What do we think to the current Chimaera market?
Discussion
Mutley00 said:
I'm in my mid-sixties Steve - is there something over the horizon I should know about 
?
I hate to be the one to tell you..... ?......
the horrible truth is I've a long standing back injury which ultimately meant if I could get in I couldn't get out, and when I was in the seating position was agony.
981Boxess said:
I think the biggest culprits for spreading the bad reliability reputation are the owners, most seem to delight in any reliability issues for some odd reason. I cannot think of another group of owners so quick to run their own cars down so much.
My 18 year TVR journey never once resulted in a car not starting or a breakdown of any kind. That said all the maintenance required was done properly rather than wait for something to go wrong before fixing it. In that time I drove all over Europe untold times and enjoyed pretty much all of it.
What amazes me is how little Chimaeras are worth today given how rare they are compared to other ‘classics’. I suppose the reputation hasn’t helped and added to that they are not cheap to maintain properly, but still seem undervalued to me.
I think you are right about the dwindling audience bit though
The Chimaera was a victim of its own success really. In 1998, TVR sold so many, it appeared in the JD Power reliability survey a few years later, something Top Gear used to make a big song and dance about every year. It didn't do well, but still finished about the Vauxhall Frontera I seem to remember. My 18 year TVR journey never once resulted in a car not starting or a breakdown of any kind. That said all the maintenance required was done properly rather than wait for something to go wrong before fixing it. In that time I drove all over Europe untold times and enjoyed pretty much all of it.
What amazes me is how little Chimaeras are worth today given how rare they are compared to other ‘classics’. I suppose the reputation hasn’t helped and added to that they are not cheap to maintain properly, but still seem undervalued to me.
I think you are right about the dwindling audience bit though
Too many people had bought them thinking they could be treated as an every day car like a Mondeo, BMW or Vectra. It's a hand-made car and needs more care than that. If Ferrari or Lamborghini had sold enough cars to be in the survey, I wonder where they'd have come.
TR4man said:
981Boxess said:
I think the biggest culprits for spreading the bad reliability reputation are the owners, most seem to delight in any reliability issues for some odd reason. I cannot think of another group of owners so quick to run their own cars down so much.
The thing that I have noticed about TVR owners is that many just can’t stop themselves from tinkering with their cars and then wondering why they are unreliable. Clearly some do have some mechanical competence but many don’t. 981Boxess said:
True - the other thing that also seemed to be true is the ones that were ‘improved’ the most were inevitably the least reliable.
Not necessarily so. I've had about 9 TVR and driven maybe 300,000 miles in them. I've had two absolute stinkers that were new from the factory. If you get a bad one they are every bit as bad as their reputation (or worse!).
Mutley00 said:
I'm in my mid-sixties Steve - is there something over the horizon I should know about ?
Not Steve but - as you get older taking your diff out to cure an irritating leak becomes less appealing and more to the point more difficult to do, maintaining one then becomes more of a chore than a pleasure. ?2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
981Boxess said:
True - the other thing that also seemed to be true is the ones that were ‘improved’ the most were inevitably the least reliable.
I've had two absolute stinkers that were new from the factory. If you get a bad one they are every bit as bad as their reputation (or worse!).981Boxess said:
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
981Boxess said:
True - the other thing that also seemed to be true is the ones that were ‘improved’ the most were inevitably the least reliable.
I've had two absolute stinkers that were new from the factory. If you get a bad one they are every bit as bad as their reputation (or worse!).Couple of factors from me;
Absolutely the wrong time of year to be trying to sell a classic convertible sports car. People have told me that seasonality isn’t really a thing in car sales any more and I simply don’t believe them.
There’s nothing like a bit of spring sunshine to get people thinking.
Economic factors. Optimism isn’t exactly sky high. I doubt it is only TVRs that aren’t flying out the doors of classic car dealers. Sports cars are a fairly optimistic purchase.
Fashion: I’m not sure people are in to ‘sports cars’ full stop as much as they used to be.
I’ve just had a look at the prices of the original Porsche Boxster.
Surely these are sought after classics with a blue chip badge?
Well, you can easily pick one up for £7k.
Demographics: We may be getting to that time when a lot of traditional TVR owners are looking to move out of anything low and jiggley
So we may be in a time of quite high supply vs the baseline of people looking for a Chimaera at any one time.
I don’t expect that situation to last forever. Even the most common of the TVRs are still objectively rare cars.
And the next potential wave of buyers (people who had TVRs on their childhood bedroom wall) are busy with careers, children, mortgages and all that real life stuff.
So, not a rosy picture for prices just now but I don’t think it’s all doom and gloom longer term.
Absolutely the wrong time of year to be trying to sell a classic convertible sports car. People have told me that seasonality isn’t really a thing in car sales any more and I simply don’t believe them.
There’s nothing like a bit of spring sunshine to get people thinking.
Economic factors. Optimism isn’t exactly sky high. I doubt it is only TVRs that aren’t flying out the doors of classic car dealers. Sports cars are a fairly optimistic purchase.
Fashion: I’m not sure people are in to ‘sports cars’ full stop as much as they used to be.
I’ve just had a look at the prices of the original Porsche Boxster.
Surely these are sought after classics with a blue chip badge?
Well, you can easily pick one up for £7k.
Demographics: We may be getting to that time when a lot of traditional TVR owners are looking to move out of anything low and jiggley
So we may be in a time of quite high supply vs the baseline of people looking for a Chimaera at any one time.
I don’t expect that situation to last forever. Even the most common of the TVRs are still objectively rare cars.
And the next potential wave of buyers (people who had TVRs on their childhood bedroom wall) are busy with careers, children, mortgages and all that real life stuff.
So, not a rosy picture for prices just now but I don’t think it’s all doom and gloom longer term.
every time I go to a classic auction the conversation of "would you believe that" moves on to "what's the next modern classic?".
MX5s and TVRs are plentiful now but will see a surge at some point once rust diminishes numbers (but don't hold your breath.)
I see the charm of old Mexicos and Capris, the first hot hatches etc, but Mazdas and TVRs were far more significant and a greater contrast to the norm. Plus, they're not hard to keep alive once the money and effort is justified.
It'll be interesting walking through Bonhams at Goodwood in 2035.
MX5s and TVRs are plentiful now but will see a surge at some point once rust diminishes numbers (but don't hold your breath.)
I see the charm of old Mexicos and Capris, the first hot hatches etc, but Mazdas and TVRs were far more significant and a greater contrast to the norm. Plus, they're not hard to keep alive once the money and effort is justified.
It'll be interesting walking through Bonhams at Goodwood in 2035.
Interest rates have gone up enough to attract investors back to the financial markets and so classic cars are rapidly becoming a bad investment in terms of return. Very expensive cars such as Aston Martin DB5's etc are dramatically falling. I saw one example in a classic car magazine where a DB5 (I think it was anyway!) had gone down from £2.3M to £1.7M in eighteen months! This has a knock-on effect on the market downwards. As cars become cheaper the market for them changes. £40k may have once been the price of a Tuscan, for example, because a Ferrari was £60k, but when the Ferrari drops to £40k the potential Tuscan buyers move on leaving only buyers with less money to buy the Tuscan and hence the prices drop, with the same knock on effect right down to the cheapest cars.
To be honest, I have owned some very nice cars over the years when they were affordable such as one of the last 6 litre XJS's, a Mercedes R129 SL600 etc but never paid more than £7000 for any of them, and they were the best of the best. Both these models went up to £30k+ but I never thought they were really worth all that money!
To be honest, I have owned some very nice cars over the years when they were affordable such as one of the last 6 litre XJS's, a Mercedes R129 SL600 etc but never paid more than £7000 for any of them, and they were the best of the best. Both these models went up to £30k+ but I never thought they were really worth all that money!
Classic cars are really toys very few owners run them as daily drivers so with the cost of living rising and finances stretched it is natural that non essentials are dropped so its not surprising that the bottom has dropped out of the market. Coupled with a lousy summer and the winter soon here not the best time for sellers to part with their pride and joy. It may pick up in the Spring? Opportunities though for buyers with cash!
Depends on your definition of summer. 
June was the warmest ever recorded, grant you July was very wet but August was average I reckon and September and even October had some exceptionally nice days to me to use my TVR.
Some sellers are a bit ambitious with their asking prices too for Chimaeras, IMHO. 500 versions are quite rare and 450s even rarer (possibly?) but close to £20k for a 400? I know there's been inflation but I paid £7k for a good but highish miles (80k) W reg Chimaera 400 on original chassis in 2013.
June was the warmest ever recorded, grant you July was very wet but August was average I reckon and September and even October had some exceptionally nice days to me to use my TVR. Some sellers are a bit ambitious with their asking prices too for Chimaeras, IMHO. 500 versions are quite rare and 450s even rarer (possibly?) but close to £20k for a 400? I know there's been inflation but I paid £7k for a good but highish miles (80k) W reg Chimaera 400 on original chassis in 2013.
keynsham said:
Very expensive cars such as Aston Martin DB5's etc are dramatically falling. I saw one example in a classic car magazine where a DB5 (I think it was anyway!) had gone down from £2.3M to £1.7M in eighteen months
Good luck to anyone who has one but how was one ever ‘worth’ that sort of money in the first place?I appreciate anything is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it but these sort of numbers on the high end stuff are ridiculous. The enjoyment of driving them seems to have been replaced by seeing their worth increase.
981Boxess said:
Good luck to anyone who has one but how was one ever ‘worth’ that sort of money in the first place?
Totally agree and they are not really worth that much. It was just the latest thing for rich people to invest in to make money. I think that ship has sailed now, and prices will start to drop substantially as it was these high-end investors that were propping the whole thing up. It happened in the early nineties just the same as I remember!!981Boxess - You are talking nonsense. Which DB5 fetched £2.3M, when and where?
Ordinary ones almost never have fetched anything like that. Good ones were under £400K 10 years ago and are under £700k now.
The only ones to bring that kind of money recently have the you-know-what connection. The one sold by Sean Connery's estate last year was £2.4M, and the one used in a recent film was £2.9M. People are overpaying because of the film connection.
And none of it has anything whatsover to do with the Chimaera market.
Ordinary ones almost never have fetched anything like that. Good ones were under £400K 10 years ago and are under £700k now.
The only ones to bring that kind of money recently have the you-know-what connection. The one sold by Sean Connery's estate last year was £2.4M, and the one used in a recent film was £2.9M. People are overpaying because of the film connection.
And none of it has anything whatsover to do with the Chimaera market.
LucyP said:
981Boxess - You are talking nonsense. Which DB5 fetched £2.3M, when and where?
Am I really, how about you read what I wrote again and see if you understand it the second time.I did not quote those figures and said that they are not worth that sort of money.
Oh …… and accepted by the way.
sixor8 said:
The Chimaera was a victim of its own success really. In 1998, TVR sold so many, it appeared in the JD Power reliability survey a few years later, something Top Gear used to make a big song and dance about every year. It didn't do well, but still finished about the Vauxhall Frontera I seem to remember.
Too many people had bought them thinking they could be treated as an every day car like a Mondeo, BMW or Vectra. It's a hand-made car and needs more care than that. If Ferrari or Lamborghini had sold enough cars to be in the survey, I wonder where they'd have come.
Are you speaking from experience? Because mines got 130k on the clock and was used every day.Too many people had bought them thinking they could be treated as an every day car like a Mondeo, BMW or Vectra. It's a hand-made car and needs more care than that. If Ferrari or Lamborghini had sold enough cars to be in the survey, I wonder where they'd have come.
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