

Good news ....... but I fear the prospect of any money forthcoming is slim.

[Pothole]

Fundoreen said:

This is a scandal and something like the motorcycle show should do a feature on it. They only seem to repeat the old ones with the everythings super narrative starring garner.
Interesting when other people in the media are discredited anything featuring them in mid-crime is pulled from public view.

Henry Cole? He climbed right into bed with Garner a few years ago. Why would he admit he was hoodwinked, if he actually was?

[kingb]

new website launched today

https://www.nortonmotorcycles.com/

Also looks like the V4 is being re-launched

[Bob_Defly]

LOL, no way would I be throwing any money their way...

[rigga]

New V4 shown, bit less power and torque than the previous v4ss, as new norton thinks the engine was over stressed.

If that was the only problem.

https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new-bikes/nort...

[gregs656]

I really hope this turns into a good news story over the coming years.

[lukeyman]

Someone venting... for sale: 'Norton V4SS 2019 the one with 35 defects; read description'

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313730972375

[Pothole]

lukeyman said:

Someone venting... for sale: 'Norton V4SS 2019 the one with 35 defects; read description'

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313730972375

Why on earth would you do this:
Nov 2016 – NEC Bike show Norton V4SS launch deposit paid build number #131

Sept 2018 – Motorcycle full balance paid as informed the bike was on production line and would be ready in 3 weeks

May 2019 – Norton V4SS #131 collected at Norton Motorcycles factory, Donington Hall

?????? Let them hold a deposit for TWO YEARS then pay the full balance before seeing the completed bike???????????

Garner is clearly a criminal but some of these owners should give their heads a wobble, surely?

[Steve Bass]

Pothole said:

Garner is clearly a criminal but some of these owners should give their heads a wobble, surely?

A Conman can only con those who want to be conned.....

[bolidemichael]

Steve Bass said:

Pothole said:

Garner is clearly a criminal but some of these owners should give their heads a wobble, surely?

A Conman can only con those who want to be conned.....

I don't think that repeating 'con' makes this any more plausible.

[boyse7en]

Pothole said:

lukeyman said:

Someone venting... for sale: 'Norton V4SS 2019 the one with 35 defects; read description'

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313730972375

Why on earth would you do this:
Nov 2016 – NEC Bike show Norton V4SS launch deposit paid build number #131

Sept 2018 – Motorcycle full balance paid as informed the bike was on production line and would be ready in 3 weeks

May 2019 – Norton V4SS #131 collected at Norton Motorcycles factory, Donington Hall

?????? Let them hold a deposit for TWO YEARS then pay the full balance before seeing the completed bike???????????

Garner is clearly a criminal but some of these owners should give their heads a wobble, surely?

What would you do? Garner took deposits and then said they wouldn't build the machine until he had got the balance in full and you wouldn't get a refund on the deposit.
You are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Lose the deposit or pay up and hope the bike turns up.