Discussion
quote:
However, done the Ride and Drive stuff as advertised in the TVRCC Sprint magazine. Well worth it by the way.
Would you rate this course as worthwhile for someone who has been driving TVRs for 7 years (S3c & Griff 500) and grew up on rwd cars? I want to do one of these sessions but currently I am leaning towards Don Palmers "Wetter-the-better" course. Comments anyone? Rich...
, learnt how well the car does handle, though when I put it away and took the mini for a blast I realised just how much easier it is to control a FWD.
If it's any help, and I'm no expert, apparently the thing to do in a tail slide is always steer towards the centre of the road it makes you look at where the car should be, and so focuses you automatically onto correct steering - that way you don't over correct which is what EVERYONE does! I did it in my Corrado, and £5000 worth of front end damage was the result when I hit a wall. I must get on a course as well...
Edited by nubbin on Wednesday 28th November 11:16
Edited by nubbin on Wednesday 28th November 11:16
There used to be (maybe still is) a great skid control course at Thruxton.
Old cortinas and sierras on an oil and water track + a very enthusiastic instructor. Also it was very well priced. Worth doing just for the fun factor, but I did learn a lot too.
The 2 biggest points being:
- when in a skid (as mentioned before) to look where you want to go rather than where you are currently heading. Its just amazing how the car moves towards that tree you're looking at while hoping you don't hit it.
- when in a skid, anything up to 90 degrees should be recoverable and doesn't take as much of a correction as you think to recover. It was stated that 1/4 of a turn should be enough for most situations.
Its not a bad idea to do one of these courses each year - they're cheam, fun and do improve your awareness and ability.
and no I'm not on commission !
Edited by philr on Wednesday 28th November 11:46
Old cortinas and sierras on an oil and water track + a very enthusiastic instructor. Also it was very well priced. Worth doing just for the fun factor, but I did learn a lot too.
The 2 biggest points being:
- when in a skid (as mentioned before) to look where you want to go rather than where you are currently heading. Its just amazing how the car moves towards that tree you're looking at while hoping you don't hit it.
- when in a skid, anything up to 90 degrees should be recoverable and doesn't take as much of a correction as you think to recover. It was stated that 1/4 of a turn should be enough for most situations.
Its not a bad idea to do one of these courses each year - they're cheam, fun and do improve your awareness and ability.
and no I'm not on commission !
Edited by philr on Wednesday 28th November 11:46
quote:
Would you rate this course as worthwhile for someone who has been driving TVRs for 7 years (S3c & Griff 500) and grew up on rwd cars? I want to do one of these sessions but currently I am leaning towards Don Palmers "Wetter-the-better" course. Comments anyone? Rich...
The Ride and Drive course is more of driving techniques rather than handling. Reading the road, understanding the risks, how to overtake that type of thing. Sounds daft, but I learnt a lot about driving on roads. Doesnt teach you about driving a RWD car or what to do with a slide / twitch. That stuff is for the closed circuit training centres (of which there are load and there must be one local to you).
Think of the Ride and Drive as a - how to crack on driving on the road within the bounds of the law and safety. Bit of an eye opener really. Would recommend it for a newbie, but if you have been driving for years, might be a bit overkill....
www.ridedrive.co.uk/index2.html
Cheers,
Paul
quote:Thats why so many people have shunts while fiddling with stereos - its not so much the lack of attention to the road (tho that is obviously a contributory factor) as the fact that the hands automatically follow the eyes.
look where you want to go rather than where you are currently heading
quote:
- when in a skid, anything up to 90 degrees should be recoverable and doesn't take as much of a correction as you think to recover. It was stated that 1/4 of a turn should be enough for most situations.
The heck it is! It's largely a matter of momentum rather than the actual angle. This time of year the grip drops off very sharply once the tyre starts to slip. Even doing everything right you have very little control authority and you need large amounts of opposite lock applied quickly, plus declutch or balance the throttle. Slightly too slow feeding in the opposite lock or coming off the power so the car builds up a little momentum and it very quickly becomes uncatchable. If you do enough to catch it, since you've taken the power off and fed in all that opposite lock when it swings back it'll come back a *lot* faster and if you barely caught the first one you certainly ain't going to catch the rebound. Not something you want to be learning on public roads, I agree skid pans are ideal for this sort of thing.
Cheers,
Peter Humphries (and a green V8S)
philshort -- yes, I've got PAS. No doubt in the extreme this helps you get full opposite lock on fast, but fortunately I've never been in that position in the TVR (yet?).
I suppose the bottom line is that if you know its coming you can do the right things and laugh, not scream. When you loose it without expecting it, it's a completely different thing. Got away with it once when an oncoming car and I both fishtailed passed each other on sheet ice on a narrow flooded lane (thanks go to Kent County Council for so many unexpected skid pans), the other time was a bit of a disaster. Front broke away on a patch of black ice, gripped and threw the back out irrecoverably (by me anyway). Result: one dead GT4 Celica.
I suppose the bottom line is that if you know its coming you can do the right things and laugh, not scream. When you loose it without expecting it, it's a completely different thing. Got away with it once when an oncoming car and I both fishtailed passed each other on sheet ice on a narrow flooded lane (thanks go to Kent County Council for so many unexpected skid pans), the other time was a bit of a disaster. Front broke away on a patch of black ice, gripped and threw the back out irrecoverably (by me anyway). Result: one dead GT4 Celica.
I was curious about PAS as I *have* been caught out in the way Marshy fears, and was lucky not to have sustained serious damage to the car and myself, and I was wondering if the quicker steering of the PAS would have helped. Probably not, the car broke away very quickly indeed (and snapped back even quicker) but I'd welcome others views.
And yes, it is a different matter when you know its coming. I "practice" rear wheel drifts whenever there is room to do so (my Senator 24v was good for this also despite being auto), but when the back end goes with no provocation it is a whole new ball game!
And yes, it is a different matter when you know its coming. I "practice" rear wheel drifts whenever there is room to do so (my Senator 24v was good for this also despite being auto), but when the back end goes with no provocation it is a whole new ball game!
I did a RideDrive 'course' last week. They are more about observance and road positioning to avoid scary moments.
A good day out, but didn't think it was worth the money as there was insufficient active instruction; felt like a fast run out with a likeminded petrolhead, not a great learning experience.
Write your cheques with care.
A good day out, but didn't think it was worth the money as there was insufficient active instruction; felt like a fast run out with a likeminded petrolhead, not a great learning experience.
Write your cheques with care.
Rich,
done a wetter course with Don at Mira, great fun. Went after having the car for a few months but I was crap. Dunno if it was my car or what, but the only guy who could constantly power slide my car round the rings was Simon 'got the power sliding record' (forget his surname) as seen on Top Gear. The instructors both kept loosing it after about 3/4 of a circle. However it was a good course, and great to experience understear, never felt it before in the Griff.
I didnt like the wet circuit, barriers just a little too close for my liking.
Ive heard the TVR organised courses (not the car club ones) are great. Someone once posted that they ended up going round the track faster in the wet than the'rd ever been in the dry on their own!
Martyn
done a wetter course with Don at Mira, great fun. Went after having the car for a few months but I was crap. Dunno if it was my car or what, but the only guy who could constantly power slide my car round the rings was Simon 'got the power sliding record' (forget his surname) as seen on Top Gear. The instructors both kept loosing it after about 3/4 of a circle. However it was a good course, and great to experience understear, never felt it before in the Griff.
I didnt like the wet circuit, barriers just a little too close for my liking.
Ive heard the TVR organised courses (not the car club ones) are great. Someone once posted that they ended up going round the track faster in the wet than the'rd ever been in the dry on their own!
Martyn
quote:
The heck it is! It's largely a matter of momentum rather than the actual angle. This time of year the grip drops off very sharply once the tyre starts to slip. Even doing everything right you have very little control authority and you need large amounts of opposite lock applied quickly, plus declutch or balance the throttle. Slightly too slow feeding in the opposite lock or coming off the power so the car builds up a little momentum and it very quickly becomes uncatchable. If you do enough to catch it, since you've taken the power off and fed in all that opposite lock when it swings back it'll come back a *lot* faster and if you barely caught the first one you certainly ain't going to catch the rebound. Not something you want to be learning on public roads, I agree skid pans are ideal for this sort of thing.
Cheers,
Peter Humphries (and a green V8S)
Peter, I obviously bow to your far greater knowledge in this area. I was merely reporting what I was told and indeed found to be pretty correct on the couse I did a few years ago.
Maybe the difference comes when the car has the sort of power that a TVR has compared to the Sierras and cortinas on the course which probably reached a max of 30 MPH.
Still the course was great fun to do and I felt (well I did until now !) that I'd learnt a lot.
Can you suggest a more appropriate course for leaning to handle a TVR in such situations and what are bound to be greater speeds that the Thruxton course permits ?
Phil
Years ago when people started stuffing Escort Cossies on a regular basis Ford offered a discounted driving course to owners. I believe a number of other car companies have done this with their more hair raising cars, Porsche and Volvo for example.
From reading this thread it seems like a lost revenue oppurtunity for Peter Wheeler.
I've done many skid pan days and various driver training courses before as part of a previous job but I would be well willing to part with the cash to do a day that has been specifically organised and targeted for TVR drivers.
Matt.
Edited by plotloss on Thursday 29th November 14:33
From reading this thread it seems like a lost revenue oppurtunity for Peter Wheeler.
I've done many skid pan days and various driver training courses before as part of a previous job but I would be well willing to part with the cash to do a day that has been specifically organised and targeted for TVR drivers.
Matt.
Edited by plotloss on Thursday 29th November 14:33
quote:
Years ago when people started stuffing Escort Cossies on a regular basis Ford offered a discounted driving course to owners. I believe a number of other car companies have done this with their more hair raising cars, Porsche and Volvo for example.
From reading this thread it seems like a lost revenue oppurtunity for Peter Wheeler.
I've done many skid pan days and various driver training courses before as part of a previous job but I would be well willing to part with the cash to do a day that has been specifically organised and targeted for TVR drivers.
Matt.
Edited by plotloss on Thursday 29th November 14:33
TVR ran some superb but very expensive 'performance technique' days for several years, but stopped them a couple of years ago. I was told it was because they were running at a huge loss. Sounds quite likely to me, they provided dozens of instructors and it must have cost them a fortune.
Cheers,
Peter Humphries (and a green V8S)
I can whole-heartedly recommend Don Palmer's Creative Car Control course that I went on a couple of weekends ago. I have owned a Chim 450 for over 2 years and like others here have had a couple of heart-stopping moments. I've always felt a little nervous not knowing how the car and I would cope with a 'big moment.'
Don's course is a full day (10am-4pm, I was there with 2 other punters) at Bruntingthorpe Proving Ground with plenty of run off and acres of tarmac. Don's approach is to 'coach' you in controlling your car based on some simple theory and plenty of pratical hands on experience. He encourages you to learn from your own experiences and develop your car control as a result. I had great fun perfecting the techniques and had never dreamed of being able to control the kind of power-induced slides I was provoking. I now feel more confident and prepared should I find myself having to contend with a slide on a public road.
Don himself is a great bloke and a little mad in the head but he certainly knows his stuff and his car control is amazing. He had my Chim doing all kinds of things I wouldn't have dared thought possible! We also enojoyed an 'interesting' ride 5 up in Don's BMW M5 power-sliding around Bruntingthorpe's airfield circuit - for demonstration purposes of course!
Visit www.drivingdevelopment.co.uk for more details.
Don's course is a full day (10am-4pm, I was there with 2 other punters) at Bruntingthorpe Proving Ground with plenty of run off and acres of tarmac. Don's approach is to 'coach' you in controlling your car based on some simple theory and plenty of pratical hands on experience. He encourages you to learn from your own experiences and develop your car control as a result. I had great fun perfecting the techniques and had never dreamed of being able to control the kind of power-induced slides I was provoking. I now feel more confident and prepared should I find myself having to contend with a slide on a public road.
Don himself is a great bloke and a little mad in the head but he certainly knows his stuff and his car control is amazing. He had my Chim doing all kinds of things I wouldn't have dared thought possible! We also enojoyed an 'interesting' ride 5 up in Don's BMW M5 power-sliding around Bruntingthorpe's airfield circuit - for demonstration purposes of course!
Visit www.drivingdevelopment.co.uk for more details.
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