Discussion
Can of worms opened I'm sure.....
I went on probably my 4th ever group (more than say 3 of us) ride yesterday where the steering/cornering question raised it's head.
Doing OK until someone suggests I should be "bolt upright" (i.e. inline with the bike) and not moving around when riding on the road but rather just countersteer. I mention this to the next guy and he looks dumbfounded.....
I then try this in the afternoon on the free for all bit and my cornering ability falls off the face of the earth......
Normally, I'm not hanging off like a racer but I move around a bit just because it feels more balanced I guess - especially so with a larger 19" front wheel. Maybe it's habit, maybe it's from years of riding sportier bikes in the past, taking a while to "actively" understand counter steering - I don't know.
What did occur to me is that the only time I've been told this before was by another boxer twin owner.....
Oh, and yes, yes it was an IAM run.
I went on probably my 4th ever group (more than say 3 of us) ride yesterday where the steering/cornering question raised it's head.
Doing OK until someone suggests I should be "bolt upright" (i.e. inline with the bike) and not moving around when riding on the road but rather just countersteer. I mention this to the next guy and he looks dumbfounded.....
I then try this in the afternoon on the free for all bit and my cornering ability falls off the face of the earth......
Normally, I'm not hanging off like a racer but I move around a bit just because it feels more balanced I guess - especially so with a larger 19" front wheel. Maybe it's habit, maybe it's from years of riding sportier bikes in the past, taking a while to "actively" understand counter steering - I don't know.
What did occur to me is that the only time I've been told this before was by another boxer twin owner.....
Oh, and yes, yes it was an IAM run.
Edited by Biker9090 on Monday 28th July 14:05
Edited by Biker9090 on Monday 28th July 14:08
For me it depends upon the bike and whether I can "hang off" easily.
Coming from sports bikes I used to go out and drag my knee on some fast sweepers, hang off like a monkey etc. Now I'm on a Superduke R with big wide bars and a wide comfy seat, I find it much harder to get off the seat and the width of the bars make it harder to get into a natural position where I am hanging off.
I probably move my backside a few inches on this bike compared to locking my outside knee against the tank and inner thigh against the seat unit previously.
But there is no right or wrong in real terms.
Coming from sports bikes I used to go out and drag my knee on some fast sweepers, hang off like a monkey etc. Now I'm on a Superduke R with big wide bars and a wide comfy seat, I find it much harder to get off the seat and the width of the bars make it harder to get into a natural position where I am hanging off.
I probably move my backside a few inches on this bike compared to locking my outside knee against the tank and inner thigh against the seat unit previously.
But there is no right or wrong in real terms.
As mentioned above, ride how you feel comfortable. However, the question you do need to ask yourself is, if an unplanned, unexpected situation happened, would I be in a comfortable position to be able to do what was required, be that braking, accelerating, steering or any combination of those? Hung off the side of the bike, with the knee on the floor suggests a "no" to me.
black-k1 said:
As mentioned above, ride how you feel comfortable. However, the question you do need to ask yourself is, if an unplanned, unexpected situation happened, would I be in a comfortable position to be able to do what was required, be that braking, accelerating, steering or any combination of those? Hung off the side of the bike, with the knee on the floor suggests a "no" to me.
I think there’s a bit of a difference between moving around a bit and dragging your knee which he wasn’t suggesting at all.As others have said ride how you feel comfortable. I move around a bit as I feel more comfortable doing it. Sitting in line with the bike doesn’t feel good to me.
SAS Tom said:
black-k1 said:
As mentioned above, ride how you feel comfortable. However, the question you do need to ask yourself is, if an unplanned, unexpected situation happened, would I be in a comfortable position to be able to do what was required, be that braking, accelerating, steering or any combination of those? Hung off the side of the bike, with the knee on the floor suggests a "no" to me.
I think there s a bit of a difference between moving around a bit and dragging your knee which he wasn t suggesting at all.As others have said ride how you feel comfortable. I move around a bit as I feel more comfortable doing it. Sitting in line with the bike doesn t feel good to me.
There's a document on the IAM website called "Full Control" which is well worth a read, and clearer than the advice you may have been given. "Bolt upright " is not advocated within it. Accurate steering is a benefit on the roads at all speeds, body positioning and movement becomes useful as pace increases.
Yes, this is what I couldn't quite get.
I'm not suggesting in anyway getting close to dragging a knee - just moving about a bit.
Being sat bolt upright (like some definitely were) just looked and felt as though it would lead to more of a lack of control or even a lowside. Like you can't feel what the front's doing.
Whereas dipping the shoulder a bit, and even sliding off slightly feels considerably more stable whilst also maintaining vision and not really inhibiting other possible emergency movements.
I can do countersteering or I wouldn't be here but not making any real kind of movement just feels completely wrong - "locked" as someone said above.
All rather ironic considering the previous guys words were "Good, I can see you were moving a bit and slightly loading the pegs"
......
I'm not suggesting in anyway getting close to dragging a knee - just moving about a bit.
Being sat bolt upright (like some definitely were) just looked and felt as though it would lead to more of a lack of control or even a lowside. Like you can't feel what the front's doing.
Whereas dipping the shoulder a bit, and even sliding off slightly feels considerably more stable whilst also maintaining vision and not really inhibiting other possible emergency movements.
I can do countersteering or I wouldn't be here but not making any real kind of movement just feels completely wrong - "locked" as someone said above.
All rather ironic considering the previous guys words were "Good, I can see you were moving a bit and slightly loading the pegs"
......A combination of lots of little elements come together to improve steering & cornering. Try each of them until they start to become automatic & see what works for you.
Dip your inside shoulder in the direction of the corner on approach. This puts your weight to the inside, but also bends your inside arm & straightens your outside arm in preperation for your initial countersteer input. I describe it as leading with your chin - some describe it as kissing yourself in the mirror. It also encourgaes you to look further through the corner.
When you turn the bike, push the inside bar if you want a very positive initial turn, or pull the outside bar if you want a smoother, more progressive turn. Loading the outside footpeg gives you something to anchor against when you start the turn, but isn’t essential.
Look right through the bend towards your exit. This is essential.
As you tip, or roll the bike into the corner, apply some positive throttle. Not enough to accelerate the bike yet, but enough to prevent it slowing down, start the process of transferring weight rearwards, and to compensate for the slight reduction in gearing associated with the lean angle.
As the corner opens up and you start to stand the bike up, add more throttle to accelerate the bike.
No real need to slide around on the seat on the road (no real harm either), but moving body weight (from the waist up) to the inside of the corner means the bike is slightly more upright (i.e. stable) than if you remain bolt upright.
Dip your inside shoulder in the direction of the corner on approach. This puts your weight to the inside, but also bends your inside arm & straightens your outside arm in preperation for your initial countersteer input. I describe it as leading with your chin - some describe it as kissing yourself in the mirror. It also encourgaes you to look further through the corner.
When you turn the bike, push the inside bar if you want a very positive initial turn, or pull the outside bar if you want a smoother, more progressive turn. Loading the outside footpeg gives you something to anchor against when you start the turn, but isn’t essential.
Look right through the bend towards your exit. This is essential.
As you tip, or roll the bike into the corner, apply some positive throttle. Not enough to accelerate the bike yet, but enough to prevent it slowing down, start the process of transferring weight rearwards, and to compensate for the slight reduction in gearing associated with the lean angle.
As the corner opens up and you start to stand the bike up, add more throttle to accelerate the bike.
No real need to slide around on the seat on the road (no real harm either), but moving body weight (from the waist up) to the inside of the corner means the bike is slightly more upright (i.e. stable) than if you remain bolt upright.
You will be counter steering without even thinking about what you are doing, everyone does it, if you didn't the bike wouldn't turn.
It's a subconscious thing, and little body movements, a lower shoulder, an inch or 2 on the seat or a foot lifted onto the toes on the foot peg are all part of turning a bike.
It's subtle stuff, but we all do it to some extent!
It's a subconscious thing, and little body movements, a lower shoulder, an inch or 2 on the seat or a foot lifted onto the toes on the foot peg are all part of turning a bike.
It's subtle stuff, but we all do it to some extent!
hiccy18 said:
There's a document on the IAM website called "Full Control" which is well worth a read, and clearer than the advice you may have been given. "Bolt upright " is not advocated within it. Accurate steering is a benefit on the roads at all speeds, body positioning and movement becomes useful as pace increases.
That's an interesting one, thanks.Again, on initial reading it seems that a few observers I've had might want to reread it.
Pissing wet this morning and awful quality back roads but ignoring what was said the other day I'm into the swing of it again by doing my normal small movements.
I shall have a proper read of that document.
To those that have offered, thank you. I may take you up on it sometime. I initially gave up on it a few years ago due to the conflicting feedback/tips but gave it another go this year as a final try after hearing they'd made it a bit more consistent.
For some reason I'm also faster when I'm on my own rather than in any group - can't quite understand that one...
Edited by Biker9090 on Tuesday 29th July 11:19
Forums | Biker Banter | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff