Track session lesson, novice!
Discussion
To build on Dibblecore's message and to inspire you with confidence on doing a track day first before CSS - I've completed a no limits day at Outlon park as a total total novice (and technically still am..) and survived fine. I rented a bike from Small Boys (A++++)
Matt (owner of small boys) talked me through it all - what to expect, and when to expect it.
Gavia and Hedgeb came and said hello and gave me a couple of tips. I met Mckean briefly, and someone else.
No limits instructors gave me some tips and came out with me to learn the track and coached me through a couple of laps.
I assumed i would be a rolling roadblock all day - i wasn't. Only a few people passed me, but they navigated around me.. Including one of the haslam's on the inside of a corner, at a considerable speed, and thoroughly impressed upon me that i was a total novice and had considerable learning to do..
I was bolt upright pretty much all the way round and doing shoulder checks - no one gave a sh*t.
I tried to stay predictable in the corners, and both during my entrance and exit.
Everyone was friendly.
I ensured i went out near the back of the group, and by doing so it minimised my exposure to bunching and traffic from the 'faster' novice's (hence minimal overtaking). It worked for me.
To again impress on anyone how friendly it was, no one gave a sh*t that i was bolt upright, a rolling roadblock, everyone wanted to help each other, and everyone was prepared to muck in.
However, from what i have read CSS will build more confidence and understanding into cornering, but it is far from necessary to get onto a track. It would help to progress. It is on my list of to do.
Matt (owner of small boys) talked me through it all - what to expect, and when to expect it.
Gavia and Hedgeb came and said hello and gave me a couple of tips. I met Mckean briefly, and someone else.
No limits instructors gave me some tips and came out with me to learn the track and coached me through a couple of laps.
I assumed i would be a rolling roadblock all day - i wasn't. Only a few people passed me, but they navigated around me.. Including one of the haslam's on the inside of a corner, at a considerable speed, and thoroughly impressed upon me that i was a total novice and had considerable learning to do..
I was bolt upright pretty much all the way round and doing shoulder checks - no one gave a sh*t.
I tried to stay predictable in the corners, and both during my entrance and exit.
Everyone was friendly.
I ensured i went out near the back of the group, and by doing so it minimised my exposure to bunching and traffic from the 'faster' novice's (hence minimal overtaking). It worked for me.
To again impress on anyone how friendly it was, no one gave a sh*t that i was bolt upright, a rolling roadblock, everyone wanted to help each other, and everyone was prepared to muck in.
However, from what i have read CSS will build more confidence and understanding into cornering, but it is far from necessary to get onto a track. It would help to progress. It is on my list of to do.
Edited by BobSaunders on Friday 19th January 10:58
BobSaunders said:
To build on Dibblecore's message and to inspire you with confidence on doing a track day first before CSS - I've completed a no limits day at Outlon park as a total total novice (and technically still am..) and survived fine. I rented a bike from Small Boys (A++++)
Matt (owner of small boys) talked me through it all - what to expect, and when to expect it.
Gavia and Hedgeb came and said hello and gave me a couple of tips. I met Mckean briefly, and someone else.
No limits instructors gave me some tips and came out with me to learn the track and coached me through a couple of laps.
I assumed i would be a rolling roadblock all day - i wasn't. Only a few people passed me, but they navigated around me.. Including one of the haslam's on the inside of a corner, at a considerable speed, and thoroughly impressed upon me that i was a total novice and had considerable learning to do..
I was bolt upright pretty much all the way round and doing shoulder checks - no one gave a sh*t.
I tried to stay predictable in the corners, and both during my entrance and exit.
Everyone was friendly.
I ensured i went out near the back of the group, and by doing so it minimised my exposure to bunching and traffic from the 'faster' novice's (hence minimal overtaking). It worked for me.
To again impress on anyone how friendly it was, no one gave a sh*t that i was bolt upright, a rolling roadblock, everyone wanted to help each other, and everyone was prepared to muck in.
However, from what i have read CSS will build more confidence and understanding into cornering, but it is far from necessary to get onto a track. It would help to progress. It is on my list of to do.
What he said .... and I couldn't be arsed to type ...... Matt (owner of small boys) talked me through it all - what to expect, and when to expect it.
Gavia and Hedgeb came and said hello and gave me a couple of tips. I met Mckean briefly, and someone else.
No limits instructors gave me some tips and came out with me to learn the track and coached me through a couple of laps.
I assumed i would be a rolling roadblock all day - i wasn't. Only a few people passed me, but they navigated around me.. Including one of the haslam's on the inside of a corner, at a considerable speed, and thoroughly impressed upon me that i was a total novice and had considerable learning to do..
I was bolt upright pretty much all the way round and doing shoulder checks - no one gave a sh*t.
I tried to stay predictable in the corners, and both during my entrance and exit.
Everyone was friendly.
I ensured i went out near the back of the group, and by doing so it minimised my exposure to bunching and traffic from the 'faster' novice's (hence minimal overtaking). It worked for me.
To again impress on anyone how friendly it was, no one gave a sh*t that i was bolt upright, a rolling roadblock, everyone wanted to help each other, and everyone was prepared to muck in.
However, from what i have read CSS will build more confidence and understanding into cornering, but it is far from necessary to get onto a track. It would help to progress. It is on my list of to do.
Edited by BobSaunders on Friday 19th January 10:58
It doesn’t need to be a Novice day. Every normal trackday runs three groups in 20 minute sessions, Novice, Inters, Advanced. A 20 minute session is plenty for someone doing their first trackday. On No Limit day’s instruction is available all day and is free (unless you want all day tuition then there is a fee).
Go and enjoy a track-day for yourself. Nobody is expecting you to set lap records.
Go and enjoy a track-day for yourself. Nobody is expecting you to set lap records.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
No idea. I can’t see it being open pitlane at that level, but it’d be difficult to sell out three full novice groups too. EDIT: details in link below. Looks like they run bikes and novice cars on the same day in different groups
http://www.msvtrackdays.com/bike/calendar/2018/feb...
They look like a good idea to me.
Edited by Gavia on Friday 19th January 23:49
I had a bad experience on a track day and it's really put me off. I was on a borrowed, breathed on 4XV R1 track bike and it was the fastest thing that I'd ever ridden, I'd only been riding about 2 years and I had only covered about 2,000 road miles at that point. I've now been riding 5 and a half years and still only covered about 5,000 miles which I feel leaves me lacking in experience.
I was on a track that I didn't know that well (one of the Rockingham infields). I was as fast as anyone else on the right handers, but I was so slow on left handers (I clipped the ground with my toe in the morning session and scared myself), I felt that I was a bloody liability after that. On this R1, I was pretty much the slowest thing out there in the novice session! That was my last time on track.
As a fast car driver that dented my confidence badly, I'm now taking to classic style motorcross tracks on a dirt bike to try and build my confidence.
With tuition do you get a 2 way radio where they can tell you not to be such a pussy?
I put my bad experience down to a low speed drop just 6 months after passing my test. It knocked the stuffing out of my confidence, only riding my new to me KTM on supermoto wheels seems to be restoring that confidence.
I was on a track that I didn't know that well (one of the Rockingham infields). I was as fast as anyone else on the right handers, but I was so slow on left handers (I clipped the ground with my toe in the morning session and scared myself), I felt that I was a bloody liability after that. On this R1, I was pretty much the slowest thing out there in the novice session! That was my last time on track.
As a fast car driver that dented my confidence badly, I'm now taking to classic style motorcross tracks on a dirt bike to try and build my confidence.
With tuition do you get a 2 way radio where they can tell you not to be such a pussy?
I put my bad experience down to a low speed drop just 6 months after passing my test. It knocked the stuffing out of my confidence, only riding my new to me KTM on supermoto wheels seems to be restoring that confidence.
Two way radio would be a really bad idea. They follow you to start with and get an idea of what the first thing is that needs looking at and then build from there. The problem is too many go on track and have one aim and that’s to get their kneedown, which is completely the wrong approach to going fast.
Learn the lines, ride steady and smooth and smooth becomes fast. Learn body position, cornering and you get to be a solid track rider. Too many ragged riders trying to copy Marquez’s style and thinking by being out of shape that they’re fast.
Feet down is a sign that you’re probably sitting incorrectly on the bike. Feet do go down, but a long time after knee and other things if done correctly.
Aa a side note, I think Rockingham is a really poor circuit for bikes.
Learn the lines, ride steady and smooth and smooth becomes fast. Learn body position, cornering and you get to be a solid track rider. Too many ragged riders trying to copy Marquez’s style and thinking by being out of shape that they’re fast.
Feet down is a sign that you’re probably sitting incorrectly on the bike. Feet do go down, but a long time after knee and other things if done correctly.
Aa a side note, I think Rockingham is a really poor circuit for bikes.
Lines I have no problem with, I've done car track days and I've also done a couple of time attack events and I was at the sharp end. Put me on a bike though and I'm slow...
My problem at Rockingham was purely about turning left, you're right about body position, it was pointed out to me that I had my feet incorrectly on the pegs. I corrected that in the next session after chatting to someone in the pits but my confidence never returned, I wonder if that fear was also down to the fact that my crash was on the left, entering a side road.
Maybe I need to do another session on one of my own bikes at a circuit that I'm more comfortable on.
My problem at Rockingham was purely about turning left, you're right about body position, it was pointed out to me that I had my feet incorrectly on the pegs. I corrected that in the next session after chatting to someone in the pits but my confidence never returned, I wonder if that fear was also down to the fact that my crash was on the left, entering a side road.
Maybe I need to do another session on one of my own bikes at a circuit that I'm more comfortable on.
555 Paul said:
I had a bad experience on a track day and it's really put me off. I was on a borrowed, breathed on 4XV R1 track bike and it was the fastest thing that I'd ever ridden, I'd only been riding about 2 years and I had only covered about 2,000 road miles at that point. I've now been riding 5 and a half years and still only covered about 5,000 miles which I feel leaves me lacking in experience.
I was on a track that I didn't know that well (one of the Rockingham infields). I was as fast as anyone else on the right handers, but I was so slow on left handers (I clipped the ground with my toe in the morning session and scared myself), I felt that I was a bloody liability after that. On this R1, I was pretty much the slowest thing out there in the novice session! That was my last time on track.
As a fast car driver that dented my confidence badly, I'm now taking to classic style motorcross tracks on a dirt bike to try and build my confidence.
With tuition do you get a 2 way radio where they can tell you not to be such a pussy?
I put my bad experience down to a low speed drop just 6 months after passing my test. It knocked the stuffing out of my confidence, only riding my new to me KTM on supermoto wheels seems to be restoring that confidence.
Try CSS i did level 1 last year and had a great time. No radio but they give plenty of instruction, mixing observations, a bit of following and plenty feedback. Really improved my positioning and setup for tackling bends. See previous threads but I absolutely think it was worth it. Take your own bike so you know the vehicle, it isn't the kind of event where you will bin it. Hell the first session is all in one gear, no brakes. They break it all down and build you up again.I was on a track that I didn't know that well (one of the Rockingham infields). I was as fast as anyone else on the right handers, but I was so slow on left handers (I clipped the ground with my toe in the morning session and scared myself), I felt that I was a bloody liability after that. On this R1, I was pretty much the slowest thing out there in the novice session! That was my last time on track.
As a fast car driver that dented my confidence badly, I'm now taking to classic style motorcross tracks on a dirt bike to try and build my confidence.
With tuition do you get a 2 way radio where they can tell you not to be such a pussy?
I put my bad experience down to a low speed drop just 6 months after passing my test. It knocked the stuffing out of my confidence, only riding my new to me KTM on supermoto wheels seems to be restoring that confidence.
Gavia said:
No idea. I can’t see it being open pitlane at that level, but it’d be difficult to sell out three full novice groups too.
EDIT: details in link below. Looks like they run bikes and novice cars on the same day in different groups
http://www.msvtrackdays.com/bike/calendar/2018/feb...
They look like a good idea to me.
They look really good and a great price as well. I want to book in for the 20th March but don't know weather to go on my current bike - an old 600 hornet or get my next bike a speed triple beforehand...EDIT: details in link below. Looks like they run bikes and novice cars on the same day in different groups
http://www.msvtrackdays.com/bike/calendar/2018/feb...
They look like a good idea to me.
Edited by Gavia on Friday 19th January 23:49
Obviously I'd rather do it on the speed triple but what if I bin It! ?
Do many come off or do you have to be riding like a complete tt for it to happen?
WarnieV6GT said:
They look really good and a great price as well. I want to book in for the 20th March but don't know weather to go on my current bike - an old 600 hornet or get my next bike a speed triple beforehand...
Obviously I'd rather do it on the speed triple but what if I bin It! ?
Do many come off or do you have to be riding like a complete tt for it to happen?
Some days will be a crashfest, some days won’t. The only reason you’ll crash is your ambition outweighs your talent. Whichever bike you’re on is likely to better than you are if you’re honest. You don’t have to be riding like a tt, many have silly crashes, such as panicking before a corner that they can get round with ease and running straight on. Obviously I'd rather do it on the speed triple but what if I bin It! ?
Do many come off or do you have to be riding like a complete tt for it to happen?
Take the older bike as you’ll be more relaxed.
Gavia said:
Some days will be a crashfest, some days won’t. The only reason you’ll crash is your ambition outweighs your talent. Whichever bike you’re on is likely to better than you are if you’re honest. You don’t have to be riding like a tt, many have silly crashes, such as panicking before a corner that they can get round with ease and running straight on.
Take the older bike as you’ll be more relaxed.
Cheers Gavia.Take the older bike as you’ll be more relaxed.
Your right, I would feel more relaxed on the hornet. My problem is, is that it's a bit small size wise for me and I'm pretty sure it'll be on the original rear shock. But it's just the 1st of many track days I suppose so sod it...
OP, and 555, have you thought about doing the Haslam school? It's less full-on than CSS and you'll also likely feel less pressure than a regular trackday. It's slightly dependent on who you get as your instructor but I did it twice, years ago now, and the instructors we (mate & I) had used the first session to suss out whether and how we could ride, then tuned the next sessions accordingly. You'll learn the basics of track riding, whereas CSS (which I've also done, up to L3) is more about making you better and faster. Haslam, then a few practice TDs, then CSS would be my recommendation.
For example, I think it's L1 at CSS where you have to lap without touching the brakes. At all. That's good for building skills but could freak you out if you haven't done any (or much) track time before.
For example, I think it's L1 at CSS where you have to lap without touching the brakes. At all. That's good for building skills but could freak you out if you haven't done any (or much) track time before.
dibblecorse said:
What he said .... and I couldn't be arsed to type ......
So the synopsis is just do a track day, see if I like it and go from there.Silverstone, no other reason other than its only as few miles away and it's a great track, do quite a few in the year so I booked in 15th April!
I think my strategy will be to take it easy and enjoy the unrestrictions of the road.
CAPP0 said:
OP, and 555, have you thought about doing the Haslam school? It's less full-on than CSS and you'll also likely feel less pressure than a regular trackday. It's slightly dependent on who you get as your instructor but I did it twice, years ago now, and the instructors we (mate & I) had used the first session to suss out whether and how we could ride, then tuned the next sessions accordingly. You'll learn the basics of track riding, whereas CSS (which I've also done, up to L3) is more about making you better and faster. Haslam, then a few practice TDs, then CSS would be my recommendation.
For example, I think it's L1 at CSS where you have to lap without touching the brakes. At all. That's good for building skills but could freak you out if you haven't done any (or much) track time before.
Hi,For example, I think it's L1 at CSS where you have to lap without touching the brakes. At all. That's good for building skills but could freak you out if you haven't done any (or much) track time before.
I have thought about it a few times, I really should get around to doing it. I looked into the CSS earlier after the recommendation and I was pleased to see that they run courses at Donington Park, it's even better that Ron Haslam's school is based there. I've done a car day there and loved the track, I'll get a day booked at Ron Haslam and go from there.
Thanks for the advice so far.
I only ever did one track day which was actually a demo day for BMW back in around '04. Loved the opportunity to ride with nothing coming the other way, loved the fact CSS were there, and I asked if they could help me (despite feeling a twit asking), the guy said he'd watch me and left me to it, upright, wobbling, panicking in particular, then he came up out of the blue, tapped the back of his bike as if to say stay here, so I tried to, the worst thing attempting to deal with the horrendous panic approaching a bend.
The thing was, it was great, the guy showed that braking in a much better way, later actually, smooth but firm, more importantly I though, was on a completely different part of the track, staying out for a later much smoother turn in, amazing. I was still slow haha, and what totally ruined the day which CSS had absolutely no control over, partly because it was a BMW day, and the idea was you rode your bike then theirs, was that the lunatics that jumped on BMW's bikes rode like utter s and trashed several bikes. Surviving this they were all gobstes full of their track prowess laughing about there heroic offs while hanging about the photo van trying to get the picture of them in near death, not to mention the CSS riders or us others on track the bike they were riding could have killed as it went end over end down the road.
Since, I regularly attend Ty Croes to spectate at TD's, and really wish I could drag my confidence back up to try one. I have some wonderful bike I'd like to be able to try to ride in this environment, and am just left plain scared to be honest.
I've ridden all my life ok, and superbikes 17 years, I live on the Wirral near North Wales and go there a lot, and am not slow, but that is not the same as a track experience in any way whatsoever.
I too have witness the hangers off trying to get their knee down, and frankly wouldn't want to be near them on track, many look to be a total liability, just study some of the track day images of this and anyone can see their riding priority was anything to get off the bike to scratch a pad rather than be controlled and smooth.
Anyway I'm rambling,
One day I'll do it, I'm 52 in a minute, I've had a few big 'ish' pretty much head on incidents which weren't my fault (we all say that haha) and something like 12 operations, two major abdominal, yet I 'make' myself ride again to sort my head out and have got a lot of the confidence back, but it's hard, tiring, and required complete determination sometimes to get out and get on with it. So, I really really do want to try a TD, or training. I know I'm a good rider, I trust my friends that say that, it's not being big headed, but I suspect they know I need reassuring.
So this is a good thread, and nice to read the OP booked on, brave thing to do and I hope you update the thread with your experience if you can find it in the PH list haha.
Just my2p ;O)
The thing was, it was great, the guy showed that braking in a much better way, later actually, smooth but firm, more importantly I though, was on a completely different part of the track, staying out for a later much smoother turn in, amazing. I was still slow haha, and what totally ruined the day which CSS had absolutely no control over, partly because it was a BMW day, and the idea was you rode your bike then theirs, was that the lunatics that jumped on BMW's bikes rode like utter s and trashed several bikes. Surviving this they were all gobstes full of their track prowess laughing about there heroic offs while hanging about the photo van trying to get the picture of them in near death, not to mention the CSS riders or us others on track the bike they were riding could have killed as it went end over end down the road.
Since, I regularly attend Ty Croes to spectate at TD's, and really wish I could drag my confidence back up to try one. I have some wonderful bike I'd like to be able to try to ride in this environment, and am just left plain scared to be honest.
I've ridden all my life ok, and superbikes 17 years, I live on the Wirral near North Wales and go there a lot, and am not slow, but that is not the same as a track experience in any way whatsoever.
I too have witness the hangers off trying to get their knee down, and frankly wouldn't want to be near them on track, many look to be a total liability, just study some of the track day images of this and anyone can see their riding priority was anything to get off the bike to scratch a pad rather than be controlled and smooth.
Anyway I'm rambling,
One day I'll do it, I'm 52 in a minute, I've had a few big 'ish' pretty much head on incidents which weren't my fault (we all say that haha) and something like 12 operations, two major abdominal, yet I 'make' myself ride again to sort my head out and have got a lot of the confidence back, but it's hard, tiring, and required complete determination sometimes to get out and get on with it. So, I really really do want to try a TD, or training. I know I'm a good rider, I trust my friends that say that, it's not being big headed, but I suspect they know I need reassuring.
So this is a good thread, and nice to read the OP booked on, brave thing to do and I hope you update the thread with your experience if you can find it in the PH list haha.
Just my2p ;O)
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