Starter motor heat shield
Discussion
sixor8 said:
Yes, a starter motor may get very hot if in stationary traffic, but most people have issues when coming back to a warm / hot car after it's been sat a while, with the engine off, due to heat soak
Agreed and the chances are that the car has been driven well away from local help by the time it's engine has heated upFault's often cured by lubricating the solenoid orifice and plunger
No simple cure for bad commutation though, motor requires skim of its commutator and new brush set
I'll try and test it at the weekend. The problem is getting to test the thing easily while it's still hot. I've been using a mates ramp but I don't want to impose too much. Otherwise putting it on stands will likely take me as long as it needs to cool back to a working state.
Sounds like the consensus is that a shield trying to block radiant heat is a waste of time but one of the material used to protect the wings may be of use. I think I'll order one of these for once I've fixed the issue to protect it.
Sounds like the consensus is that a shield trying to block radiant heat is a waste of time but one of the material used to protect the wings may be of use. I think I'll order one of these for once I've fixed the issue to protect it.
Polly Grigora said:
Heat doesn't get blown past the starter once the cars parked up, engine's turned off and the cooling fans have shut down
Main problem is heat drying out the solenoid plungers lubricant
Bad commutation is the other big fail that fools many into replacing a solenoid rather than checking the commutator and brushes, solenoid relies on good commutation to pull the pinion into the flywheel
Anyway, anyone can throw parts at a car, a starter motor test on the vehicle is the only way of proving what's failing
Agreed heat shields of any description won’t correct whatever’s causing the starter system to fail. Main problem is heat drying out the solenoid plungers lubricant
Bad commutation is the other big fail that fools many into replacing a solenoid rather than checking the commutator and brushes, solenoid relies on good commutation to pull the pinion into the flywheel
Anyway, anyone can throw parts at a car, a starter motor test on the vehicle is the only way of proving what's failing
But that’s not the question being asked!
Heat soak from the radiator fans blowing and engine and manifold still transmit huge amounts of heat towards the starter when in heavy traffic or indeed when you park up.
If wrapping the starter protects it from the heat when moving to some degree and a reduction of say 10d might just be all it takes then when stationary and obviously no blow by it might just help protect it. For the pennies it cost me to make it I believe it has good effects.
Others may differ.
75,000 miles in my starter system has never failed and in the 40,000 I’ve put on the car as a daily driver it’s never run slow or hesitated in anyway.
That’s just for balance as the starters often last and like mine most are probably original so don’t really need protecting
Edited by Classic Chim on Thursday 19th October 19:13
indigochim said:
I'll try and test it at the weekend. The problem is getting to test the thing easily while it's still hot. I've been using a mates ramp but I don't want to impose too much. Otherwise putting it on stands will likely take me as long as it needs to cool back to a working state.
Sounds like the consensus is that a shield trying to block radiant heat is a waste of time but one of the material used to protect the wings may be of use. I think I'll order one of these for once I've fixed the issue to protect it.
Very nice. Sounds like the consensus is that a shield trying to block radiant heat is a waste of time but one of the material used to protect the wings may be of use. I think I'll order one of these for once I've fixed the issue to protect it.
Ultimately you need to track down what’s failing then this might act as some preventative medicine going forward.
The engine bay is like an oven. Cladding something in tin foil is not going to protect it from the heat.
When its hot all i do is open the bonnet when we stop. By the time we have both been for a leak its a lot cooler.
No problems so far. Its a magnet, people come to look at the heat haze & ask has it broken down.
All agree its hot.
When its hot all i do is open the bonnet when we stop. By the time we have both been for a leak its a lot cooler.
No problems so far. Its a magnet, people come to look at the heat haze & ask has it broken down.
All agree its hot.
Dalamar said:
Out of curiosity is there such thing as a starter motor heat shield for the Chimaera?
indigochim said:
Bump on this as I think my starter/solenoid has been destroyed by heat from my exhaust.
Classic Chim said:
Polly Grigora said:
Heat doesn't get blown past the starter once the cars parked up, engine's turned off and the cooling fans have shut down
Main problem is heat drying out the solenoid plungers lubricant
Bad commutation is the other big fail that fools many into replacing a solenoid rather than checking the commutator and brushes, solenoid relies on good commutation to pull the pinion into the flywheel
Anyway, anyone can throw parts at a car, a starter motor test on the vehicle is the only way of proving what's failing
Agreed heat shields of any description won’t correct whatever’s causing the starter system to fail. Main problem is heat drying out the solenoid plungers lubricant
Bad commutation is the other big fail that fools many into replacing a solenoid rather than checking the commutator and brushes, solenoid relies on good commutation to pull the pinion into the flywheel
Anyway, anyone can throw parts at a car, a starter motor test on the vehicle is the only way of proving what's failing
But that’s not the question being asked!
As we all know, heat shields do help to stop too much heat reaching a component
Agreed, heat shields won't fix knackered starter motors
fieryfred said:
The engine bay is like an oven. Cladding something in tin foil is not going to protect it from the heat.
When its hot all i do is open the bonnet when we stop. By the time we have both been for a leak its a lot cooler.
No problems so far. Its a magnet, people come to look at the heat haze & ask has it broken down.
All agree its hot.
Really When its hot all i do is open the bonnet when we stop. By the time we have both been for a leak its a lot cooler.
No problems so far. Its a magnet, people come to look at the heat haze & ask has it broken down.
All agree its hot.
well how do the inner wing heat shields deflect the heat from reaching the cabin then? 
some of the starter motor heat is soaked up from the fact its bolted to the block but the culprit heat is from the exhaust manifolds and the poor airflow being stuck at the rear of the engine bay tunnel If anyone is having the hot start issue and needing to track where the problem lies then get a length of fairly heavy gauge automotive wire and fit a piggyback terminal on the end.
Disconnect the 'start' wire from the starter solenoid and replace it with your new wire. Now fit the 'start' wire to the piggyback.
You now have 2 ways to excite the starter. One by way of your normal start sequence the other by way of connecting the other end of the new wire to +12V.
With that in place you now wait for the next time you have a start fail. If the engine will not crank using either method then the issue is with the starter/solenoid. If it does crank with the new cable then the issue is within the switch, immobiliser, start wire system but at least you get to continue your journey.
Steve
Disconnect the 'start' wire from the starter solenoid and replace it with your new wire. Now fit the 'start' wire to the piggyback.
You now have 2 ways to excite the starter. One by way of your normal start sequence the other by way of connecting the other end of the new wire to +12V.
With that in place you now wait for the next time you have a start fail. If the engine will not crank using either method then the issue is with the starter/solenoid. If it does crank with the new cable then the issue is within the switch, immobiliser, start wire system but at least you get to continue your journey.
Steve
Sardonicus said:
Really well how do the inner wing heat shields deflect the heat from reaching the cabin then? some of the starter motor heat is soaked up from the fact its bolted to the block but the culprit heat is from the exhaust manifolds and the poor airflow being stuck at the rear of the engine bay tunnel
The heat is trapped in the engine bay when slow moving or stopping. The bonnet vents help but opening the bonnet lets it all out. well how do the inner wing heat shields deflect the heat from reaching the cabin then? some of the starter motor heat is soaked up from the fact its bolted to the block but the culprit heat is from the exhaust manifolds and the poor airflow being stuck at the rear of the engine bay tunnel Heat rises.
As to what your point is. fieryfred said:
Sardonicus said:
Really well how do the inner wing heat shields deflect the heat from reaching the cabin then? some of the starter motor heat is soaked up from the fact its bolted to the block but the culprit heat is from the exhaust manifolds and the poor airflow being stuck at the rear of the engine bay tunnel
The heat is trapped in the engine bay when slow moving or stopping. The bonnet vents help but opening the bonnet lets it all out. well how do the inner wing heat shields deflect the heat from reaching the cabin then? some of the starter motor heat is soaked up from the fact its bolted to the block but the culprit heat is from the exhaust manifolds and the poor airflow being stuck at the rear of the engine bay tunnel Heat rises.
As to what your point is. fieryfred said:
The engine bay is like an oven. Cladding something in tin foil is not going to protect it from the heat.
When its hot all i do is open the bonnet when we stop. By the time we have both been for a leak its a lot cooler.
No problems so far. Its a magnet, people come to look at the heat haze & ask has it broken down.
All agree its hot.
So if we left out the heat shield or tin foil as you put it from the bulkhead and inner wings would we be good to go! When its hot all i do is open the bonnet when we stop. By the time we have both been for a leak its a lot cooler.
No problems so far. Its a magnet, people come to look at the heat haze & ask has it broken down.
All agree its hot.
It clearly provides protection from the worst of the heat and that is often enough to protect vital components.
My point all along is there is a constant flow of hot air going the starters way when moving which inevitably causes more residual heat around the starter. Wrapping keeps the starter cooler for longer and in that way it rarely gets extremely warm.
All in my humble opinion of course.
You open the bonnet and go for a loo break. I suppose people think it’s broke so don’t try to thieve it away.
Every time I’ve ever tracked a car I open the bonnet directly afterwards.
Classic Chim said:
My point all along is there is a constant flow of hot air going the starters way when moving which inevitably causes more residual heat around the starter. Wrapping keeps the starter cooler for longer and in that way it rarely gets extremely warm.
When on the move the hot air around the starter won't be as hot as the starter is, starter temperature will be very close to engine block temperatureAm I missing something?
Polly Grigora said:
When on the move the hot air around the starter won't be as hot as the starter is, starter temperature will be very close to engine block temperature
Am I missing something?
Considering water temp will be around 85/90 the engine will be omitting normal levels of heat. The exhausts will be pushing out much higher levels of heat. Am I missing something?
Classic Chim said:
Polly Grigora said:
When on the move the hot air around the starter won't be as hot as the starter is, starter temperature will be very close to engine block temperature
Am I missing something?
Considering water temp will be around 85/90 the engine will be omitting normal levels of heat. The exhausts will be pushing out much higher levels of heat. Am I missing something?
The exhaust is positioned on the outside of the starter and its manifold is above the starter
Can't prove the following like but you might get my drift, my angle, the way I'm looking at it
There won't be a vast amount of heat transfered from manifold and exhaust when the car is on the move with air incoming around the engine, when the car is parked up there will be much heat in the area of the starter
Am going along with many others views posted here in the past, starter is at a higher cooking temperature once the car has been parked up
It would be great if someone probed their engine
Ok rather than going round in circles my view rightly or wrongly is simply heat wrap will surely protect the starter from excess heat thats created when on the move.
My theory is if the starters protected from this moving heat it’s operating at a lower temperature so when you pull up and stop it’s not going to get so hot as a non protected starter would in the same circumstances.
My starter cranks after fuelling up or a coffee break just as powerfully as when stone cold but it’s always been maintained including new cabling etc.
Why do people think the engine produces more heat than any other RV8 engine because it doesn’t.
In fact most other applications the exhausts run down and alongside the engine. The issue with Tvr is not excess engine heat but more a lack of space and tract to allow our Tin manifolds ( not cast) which omit huge levels of heat to dissipate down and away so the problem of hot start/ dry starters is made worse as this and other heat produced is constantly being funnelled past it’s steel body.
That’s why I think wrapping it defects some of this away.
It’s just a small part of my own personal preventative medicine.
My theory is if the starters protected from this moving heat it’s operating at a lower temperature so when you pull up and stop it’s not going to get so hot as a non protected starter would in the same circumstances.
My starter cranks after fuelling up or a coffee break just as powerfully as when stone cold but it’s always been maintained including new cabling etc.
Why do people think the engine produces more heat than any other RV8 engine because it doesn’t.
In fact most other applications the exhausts run down and alongside the engine. The issue with Tvr is not excess engine heat but more a lack of space and tract to allow our Tin manifolds ( not cast) which omit huge levels of heat to dissipate down and away so the problem of hot start/ dry starters is made worse as this and other heat produced is constantly being funnelled past it’s steel body.
That’s why I think wrapping it defects some of this away.
It’s just a small part of my own personal preventative medicine.
Edited by Classic Chim on Monday 23 October 10:10
Wrapping the manifolds is the actual answer to reducing under bonnet temps.
Looks ugly but works.
That will reduce heat other than what the starter system is designed to take namely engine heat soak which is inevitable in any application.
It’s keeping the starter marginally cooler when your moving which has to be the aim IMO.
ETA wrapping doesn’t have to look ugly given what’s going on in the Tuscan S2000 engine swap thread
Looks ugly but works.
That will reduce heat other than what the starter system is designed to take namely engine heat soak which is inevitable in any application.
It’s keeping the starter marginally cooler when your moving which has to be the aim IMO.
ETA wrapping doesn’t have to look ugly given what’s going on in the Tuscan S2000 engine swap thread
Edited by Classic Chim on Monday 23 October 11:50
Classic Chim said:
my view rightly or wrongly is simply heat wrap will surely protect the starter from excess heat thats created when on the move.
Not for meClassic Chim said:
my view rightly or wrongly is simply heat wrap will surely protect the starter from excess heat thats created.
ExactlyHow much heat is produced through the manifolds when the car is accelerating, it’s been known for them to glow red hot. RED HOT 300-600d
In view of that fact which Polly doesn’t seem to acknowledge unfortunately there is huge amounts of heat thrown back towards gearbox and of course the starter motor.
The question must surely be does heat wrapping protect components from heat and the answer is clearly yes. By deflection mostly.
The next question must be is this manifold heat less than heat transfer caused through the starters close contact with the engine which runs at about 90-100d so very normal and in line with its operating parameters. No it’s clearly much hotter.
That manifold heat adds hugely to the overall temperature in these areas so as heat shield generally deflects heat away that’s exactly what it’s doing in this instance at that time.
Once car stops so air flow reduces momentarily engine bay gets hotter at the top of the engine as the manifold heat now dissipates around engine bay and rises which is often why other components fail at this time.
By protecting my starter when at speed I believe it starts at a cooler place when its not.
Heat sink will always take place so slower speeds where both heat soak is more and air flow is reduced wrapping will have far less effect but once the air is moving but still very very hot it deflects much of it away from the starter metal body so enabling it to cool down quicker.
In truth any issues with starter motor problems won’t be corrected by heat shielding
Heat shielding can only really deflect heat away so as there is so much heat being funnelled in this area when on the move that’s all its doing.
The air being forced back when on the move doesn’t come out the top of the bonnet vents it goes down and away and in the o/s case that means around the starter motor. It’s that constant trail of heat i’m protecting against by simple deflection.
Imho I think it does a good job of doing exactly that or I wouldn’t come on here saying so.
Practical experience so far has led to zero starting problem in my 13 years of ownership and I must have been one of the few that ran my car as a daily including weekly shopping trips, picking the kids up, going to work and racking up 40,000 miles in doing so. There were great days when I must have used that starter motor 20 or 30 times a day. Dads taxi was always in action anytime any day I used it totally for about 10 years with a few months off hear and there as I rolling resto’d most of the running gear.
My car came with 36,000 miles and one previous owner, two actually but one was the dealer who sold it after 6 months probably using it as a demonstrator in that time.
My car has no hidden history and as genuine as the day it came out the factory.
In fact the starter motor has been 100% reliable and about the only part I’ve never had to touch lol.
Oh I tell a lie
New ECU by Powers so replaced all starter cabling as part of future proofing
In view of that fact which Polly doesn’t seem to acknowledge unfortunately there is huge amounts of heat thrown back towards gearbox and of course the starter motor.
The question must surely be does heat wrapping protect components from heat and the answer is clearly yes. By deflection mostly.
The next question must be is this manifold heat less than heat transfer caused through the starters close contact with the engine which runs at about 90-100d so very normal and in line with its operating parameters. No it’s clearly much hotter.
That manifold heat adds hugely to the overall temperature in these areas so as heat shield generally deflects heat away that’s exactly what it’s doing in this instance at that time.
Once car stops so air flow reduces momentarily engine bay gets hotter at the top of the engine as the manifold heat now dissipates around engine bay and rises which is often why other components fail at this time.
By protecting my starter when at speed I believe it starts at a cooler place when its not.
Heat sink will always take place so slower speeds where both heat soak is more and air flow is reduced wrapping will have far less effect but once the air is moving but still very very hot it deflects much of it away from the starter metal body so enabling it to cool down quicker.
In truth any issues with starter motor problems won’t be corrected by heat shielding
Heat shielding can only really deflect heat away so as there is so much heat being funnelled in this area when on the move that’s all its doing.
The air being forced back when on the move doesn’t come out the top of the bonnet vents it goes down and away and in the o/s case that means around the starter motor. It’s that constant trail of heat i’m protecting against by simple deflection.
Imho I think it does a good job of doing exactly that or I wouldn’t come on here saying so.
Practical experience so far has led to zero starting problem in my 13 years of ownership and I must have been one of the few that ran my car as a daily including weekly shopping trips, picking the kids up, going to work and racking up 40,000 miles in doing so. There were great days when I must have used that starter motor 20 or 30 times a day. Dads taxi was always in action anytime any day I used it totally for about 10 years with a few months off hear and there as I rolling resto’d most of the running gear.
My car came with 36,000 miles and one previous owner, two actually but one was the dealer who sold it after 6 months probably using it as a demonstrator in that time.
My car has no hidden history and as genuine as the day it came out the factory.
In fact the starter motor has been 100% reliable and about the only part I’ve never had to touch lol.
Oh I tell a lie
New ECU by Powers so replaced all starter cabling as part of future proofing
Edited by Classic Chim on Wednesday 25th October 12:00
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