Top end tappety type noise
Discussion
OK back to some basics.....
I have set the engine to TDC No1 cylinder using bodgers method ie long screw driver in No1 spark plug hole rotate engine back and forth till TDC obtained......check timing marks on pulley.
and behold they are miles off.
Whites marks on pulley are at TDC, 6 Degrees adv and 12 Degrees adv
New tdc marked on pulley and will now put plugs back in and reset distributor timing
is 8 degrees at idle and 28 at 3000rpm right ?
I have set the engine to TDC No1 cylinder using bodgers method ie long screw driver in No1 spark plug hole rotate engine back and forth till TDC obtained......check timing marks on pulley.
and behold they are miles off.
Whites marks on pulley are at TDC, 6 Degrees adv and 12 Degrees adv
New tdc marked on pulley and will now put plugs back in and reset distributor timing
is 8 degrees at idle and 28 at 3000rpm right ?
Steve_D said:
You need to be really sure about true TDC.
I use a dead stop which is a modified spark plug with a length of M8 bolt out the end.
A selection for different engines.
Screw it into No.1 and carefully wind the crank round clockwise until the piston comes up to the stop. Mark the pulley at the timing pointer. Wind counter clock until the piston again come to the stop. Mark pulley. TDC is half way between these two points.
Now to your problem which looks to be a broken pulley. The pulley is actually a vibration damper and consists of the inner section which fits on the crank and the outer ring that has the timing marks. They are joined together with rubber in the same way as a factory fit suspension bush.
The rubber bond has broken down and the outer ring has moved. The problem is that the ring has been drilled as part of balancing the engine so the engine is now out of balance. We had one a few years ago and we sent it over to Powers (I think) who measured the balance drillings and drilled a new one to the same.
Steve
WOW.....Now that is interesting.I use a dead stop which is a modified spark plug with a length of M8 bolt out the end.
A selection for different engines.
Screw it into No.1 and carefully wind the crank round clockwise until the piston comes up to the stop. Mark the pulley at the timing pointer. Wind counter clock until the piston again come to the stop. Mark pulley. TDC is half way between these two points.
Now to your problem which looks to be a broken pulley. The pulley is actually a vibration damper and consists of the inner section which fits on the crank and the outer ring that has the timing marks. They are joined together with rubber in the same way as a factory fit suspension bush.
The rubber bond has broken down and the outer ring has moved. The problem is that the ring has been drilled as part of balancing the engine so the engine is now out of balance. We had one a few years ago and we sent it over to Powers (I think) who measured the balance drillings and drilled a new one to the same.
Steve
Firstly you folks are amazing, always there to help a fellow TVRer in their hour of need. I am indeed in that hour losing the will to carry on at the moment after today. more on that in a moment
Apologies my profile needs updating car is 98 serpentine, the 93 one was my first one.
Will be attacking the bottom pulley as soon as I can find a breaker bar suitable.
Yesterday put it all back together ready for timing set up. All done fine and set at 12 degrees adv on idle. observed it advances more as engine revs increase.
Noticed cylinders 5 & 7 exhausts are completely cold. ie 50 degree when all others are at 250 degrees plus
Checked firing order all good
Swapped ignition leads no change
Checked sparks, same as all other cylinders, not super fat sparks but they are sparking
Swapped plugs no change
listened to injectors with stethoscope all sound the same.
Measured compression on cold engine though both registered 140 psi same as all others
Dismantled top end again to inspect valve lifts all clearly lifting but couldn't measure actual mm of lift as dial gauge was lent out.
Swapped injectors from good cylinders, not that as they performed ok in new locations
reassembled everything and restarted it.
Still not joy, 5 & 7 exhausts still stone cold.
My thoughts.............stumped on this now
Head gasket ?
Apologies my profile needs updating car is 98 serpentine, the 93 one was my first one.
Will be attacking the bottom pulley as soon as I can find a breaker bar suitable.
Yesterday put it all back together ready for timing set up. All done fine and set at 12 degrees adv on idle. observed it advances more as engine revs increase.
Noticed cylinders 5 & 7 exhausts are completely cold. ie 50 degree when all others are at 250 degrees plus
Checked firing order all good
Swapped ignition leads no change
Checked sparks, same as all other cylinders, not super fat sparks but they are sparking
Swapped plugs no change
listened to injectors with stethoscope all sound the same.
Measured compression on cold engine though both registered 140 psi same as all others
Dismantled top end again to inspect valve lifts all clearly lifting but couldn't measure actual mm of lift as dial gauge was lent out.
Swapped injectors from good cylinders, not that as they performed ok in new locations
reassembled everything and restarted it.
Still not joy, 5 & 7 exhausts still stone cold.
My thoughts.............stumped on this now
Head gasket ?
QBee said:
That's kiboshed that idea....
Next thought - 5 and 7 are next to each other in the firing order, so must be adjacent in the distributor.
Are they getting enough contact to generate a big enough spark?
if you run the engine for 30 seconds and then switch off and remove numbers 5&7 plugs, are they wet or dry?
I'm on the same page there. Next thought - 5 and 7 are next to each other in the firing order, so must be adjacent in the distributor.
Are they getting enough contact to generate a big enough spark?
if you run the engine for 30 seconds and then switch off and remove numbers 5&7 plugs, are they wet or dry?
I will take a look in the cap again. Looked OK a couple days ago before reassembly but lets see.
Will do that check for wet plugs
Also will pull the fuel rail & injectors and rig it up with test tube on each injector to confirm and compare quantity of fuel delivered whilst cranking the engine.
At the moment it doesnt add up.
It appears I have fuel, spark at correct time and compression so thats all the fundamentals covered so they should fire but they dont so 1 of those 3 assumptions is false.
Good points, the results are in
Is it on flat ?
Yes. Removed and refitted for good measure
Is fuel getting in ?
Yes. Removed king lead cranked for 30 seconds. Removed plugs 2 and 7 both wet with petrol
Off to buy new cap rotor arm ignition module
Anyone know the part numbers drawing a bkank on google.
Is it on flat ?
Yes. Removed and refitted for good measure
Is fuel getting in ?
Yes. Removed king lead cranked for 30 seconds. Removed plugs 2 and 7 both wet with petrol
Off to buy new cap rotor arm ignition module
Anyone know the part numbers drawing a bkank on google.
Tried timing light on all cylinders
All showing same consistent spark and each was reporting same rpm ie 950 +/- 20 suggesting consistent rates too I guess.
One thing I did discover is that cap was on 180 degrees out, my fault been like it a while maybe 6 months since when I fitted new leads.
Note to self: there is a notch inside the cap that is supposed to locate on a lug on distributor body. It is possible to mount it without that engaged.
Fitted new cap, rotor arm and ignition module and for good measure swapped out the ECU for a spare I have.
Result......computer says no, still no joy 5 & 7 still cold.
I'm completely lost now, the only things I can think of are
1. check preloads although I cant rationalise how that would do this
2. heads off for internal inspection of valve gear and state of pistons and bores
1st time an engine has ever beaten me to this level
All showing same consistent spark and each was reporting same rpm ie 950 +/- 20 suggesting consistent rates too I guess.
One thing I did discover is that cap was on 180 degrees out, my fault been like it a while maybe 6 months since when I fitted new leads.
Note to self: there is a notch inside the cap that is supposed to locate on a lug on distributor body. It is possible to mount it without that engaged.
Fitted new cap, rotor arm and ignition module and for good measure swapped out the ECU for a spare I have.
Result......computer says no, still no joy 5 & 7 still cold.
I'm completely lost now, the only things I can think of are
1. check preloads although I cant rationalise how that would do this
2. heads off for internal inspection of valve gear and state of pistons and bores
1st time an engine has ever beaten me to this level
Steve_D said:
blaze_away said:
............Cracking idea on the timing light on 5 & 7
We also use these as they are simple to use.https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AccuSpark-Sparkplug-HT-...
Steve
QBee said:
....all electrics throughly investigated and/or replaced, plugs 5&7 dry, exhaust manifold at 5&7 still cold.
Suggests no fuel at those cylinders. Either blocked injectors, or injectors not being fired.
Do the injectors fire in pairs, side by side?
On std 14CUX so I believe they are fired in banks ie evens and odds.Suggests no fuel at those cylinders. Either blocked injectors, or injectors not being fired.
Do the injectors fire in pairs, side by side?
I did run a test earlier today King lead off cranked for 30 seconds removed plugs from cylinder 2 and cylinder 7 both were wet with petrol. Not much of a quatitative measure so will remove fuel rail and injectors and crank for a while into test tubes to compare quantities
Qbee I had my first Volvo in 95 V70 T5 company car my god that wasnt an antique dealers Transit. Well it was it was both a maniac if you wanted it and docile if you had a wsrdrobe to shift. Then had 5 new ones every 2 years after that but 2.4 diesels. Plus wife had 2 civics in same period great cars.
Aĺun D coming over today to throw spanners at it too. Primarily to help get manifolds off so I can change exhaust gaskets to elimate those as source of original problem
No doubt we will also take a look at 5 n 7 problem
And "if this goes on much longer" I might begin considering the merits and methods of self harming as a mild distraction.
If you do feel the urge to bring spanners and spares I would be endebted to you and very grateful. I'm good at tea making !
Aĺun D coming over today to throw spanners at it too. Primarily to help get manifolds off so I can change exhaust gaskets to elimate those as source of original problem
No doubt we will also take a look at 5 n 7 problem
And "if this goes on much longer" I might begin considering the merits and methods of self harming as a mild distraction.
If you do feel the urge to bring spanners and spares I would be endebted to you and very grateful. I'm good at tea making !
phazed said:
It really does sound like the strangest problem.
Just out of interest, have you swapped some HT leads around so you actually eliminate the leads themselves?
Yep got an identical brand new set of leads so swapped for those still cold.Just out of interest, have you swapped some HT leads around so you actually eliminate the leads themselves?
BUT
Interestingly Alun D came over and by a process of joint observation we both agreed that the spark on plug attached to a lead and earthed initially is quite fat on first crank of the engine then becomes weaker and using an old plug the spark appeared stronger ie Als old bpr6es stronger spark than my 1000 mile old bpr6es.
And oddly No5 appeared to start firing we think difficult to be sure as it was feckin hot in there.
When it stops raining I will
Fit new plugs all round
Refit an old spare set of leads
Buy a new coil and fit that
Well after a couple of days efforts with Alun we've uncovered some significant findings
Bad running cold 5 and 7 cylinders
I unknowingly bought fake BPR6ES plugs !!
Fitted 2 old bc7ecs and now they run not perfectly but maybe the other 6 fake plugs are having an impact too
Will try to source genuine items tomorrow
Tappety noise
Have discovered the main crankshaft front pulley had been fitted with the wrong size woodruff key allowing the pulley to freely move on the shaft. Way to short not tall enough but correct width. No witness marks of any damage at all so with luck will get away with just fitting a new woodruff key.
Getting somewhere now I think.
Bad running cold 5 and 7 cylinders
I unknowingly bought fake BPR6ES plugs !!
Fitted 2 old bc7ecs and now they run not perfectly but maybe the other 6 fake plugs are having an impact too
Will try to source genuine items tomorrow
Tappety noise
Have discovered the main crankshaft front pulley had been fitted with the wrong size woodruff key allowing the pulley to freely move on the shaft. Way to short not tall enough but correct width. No witness marks of any damage at all so with luck will get away with just fitting a new woodruff key.
Getting somewhere now I think.
phazed said:
Just what I thought the spark plugs. I even said to Alan that it is a possibility but highly unlikely to be the Woodruff key, we discussed that on the phone. Amazing that someone would fit the wrong key.
The correct one is amazingly large.
Much appreciated Peter. You and Alun talking offline is a real help. Wasnt looking forward to trying to source a new balance pulley and then having to get it drilled had trouble written all over it.The correct one is amazingly large.
Will inspect the timing gear and maybe even pull the cam for a look and measure too.
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