Toseland, too tough for Moto GP?
Discussion
FourWheelDrift said:
Beemer-5 said:
Tell me how much success british riders have had in WSB, then tell me how much in GP.
It's not an illusion...
WSB Champs - Carl Fogarty, James Toseland, Neal HodgsonIt's not an illusion...
GP500 Champs - Mike Hailwood, John Surtees, Barry Sheene, Geoff Duke, Phil Read, Leslie Graham
NONE!
Beemer-5
I thnk you are wrong for a number of reasons . .
1 - British riders struggle to get top rides due to sponsorship and have done for years.
2 - UK racing is 4 stroke biased and has been for years, therefore if you want to make it in GP's you go to Spain - Bradley being a good example
3 - Foggy had lead a GP, but didn't finish.
4 - Foggy dominated WSB like Doohan dominated GP's. The difference being Foggy changed manufacturers in '96. Don't remember Doohan ever riding anything but the very best Honda NSR available.
5 - Rossi/Lorenzo/Capirossi et al have all come through each of the classes. 125, 250 and then 500's, 990's or 800's. Refer to point 1 as to why this is difficult for UK riders.
6 - Dorna have been trying to get top British riders into GP's for ages as they are worried it is becoming an Italian/French/Spanish championship with the odd smattering of Americans.
7 - When was the last time a British rider had a full factory bike, of that years specification with a top team ?
8 - If Hizzy could get round Donington on a Ducati Superbike quicker than Rossi could pedal his full works RCV, tell me we haven't got the talent !
9 - McWilliams at Assen on a 250. Nuff said.
10 - Bayliss at Valencia . . . Not English, but just a superbike rider . . winning, from lights to flag . .
11 - Scott Redding, Bradley Smith, Danny Webb . . . Nah, none of them have any talent, aren't riding near the front . . shame.
Eugene Laverty, crap bike, doing well if he's in the top 15 in 250's.
Toseland. Such a shame, 6th in the championship, doesn't know all the circuits, it's such a crap set of results isn't it ??? Yes he'll struggle, but my god he's doing well.
A side point to all of the to consider is that Toseland could be blazing a trail for UK riders, proving we have the talent, and have had for years, just not the breaks.
A scary prospect is that now Tosealnd is on the '08 spec Yamaha in '08 which is great, but what happens when it goes to the '09 spec. I have a real anxiety for him and Edwards that the development gap will start to grow later in the year, and then jump in the closed season. I hope not of course, and I hope he has some assurances.
We all know what makes racing happen, it's money, and until we change the 4 stroke bias of racing in the UK, and really invest in our GP riders of the future we will not produce the number of races that Spain do for example. The GP at Valencia on the Saturday attracts 130k people, the world superbikes on the Sunay are lucky to get 45k . . . What does that tell ya ?
I'm not being dillusional, I have been going to watch bike racing in the UK for 20yrs and I've seen the demise of the 250 class, a real shame. the gentlemans agreement on weight in the 125's and the continuing effort to attract the crowd to the races to try and keep the oney there.
Rob Mac can't even get a title sponsor to Karl Harris on BSB this year (yet) and so do you expect a UK rider to get sponsorship to race at a world level on half decent enough kit to get a name, to get more competitive kit to hopefully get a full factory ride ?
During your many conversations with Foggy, did he say "I'm alright on a stocker, but I'd be no good on one of them real race bikes !"
He didn't did he
He has said, he never got offered a ride that was good enough to take. In those days the GP bOys used to refer to the Superbikes as the diesels !
If they are so much better in GP's how come Biaggi & Barros didn't turn up, leave off the front and never be seen again ?
Have you red John Reynolds Autobiography, or Barry Sheenes, or Foggy's even. Many things are evry similiar, but the one key thing you get is that whatever your talent you can't win on uncompetitive bike. You'll have your day, you'll get atop 10 in the wet, but for championships you need championship kit.
Look at how Sheene struggled after his world championship. Uncompetive bikes, the odd great days, but it was gone and he never got championship winnng kit again . . . . .
Sorry for the long post, but I've watched and now miss some of our greatest riding talent ove the last 20yrs and we singularly fail to make them world champions. I've watched Casey Stoner countless times in 125's, and watched our British lad's like Leon Camier beating him, soundly. Yet Camier's in Superbikes to make a living, and Stoner is the current MotoGP champion. . . . There's plenty of other examples.
I thnk you are wrong for a number of reasons . .
1 - British riders struggle to get top rides due to sponsorship and have done for years.
2 - UK racing is 4 stroke biased and has been for years, therefore if you want to make it in GP's you go to Spain - Bradley being a good example
3 - Foggy had lead a GP, but didn't finish.
4 - Foggy dominated WSB like Doohan dominated GP's. The difference being Foggy changed manufacturers in '96. Don't remember Doohan ever riding anything but the very best Honda NSR available.
5 - Rossi/Lorenzo/Capirossi et al have all come through each of the classes. 125, 250 and then 500's, 990's or 800's. Refer to point 1 as to why this is difficult for UK riders.
6 - Dorna have been trying to get top British riders into GP's for ages as they are worried it is becoming an Italian/French/Spanish championship with the odd smattering of Americans.
7 - When was the last time a British rider had a full factory bike, of that years specification with a top team ?
8 - If Hizzy could get round Donington on a Ducati Superbike quicker than Rossi could pedal his full works RCV, tell me we haven't got the talent !
9 - McWilliams at Assen on a 250. Nuff said.
10 - Bayliss at Valencia . . . Not English, but just a superbike rider . . winning, from lights to flag . .
11 - Scott Redding, Bradley Smith, Danny Webb . . . Nah, none of them have any talent, aren't riding near the front . . shame.
Eugene Laverty, crap bike, doing well if he's in the top 15 in 250's.
Toseland. Such a shame, 6th in the championship, doesn't know all the circuits, it's such a crap set of results isn't it ??? Yes he'll struggle, but my god he's doing well.
A side point to all of the to consider is that Toseland could be blazing a trail for UK riders, proving we have the talent, and have had for years, just not the breaks.
A scary prospect is that now Tosealnd is on the '08 spec Yamaha in '08 which is great, but what happens when it goes to the '09 spec. I have a real anxiety for him and Edwards that the development gap will start to grow later in the year, and then jump in the closed season. I hope not of course, and I hope he has some assurances.
We all know what makes racing happen, it's money, and until we change the 4 stroke bias of racing in the UK, and really invest in our GP riders of the future we will not produce the number of races that Spain do for example. The GP at Valencia on the Saturday attracts 130k people, the world superbikes on the Sunay are lucky to get 45k . . . What does that tell ya ?
I'm not being dillusional, I have been going to watch bike racing in the UK for 20yrs and I've seen the demise of the 250 class, a real shame. the gentlemans agreement on weight in the 125's and the continuing effort to attract the crowd to the races to try and keep the oney there.
Rob Mac can't even get a title sponsor to Karl Harris on BSB this year (yet) and so do you expect a UK rider to get sponsorship to race at a world level on half decent enough kit to get a name, to get more competitive kit to hopefully get a full factory ride ?
During your many conversations with Foggy, did he say "I'm alright on a stocker, but I'd be no good on one of them real race bikes !"
He didn't did he
He has said, he never got offered a ride that was good enough to take. In those days the GP bOys used to refer to the Superbikes as the diesels !
If they are so much better in GP's how come Biaggi & Barros didn't turn up, leave off the front and never be seen again ?
Have you red John Reynolds Autobiography, or Barry Sheenes, or Foggy's even. Many things are evry similiar, but the one key thing you get is that whatever your talent you can't win on uncompetitive bike. You'll have your day, you'll get atop 10 in the wet, but for championships you need championship kit.
Look at how Sheene struggled after his world championship. Uncompetive bikes, the odd great days, but it was gone and he never got championship winnng kit again . . . . .
Sorry for the long post, but I've watched and now miss some of our greatest riding talent ove the last 20yrs and we singularly fail to make them world champions. I've watched Casey Stoner countless times in 125's, and watched our British lad's like Leon Camier beating him, soundly. Yet Camier's in Superbikes to make a living, and Stoner is the current MotoGP champion. . . . There's plenty of other examples.
Beemer-5 said:
FourWheelDrift said:
Beemer-5 said:
Tell me how much success british riders have had in WSB, then tell me how much in GP.
It's not an illusion...
WSB Champs - Carl Fogarty, James Toseland, Neal HodgsonIt's not an illusion...
GP500 Champs - Mike Hailwood, John Surtees, Barry Sheene, Geoff Duke, Phil Read, Leslie Graham
NONE!
Spot on Johno, agree.
Don't forget McWilliams on the podium at Donny the same year Dunlop sadly passed away on the 500 triple in Kenny Roberts team he also stuck it on pole once or twice, we've got the talent, look at Walker when he was the top scoring Kawasaki rider in WSB (had the win at Assen) and they sacked him over Nieto and Laconi due to the fact he did not bring the sponsorship in, thats in WSB Moto GP is a level above for sponsors.
One thing I will say is the 800's are so much closer to a WSB now, imagine the 500's every rookie would habve been highsided by now.
Going back to point of JT being to tough in GP's lets not forget Biaggi pushing Rossi out with his elbow, Rossi smashing into Gib on that last bend then wheeling across the line, Scwhantz and Rainey (class above) and so on.
Its a tough sport!
Don't forget McWilliams on the podium at Donny the same year Dunlop sadly passed away on the 500 triple in Kenny Roberts team he also stuck it on pole once or twice, we've got the talent, look at Walker when he was the top scoring Kawasaki rider in WSB (had the win at Assen) and they sacked him over Nieto and Laconi due to the fact he did not bring the sponsorship in, thats in WSB Moto GP is a level above for sponsors.
One thing I will say is the 800's are so much closer to a WSB now, imagine the 500's every rookie would habve been highsided by now.
Going back to point of JT being to tough in GP's lets not forget Biaggi pushing Rossi out with his elbow, Rossi smashing into Gib on that last bend then wheeling across the line, Scwhantz and Rainey (class above) and so on.
Its a tough sport!
Edited by 996 sps on Monday 21st April 15:36
Quinny said:
Were saying yesterday re- Rob Macks lack of a sponsor.
We just can't understand why such companies as the big Supermarket chains are not involved.
I would hazard a guess that they have environmental policies in place which bans all sponsorship of motorsport. We just can't understand why such companies as the big Supermarket chains are not involved.
It's the done thing, y'know.
My O/H recently asked HSBC for some sponsorship of the team I race for and was quoted this reason.
Although there are many sound arguments there, if you are good enough in sport, you will get to use the best equipment.
'A bad workman always blames his tools'. A very good and very true saying.
For proof, you need to look no further than the very young UK driver who had the 2006-2007 F1 GP car series sewn up, done and dusted and threw it away near the end with one single driving error, accidental or otherwise, depending which you believe.....
I knew Foggy quite well and i could tell that he knew he'd find it much harder in GP. Doohan and the rest of them would have beaten him more often than not.
'A bad workman always blames his tools'. A very good and very true saying.
For proof, you need to look no further than the very young UK driver who had the 2006-2007 F1 GP car series sewn up, done and dusted and threw it away near the end with one single driving error, accidental or otherwise, depending which you believe.....
I knew Foggy quite well and i could tell that he knew he'd find it much harder in GP. Doohan and the rest of them would have beaten him more often than not.
996 sps said:
Spot on Johno, agree.
Don't forget McWilliams on the podium at Donny the same year Dunlop sadly passed away on the 500 triple in Kenny Roberts team he also stuck it on pole once or twice, we've got the talent, look at Walker when he was the top scoring Kawasaki rider in WSB (had the win at Assen) and they sacked him over Nieto and Laconi due to the fact he did not bring the sponsorship in, thats in WSB Moto GP is a level above for sponsors.
One thing I will say is the 800's are so much closer to a WSB now, imagine the 500's every rookie would habve been highsided by now.
Going back to point of JT being to tough in GP's lets not forget Biaggi pushing Rossi out with his elbow, Rossi smashing into Gib on that last bend then wheeling across the line, Scwhantz and Rainey (class above) and so on.
Its a tough sport!
Spot on bloke, and all of what Johno said, can't believe we have a real tryer in GP and the blokes getting slated by some for 'overtaking'.Don't forget McWilliams on the podium at Donny the same year Dunlop sadly passed away on the 500 triple in Kenny Roberts team he also stuck it on pole once or twice, we've got the talent, look at Walker when he was the top scoring Kawasaki rider in WSB (had the win at Assen) and they sacked him over Nieto and Laconi due to the fact he did not bring the sponsorship in, thats in WSB Moto GP is a level above for sponsors.
One thing I will say is the 800's are so much closer to a WSB now, imagine the 500's every rookie would habve been highsided by now.
Going back to point of JT being to tough in GP's lets not forget Biaggi pushing Rossi out with his elbow, Rossi smashing into Gib on that last bend then wheeling across the line, Scwhantz and Rainey (class above) and so on.
Its a tough sport!
Edited by 996 sps on Monday 21st April 15:36
Sorry, but that's simply not true in racing.
You need to have championship winnnig kit, to win championships.
When Rossi moved to Yamaha, I can be quoted on here saying that the key decision remained whether Burgess moved from Honda as well, he did and the rest as they say is history. Without Burgess to sort that Yamaha in a way that meant Rossi could be competitive, he wouldn't have won, if you believe otherwise fair enough, but that bike wasn't up to winning championships, and Rossi with the genius that is Burgess made it competitive. They worked out how they could beat the opposition, and then made it a championship wining bike.
Too many top racers will tell ad nausiem (sp) that without the kit you can't regularly win races.
Take Thruxton this weekend. Michael Rutter has not been on the podium for 2 years after stints with teams that didn't have the kit. (3 x 3rd in BSB, 2 x 2nd and 1 x 4th - he's pretty damned good)
Give him a top bike, a good team and he podiums twice and chucks his lid in the crowd, as a bloke who isn't given to emotional outbursts that says a lot. He never stopped trying, but he didn't have the kit to do it with.
On the basis of your argument and going back to my point on Camier beating Stoner soundly for most of the season, why isn't Camier the MotoGP champion, cos if you're argument is right, nothing matters but talent ? Sadly that is far from the case in racing.
In reality who are . .
HM Plant
Buildbase
SMT
Hydrex
. . . not exactly house hold names are they . . without them though we wouldn't have the racing we do in the UK.
They are however UK based companies, not multinationals and unless your parents like Stoners are prepared to sell their house, move to another country and invest everything they ever earnt in your racing you are very unlikely to make it in the world of GP's.
I can't comment on what Foggy has said to you, but his book doesn't tell it like that, and that's the nearest source I have. I believe with competitive kit he would have won races at GP's, but winning championships is a very different thing. He certainly had the talent and race craft, probably the craftiest racer i have ever seen, he was a bloke who could win on lesser machinery. Check out channel 442 ESP at 9:30 tonight for another dose of legendary WSB racing . .
As for Toseland being too tough, I suggest Vermeulen needs a reality check. Dovvy needs to look at his own move on Toseland, Capirossi said tough but fair and Toselane apologised for getting it wrong against Lorenzo.
Vermeulen was just annoyed he got duffed up and is struggling generally this year.
They do seem to be getting a little pre madonna about it all though, there really isn't that much difference between the supers and the GP's and it seems the established riders want the illusion to remain . . . .
You need to have championship winnnig kit, to win championships.
When Rossi moved to Yamaha, I can be quoted on here saying that the key decision remained whether Burgess moved from Honda as well, he did and the rest as they say is history. Without Burgess to sort that Yamaha in a way that meant Rossi could be competitive, he wouldn't have won, if you believe otherwise fair enough, but that bike wasn't up to winning championships, and Rossi with the genius that is Burgess made it competitive. They worked out how they could beat the opposition, and then made it a championship wining bike.
Too many top racers will tell ad nausiem (sp) that without the kit you can't regularly win races.
Take Thruxton this weekend. Michael Rutter has not been on the podium for 2 years after stints with teams that didn't have the kit. (3 x 3rd in BSB, 2 x 2nd and 1 x 4th - he's pretty damned good)
Give him a top bike, a good team and he podiums twice and chucks his lid in the crowd, as a bloke who isn't given to emotional outbursts that says a lot. He never stopped trying, but he didn't have the kit to do it with.
On the basis of your argument and going back to my point on Camier beating Stoner soundly for most of the season, why isn't Camier the MotoGP champion, cos if you're argument is right, nothing matters but talent ? Sadly that is far from the case in racing.
In reality who are . .
HM Plant
Buildbase
SMT
Hydrex
. . . not exactly house hold names are they . . without them though we wouldn't have the racing we do in the UK.
They are however UK based companies, not multinationals and unless your parents like Stoners are prepared to sell their house, move to another country and invest everything they ever earnt in your racing you are very unlikely to make it in the world of GP's.
I can't comment on what Foggy has said to you, but his book doesn't tell it like that, and that's the nearest source I have. I believe with competitive kit he would have won races at GP's, but winning championships is a very different thing. He certainly had the talent and race craft, probably the craftiest racer i have ever seen, he was a bloke who could win on lesser machinery. Check out channel 442 ESP at 9:30 tonight for another dose of legendary WSB racing . .
As for Toseland being too tough, I suggest Vermeulen needs a reality check. Dovvy needs to look at his own move on Toseland, Capirossi said tough but fair and Toselane apologised for getting it wrong against Lorenzo.
Vermeulen was just annoyed he got duffed up and is struggling generally this year.
They do seem to be getting a little pre madonna about it all though, there really isn't that much difference between the supers and the GP's and it seems the established riders want the illusion to remain . . . .
996 sps said:
Disagree with the Foggy issue in WSB he jumped on the honda and could not do the biz, Kocinski did, won the title and got the 500 ride. That was when Foggy was on the Duke, a far better bike.
Correct.Foggy would not have made it at the very top at GP and everyone in the paddock i used to talk to agreed.
Beemer-5 said:
996 sps said:
Disagree with the Foggy issue in WSB he jumped on the honda and could not do the biz, Kocinski did, won the title and got the 500 ride. That was when Foggy was on the Duke, a far better bike.
Correct.Foggy would not have made it at the very top at GP and everyone in the paddock i used to talk to agreed.
everyone has diferent opinions, but i remember dohhan saying once (just after he retired) that he regretted vetoing the chance of having foggy as a team mate because he will always have the thought in his mind as to if he would have beaten him.
and, back to the op topic, if jt is so "dirty" then why is no critisicm levelled at edwards, he puts hard moves on as well but waited a couple of seasons as to not upset the megastars,where as jt has jumped in, decided to give it a proper shot and done what he needs to,just remember that some of those gaps left open by dovi,capirossi, vermulen etc would have had multiple riders jump through in wsb, anyone remember haga's pass on bayliss a few years back at the corkscrew??
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