RE: Jaguar goes Indian?
Discussion
Horse_Apple said:
8<---------------------------------------------
I wonder how much of this is down to the unions in the States preventing Ford from doing this?
but a lot of Ford's problems are down to existing financial commitments. They have a huge past & present work force with health care etc... demands that the company needs to keep covering.
sprinter885 said:
So Aditya- can you educate us please on what the quality of car building IS really like in India ? -and how is that quality perceived by the population at large?
I suspect that this is less relevant to the thread now as it seems unlikely that TATA will be a buyer anyway but nice to have an authoritative answer.
I would really not have touched that area, but, since you want to know, here goes. I suspect that this is less relevant to the thread now as it seems unlikely that TATA will be a buyer anyway but nice to have an authoritative answer.
Tata make cheap cars for the lower middle class people. They are cheap to run and cost of spares is low. They have a long way to go before they come up to standards that people in Europe are used to. But, we also have all the Japanese manufacturers in India. They are giving us the same cars that are sold in Europe. To stay competitive, Tata is making efforts to improve the quality of their cars. New Turbodiesel and Common Rail Diesel Engines have been introduced. Tata and Mahindra have European consultants in their R&D team. I believe Mahindra has hired ex-Lotus employees to help them out with their vehicles' handling. Hindustan Motors still sells the Ambassador, but, their bread and butter products are the Mitsubishi Lancer and Pajero (Shogun / Montero). Even then, anyone buying a Tata should go for the extended warranty and dispose the vehicle off as soon as the warranty expires.
When it comes to European and American players in India, Opel gave us an outdated Astra and Corsa. Ford gave us a rubbish Escort with a 1.8L 58bhp diesel engine - absolute rubbish. Luckily they learnt their lessons quickly and now they have a better range of cars. Still, they had promised to introduce Jaguar sometime in 2005. Last year they said early 2007. Now it's mid 2007 and still no sign of Jaguar. Merc started off with the wonderful W124. Now they are offering us their entire current range of cars including Maybach. BMW, Audi, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Land Rover, Porsche, Ferrari and Lamborghini are offering every car from their current range. Skoda sells the previous generation Octavia alongside the current model. General Motors has dumped the Opel marque and now sell us Daewoo cars rebadged as Chevrolet. Fiat sells the Palio, built on their "world car" platform. Fiats are again marketed by Tata. Renault give us a Dacia Logan which is not really a quality product.
To conclude, Indian manufacturers have a long way to go, but, will eventually get there.
Forgetting the non-PC ramblings of a few, these posts about Jaguar raise the question 'if we could see what Ford were doing wrong, why couldn't they?' Often over a pint or six, me and my mates have discussed why on earth Jaguar didn't up-date the S-Type styling earlier, why did they launch the X-Type at all, why didn't they spend more time and money on the beautiful new XK. Clearly Ford purchased Volvo and Jaguar to prop-up their US sales (in some states the Ford brand has been completely rejected and they need Mercury, Volvo, etc. to acheive any sales). Ford did a great job of getting trust back in Jaguar reliabilty but then offered the wrong specifications / models. They managed the branding of Aston DB7/DB9 with the Jag XKR offering tiers of what were basically the same car. I always thought there may be an opportunity to do the same with the Volvo S80 with a higher tier Jaguar rather than share the Mondeo platform for the X-Type. I'm not really talking engineering here, more perception. Everyone knew that the X-Type was based on a Mondeo which devalued the Jag. If they had launched a new Jag (slightly smaller than the XJ) and then claimed that the new Volvo S80 was based on a Jaguar platform the image of both cars would have been higher.
monty quick said:
Forgetting the non-PC ramblings of a few, these posts about Jaguar raise the question 'if we could see what Ford were doing wrong, why couldn't they?' Often over a pint or six, me and my mates have discussed why on earth Jaguar didn't up-date the S-Type styling earlier, why did they launch the X-Type at all, why didn't they spend more time and money on the beautiful new XK. Clearly Ford purchased Volvo and Jaguar to prop-up their US sales (in some states the Ford brand has been completely rejected and they need Mercury, Volvo, etc. to acheive any sales). Ford did a great job of getting trust back in Jaguar reliabilty but then offered the wrong specifications / models. They managed the branding of Aston DB7/DB9 with the Jag XKR offering tiers of what were basically the same car. I always thought there may be an opportunity to do the same with the Volvo S80 with a higher tier Jaguar rather than share the Mondeo platform for the X-Type. I'm not really talking engineering here, more perception. Everyone knew that the X-Type was based on a Mondeo which devalued the Jag. If they had launched a new Jag (slightly smaller than the XJ) and then claimed that the new Volvo S80 was based on a Jaguar platform the image of both cars would have been higher.
It is odd. On the one hand they pretty much, single handedly saved the best of the top end British marques, and then on the other completely misread the market.Hot from the press:
Tata Motors Wins Bid for Ford's Jaguar, Land Rover, CNBC Says
July 26 (Bloomberg) -- Tata Motors Ltd., India's biggest
maker of trucks and buses, won a bid to purchase Ford Motor
Co.'s Jaguar and Land Rover brands, television channel CNBC TV-
18 reported today, citing unidentified sources.
Tata Motors Managing Director Ravi Kant declined to comment
when contacted on the telephone.
Tata Motors Wins Bid for Ford's Jaguar, Land Rover, CNBC Says
July 26 (Bloomberg) -- Tata Motors Ltd., India's biggest
maker of trucks and buses, won a bid to purchase Ford Motor
Co.'s Jaguar and Land Rover brands, television channel CNBC TV-
18 reported today, citing unidentified sources.
Tata Motors Managing Director Ravi Kant declined to comment
when contacted on the telephone.
India Tata Motors Buys Jaguar,Land Rover -TV
July 26, 2007: 05:27 AM EST
NEW DELHI -(Dow Jones)- India's Tata Motors Ltd. (500570.BY) has acquired Jaguar and Land Rover, Indian news channel CNBC-TV18 reported Thursday, citing unnamed sources.
A Tata Motors executive however declined comment when contacted by Dow Jones Newswires.
"Tata Motors does not have any comments to make. Tata Motors does not comment on mergers and acquisitions," said Debasis Ray, head of corporate communications.
Ford Motor Co. (F), which owns the two brands, also said the report was inaccurate and that it was still evaluating options.
Tata Motors, which makes buses, trucks and passenger cars, is India's largest commercial vehicle maker by sales.
Last month, Ford hired advisors to help sell Jaguar and Land Rover, both part of its Premier Automotive Group (PAG), in a move expected to reap as much as $8 billion, according to some estimates.
-By New Delhi Bureau, Dow Jones Newswires; 91-11-2307-4020 ; chandrasekhar.jayachandran@dowjones.com
-Edited by Alpana Sarma
(END) Dow Jones Newswires
07-26-07 0527ET
Copyright (c) 2007 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.
July 26, 2007: 05:27 AM EST
NEW DELHI -(Dow Jones)- India's Tata Motors Ltd. (500570.BY) has acquired Jaguar and Land Rover, Indian news channel CNBC-TV18 reported Thursday, citing unnamed sources.
A Tata Motors executive however declined comment when contacted by Dow Jones Newswires.
"Tata Motors does not have any comments to make. Tata Motors does not comment on mergers and acquisitions," said Debasis Ray, head of corporate communications.
Ford Motor Co. (F), which owns the two brands, also said the report was inaccurate and that it was still evaluating options.
Tata Motors, which makes buses, trucks and passenger cars, is India's largest commercial vehicle maker by sales.
Last month, Ford hired advisors to help sell Jaguar and Land Rover, both part of its Premier Automotive Group (PAG), in a move expected to reap as much as $8 billion, according to some estimates.
-By New Delhi Bureau, Dow Jones Newswires; 91-11-2307-4020 ; chandrasekhar.jayachandran@dowjones.com
-Edited by Alpana Sarma
(END) Dow Jones Newswires
07-26-07 0527ET
Copyright (c) 2007 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.
I've been thinking about this a bit. Will the air con pump out a curry smell so we feel at home? Will we have the choice of Chicken Tikka Massalah, Balti and Rogan Josh? Will the radio be tuned in permanently to Ravi Shankar? Will the GPS know how to avoid the damned scooters? I reckon a Jaguar 4x4 will be soon on the cards to cope with the road surfaces, plus a Jaguar pickup truck. Will we be returning to drum brakes? Will the GPS speak in an understandable language? Will each car come complete with a sacred cow? Will we be having the new Lucknow and Calcutta models, in Gunga Din and Untouchables trim levels? Will the suspension be so soft it will make us sikh? All these questions remain to be answered..................
With apologies to the PC Commission............. No offence intended, just a bit of fun.
With apologies to the PC Commission............. No offence intended, just a bit of fun.
Horse_Apple said:
India Tata Motors Buys Jaguar,Land Rover -TV
July 26, 2007: 05:27 AM EST
NEW DELHI -(Dow Jones)- India's Tata Motors Ltd. (500570.BY) has acquired Jaguar and Land Rover, Indian news channel CNBC-TV18 reported Thursday, citing unnamed sources.
Good to see that the Indian media are jumping the gun there! IIRC the first round of bids were merely preliminary ones to judge possible interest in the brands. Still a long way to go yet before both Ford and interested parties have completed all the necessary research/legal work required before submitting a final offer.July 26, 2007: 05:27 AM EST
NEW DELHI -(Dow Jones)- India's Tata Motors Ltd. (500570.BY) has acquired Jaguar and Land Rover, Indian news channel CNBC-TV18 reported Thursday, citing unnamed sources.
Some very speculative predictions:
I think that if TATA might actually be good for Jaguar and Land Rover if TATA leaves them to run themselves and allow them to sink or swim. Both Jaguar and Land Rover were both at their best when they ran themselves. If you look at the car merger that weren't successful: BMW-Rover, Daimler-Chrysler, Ford-Jaguar-Land Rover, the major problems were caused by overlapping and competing product ranges and I believe competition and corporate dirty tricks to oust the internal competition. I think this is the reason for the sell offs of all the above - when the going gets hard, the knives come out, and the backstabbing begins. Of course the acquired company - (Rover/Chrysler/Jaguar-Land Rover) will be the victim in these circumstances.
The good thing about TATA is that there is absolutely no overlap in products. Sure TATA makes 4WD pickups, but they are workhorse type pickup aimed at builders, not the lifestyle 4WDs that Land Rover makes, which are more likely to be used for driving to the local Tesco, or for the school run, or posing in somebody's front yard, than actually doing any off roading.
Rajan Tata has been very canny about his acquisitions of the Daewoo trucks. Again he picked a company that has little overlap - Daewoo trucks have powerful engines for high speed motorway transport, while TATA's trucks have high capacity, greater robustness, and smaller engines with higher efficiency more suited to poorer quality and slower Indian and developing country roads. TATA hired back Daewoo's truck division's staff who had been all made redundant and gradually expanded the company's output, tripled it's profits and it now holds 27% of the South Korean commercial vehicle market.
The TATA takeover of Corus was carried out for strategic reasons. India is experiencing an acute steel shortage due to rapid growth of it's manufacturing base. TATA needed to secure steel supplies for that increasing manufacturing base. The takeover of Corus is a big plus for Corus and it's workers, because it secures a reliable customer for Corus's steel, and it is being bought not to asset strip, but for it's output. It is interesting that although TATA itself is a big world class steel producer, it has pretty well allowed Corus to run itself. That seems to be Rajan Tata's style of management.
As for Jaguar, there is no overlap, and the market for large cars in India is small as a proportion of total production, so I think TATA will keep all Jaguar production in UK and never move it to India. I think TATA will use Jaguar and Land Rover dealer franchises for marketing TATA vehicles like the TATA pickups, and maybe even the much maligned Indica in Europe. There are other recent deals to sell TATA commercial vehicles in Europe - in Italy Fiat will be producing/selling Fiat badged TATA pickups built under license. http://geo.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?n...
http://www.abcmoney.co.uk/news/14200723381.htm and in return TATA has licensed Fiat engines for the pickups which are suited for motorway driving (which the older TATA pickups struggled with). The problem with MG-Rover's marketing of the Indica was that it didn't really fit the marketing. The Indica is cheap and cheerful, with the emphasis on cheap, but MG-Rover overpriced it, and as a result, according to TATA it didn't turn out so cheerful. A better engine would have helped it as well. http://www.newcarnet.co.uk/Rover_news.html?id=5360... I don't think TATA will fund expansion in Jaguar production though - that is the mistake Ford made. Far better for Jaguar go back it's luxury niche market, where it was successful. The US market is tough because of the value of Stirling, and there is rapidly expanding an luxury market in India, so I would think that Jaguar cars will be aggressively marketed in India, which will help Jaguar sales. The proportion of luxury cars in India is small, but the size on the market is large and will continue to grow, so it will be significant for a niche producer like Jaguar. It remains to be seen if in the immediate term, they can offset drop in sales in the US, particularly with the loss of the Ford franchise there. If TATA collaborates new models which are not in the luxury end, it is likely they will be designed by Jaguar and built under the TATA badge in India.
Land Rover is more interesting. There is some apparent overlap between the Land Rover and TATA 4WDs. However the vehicles are again suited to completely different markets. Land Rover vehicles are true Sports Utility Vehicles, whereas TATAs are cheap, tough, reliable commercial/agricultural vehicles, not SUVs. TATAs pickups have had very contrasting reviews in UK, based on who reviews it. It is very cheap, tough and reliable, have as off road capability as anything else on the market, but it is underpowered for motorway driving and struggles to reach 75mph. It is definitely intended for use by builders and farm hands for transporting building or farm materials and off road use, and definitely not for hairdressers driving a hairdressing convention. http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-drivi...
While in India a lot of driving is off road and a lot of the roads are also off road in the context of European roads, in Europe even builders are likely to spend some time on the motorway, so the TATA pickup needs a more powerful engine, which it is now getting thanks to Fiat. Again I think the Land Rover and TATA ranges complement rather than compete with each other, and I can see TATA pickups being sold in Land Rover dealerships alongside Land Rovers.
I think that if TATA might actually be good for Jaguar and Land Rover if TATA leaves them to run themselves and allow them to sink or swim. Both Jaguar and Land Rover were both at their best when they ran themselves. If you look at the car merger that weren't successful: BMW-Rover, Daimler-Chrysler, Ford-Jaguar-Land Rover, the major problems were caused by overlapping and competing product ranges and I believe competition and corporate dirty tricks to oust the internal competition. I think this is the reason for the sell offs of all the above - when the going gets hard, the knives come out, and the backstabbing begins. Of course the acquired company - (Rover/Chrysler/Jaguar-Land Rover) will be the victim in these circumstances.
The good thing about TATA is that there is absolutely no overlap in products. Sure TATA makes 4WD pickups, but they are workhorse type pickup aimed at builders, not the lifestyle 4WDs that Land Rover makes, which are more likely to be used for driving to the local Tesco, or for the school run, or posing in somebody's front yard, than actually doing any off roading.
Rajan Tata has been very canny about his acquisitions of the Daewoo trucks. Again he picked a company that has little overlap - Daewoo trucks have powerful engines for high speed motorway transport, while TATA's trucks have high capacity, greater robustness, and smaller engines with higher efficiency more suited to poorer quality and slower Indian and developing country roads. TATA hired back Daewoo's truck division's staff who had been all made redundant and gradually expanded the company's output, tripled it's profits and it now holds 27% of the South Korean commercial vehicle market.
The TATA takeover of Corus was carried out for strategic reasons. India is experiencing an acute steel shortage due to rapid growth of it's manufacturing base. TATA needed to secure steel supplies for that increasing manufacturing base. The takeover of Corus is a big plus for Corus and it's workers, because it secures a reliable customer for Corus's steel, and it is being bought not to asset strip, but for it's output. It is interesting that although TATA itself is a big world class steel producer, it has pretty well allowed Corus to run itself. That seems to be Rajan Tata's style of management.
As for Jaguar, there is no overlap, and the market for large cars in India is small as a proportion of total production, so I think TATA will keep all Jaguar production in UK and never move it to India. I think TATA will use Jaguar and Land Rover dealer franchises for marketing TATA vehicles like the TATA pickups, and maybe even the much maligned Indica in Europe. There are other recent deals to sell TATA commercial vehicles in Europe - in Italy Fiat will be producing/selling Fiat badged TATA pickups built under license. http://geo.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?n...
http://www.abcmoney.co.uk/news/14200723381.htm and in return TATA has licensed Fiat engines for the pickups which are suited for motorway driving (which the older TATA pickups struggled with). The problem with MG-Rover's marketing of the Indica was that it didn't really fit the marketing. The Indica is cheap and cheerful, with the emphasis on cheap, but MG-Rover overpriced it, and as a result, according to TATA it didn't turn out so cheerful. A better engine would have helped it as well. http://www.newcarnet.co.uk/Rover_news.html?id=5360... I don't think TATA will fund expansion in Jaguar production though - that is the mistake Ford made. Far better for Jaguar go back it's luxury niche market, where it was successful. The US market is tough because of the value of Stirling, and there is rapidly expanding an luxury market in India, so I would think that Jaguar cars will be aggressively marketed in India, which will help Jaguar sales. The proportion of luxury cars in India is small, but the size on the market is large and will continue to grow, so it will be significant for a niche producer like Jaguar. It remains to be seen if in the immediate term, they can offset drop in sales in the US, particularly with the loss of the Ford franchise there. If TATA collaborates new models which are not in the luxury end, it is likely they will be designed by Jaguar and built under the TATA badge in India.
Land Rover is more interesting. There is some apparent overlap between the Land Rover and TATA 4WDs. However the vehicles are again suited to completely different markets. Land Rover vehicles are true Sports Utility Vehicles, whereas TATAs are cheap, tough, reliable commercial/agricultural vehicles, not SUVs. TATAs pickups have had very contrasting reviews in UK, based on who reviews it. It is very cheap, tough and reliable, have as off road capability as anything else on the market, but it is underpowered for motorway driving and struggles to reach 75mph. It is definitely intended for use by builders and farm hands for transporting building or farm materials and off road use, and definitely not for hairdressers driving a hairdressing convention. http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-drivi...
While in India a lot of driving is off road and a lot of the roads are also off road in the context of European roads, in Europe even builders are likely to spend some time on the motorway, so the TATA pickup needs a more powerful engine, which it is now getting thanks to Fiat. Again I think the Land Rover and TATA ranges complement rather than compete with each other, and I can see TATA pickups being sold in Land Rover dealerships alongside Land Rovers.
And you wonder why the BNP is gaining momentum.
Being English and owning part of England is every Indians dream.
Once Jaguar goes what next for our culture and heritage.
Selling off the crown jewels?
Successive governments have slaughtered our engineering both automotive and ship building.
We need a revolution....
This will restore the Great in Britain. And save our culture
Perhaps being english will once again be acceptable to the pc nurds ruining our country
Being English and owning part of England is every Indians dream.
Once Jaguar goes what next for our culture and heritage.
Selling off the crown jewels?
Successive governments have slaughtered our engineering both automotive and ship building.
We need a revolution....
This will restore the Great in Britain. And save our culture
Perhaps being english will once again be acceptable to the pc nurds ruining our country
Fred7777 said:
And you wonder why the BNP is gaining momentum.
Being English and owning part of England is every Indians dream.
Once Jaguar goes what next for our culture and heritage.
Selling off the crown jewels?
Successive governments have slaughtered our engineering both automotive and ship building.
We need a revolution....
This will restore the Great in Britain. And save our culture
Perhaps being english will once again be acceptable to the pc nurds ruining our country
Jaguar fell into foreign hands over 2 decades ago you daft plum.Being English and owning part of England is every Indians dream.
Once Jaguar goes what next for our culture and heritage.
Selling off the crown jewels?
Successive governments have slaughtered our engineering both automotive and ship building.
We need a revolution....
This will restore the Great in Britain. And save our culture
Perhaps being english will once again be acceptable to the pc nurds ruining our country
Rather than needing a revolution, I think we just need a proper education system so we don't keep turning out thickos like you.
Successive Governments have brought in procedures and practices that protect the common man and we are all the better for it as a nation. Minimum wage, work place safety, welfare state. All excellent principles that show an advance in Civilisation.
The negative aspect of these improvements is that we are no longer a country that can be involved in 'penny in the pound' businesses.
The fundamental problem is that a large number of people in this country are too thick, ignorant or lazy to evolve with the country as a whole. Sadly, the welfare state keeps them alive and prevents natural selection from improving the gene pool. The net result is that we need immigration to bring in the smarter, more educated and industrious labour that we need.
Horse_Apple said:
Fred7777 said:
And you wonder why the BNP is gaining momentum.
Being English and owning part of England is every Indians dream.
Once Jaguar goes what next for our culture and heritage.
Selling off the crown jewels?
Successive governments have slaughtered our engineering both automotive and ship building.
We need a revolution....
This will restore the Great in Britain. And save our culture
Perhaps being english will once again be acceptable to the pc nurds ruining our country
Jaguar fell into foreign hands over 2 decades ago you daft plum.Being English and owning part of England is every Indians dream.
Once Jaguar goes what next for our culture and heritage.
Selling off the crown jewels?
Successive governments have slaughtered our engineering both automotive and ship building.
We need a revolution....
This will restore the Great in Britain. And save our culture
Perhaps being english will once again be acceptable to the pc nurds ruining our country
Rather than needing a revolution, I think we just need a proper education system so we don't keep turning out thickos like you.
Oh and we dont need immigration. If we did what we needed to to keep our UK raised Dr's, Nurses etc actually in the country. If you pay peanuts you get monkeys.
Edited by Munter on Wednesday 1st August 12:58
Munter said:
Horse_Apple said:
Fred7777 said:
And you wonder why the BNP is gaining momentum.
Being English and owning part of England is every Indians dream.
Once Jaguar goes what next for our culture and heritage.
Selling off the crown jewels?
Successive governments have slaughtered our engineering both automotive and ship building.
We need a revolution....
This will restore the Great in Britain. And save our culture
Perhaps being english will once again be acceptable to the pc nurds ruining our country
Jaguar fell into foreign hands over 2 decades ago you daft plum.Being English and owning part of England is every Indians dream.
Once Jaguar goes what next for our culture and heritage.
Selling off the crown jewels?
Successive governments have slaughtered our engineering both automotive and ship building.
We need a revolution....
This will restore the Great in Britain. And save our culture
Perhaps being english will once again be acceptable to the pc nurds ruining our country
Rather than needing a revolution, I think we just need a proper education system so we don't keep turning out thickos like you.
Oh and we dont need immigration. If we did what we needed to to keep our UK raised Dr's, Nurses etc actually in the country. If you pay peanuts you get monkeys.
Edited by Munter on Wednesday 1st August 12:58
And I beg to differ, we clearly do need immigration. Someone has to do the work while the locals are either on or watching Trisha.
Horse_Apple said:
Munter said:
Horse_Apple said:
Fred7777 said:
And you wonder why the BNP is gaining momentum.
Being English and owning part of England is every Indians dream.
Once Jaguar goes what next for our culture and heritage.
Selling off the crown jewels?
Successive governments have slaughtered our engineering both automotive and ship building.
We need a revolution....
This will restore the Great in Britain. And save our culture
Perhaps being english will once again be acceptable to the pc nurds ruining our country
Jaguar fell into foreign hands over 2 decades ago you daft plum.Being English and owning part of England is every Indians dream.
Once Jaguar goes what next for our culture and heritage.
Selling off the crown jewels?
Successive governments have slaughtered our engineering both automotive and ship building.
We need a revolution....
This will restore the Great in Britain. And save our culture
Perhaps being english will once again be acceptable to the pc nurds ruining our country
Rather than needing a revolution, I think we just need a proper education system so we don't keep turning out thickos like you.
Oh and we dont need immigration. If we did what we needed to to keep our UK raised Dr's, Nurses etc actually in the country. If you pay peanuts you get monkeys.
Edited by Munter on Wednesday 1st August 12:58
And I beg to differ, we clearly do need immigration. Someone has to do the work while the locals are either on or watching Trisha.
You strike me very much as someone to whom being patriotic is a bad thing? Do you not want to be proud of the country you come from or live in? Would you sooner see it sold off piece by piece to other nations, and populated by people who turned up because of what the country was, but in doing so changed the culture so far that it's no longer the same place? Because I'd say thats what Fred doesn't want.
Munter said:
Horse_Apple said:
Munter said:
Horse_Apple said:
Fred7777 said:
And you wonder why the BNP is gaining momentum.
Being English and owning part of England is every Indians dream.
Once Jaguar goes what next for our culture and heritage.
Selling off the crown jewels?
Successive governments have slaughtered our engineering both automotive and ship building.
We need a revolution....
This will restore the Great in Britain. And save our culture
Perhaps being english will once again be acceptable to the pc nurds ruining our country
Jaguar fell into foreign hands over 2 decades ago you daft plum.Being English and owning part of England is every Indians dream.
Once Jaguar goes what next for our culture and heritage.
Selling off the crown jewels?
Successive governments have slaughtered our engineering both automotive and ship building.
We need a revolution....
This will restore the Great in Britain. And save our culture
Perhaps being english will once again be acceptable to the pc nurds ruining our country
Rather than needing a revolution, I think we just need a proper education system so we don't keep turning out thickos like you.
Oh and we dont need immigration. If we did what we needed to to keep our UK raised Dr's, Nurses etc actually in the country. If you pay peanuts you get monkeys.
Edited by Munter on Wednesday 1st August 12:58
And I beg to differ, we clearly do need immigration. Someone has to do the work while the locals are either on or watching Trisha.
You strike me very much as someone to whom being patriotic is a bad thing? Do you not want to be proud of the country you come from or live in? Would you sooner see it sold off piece by piece to other nations, and populated by people who turned up because of what the country was, but in doing so changed the culture so far that it's no longer the same place? Because I'd say thats what Fred doesn't want.
I'm more patriotic than most but I look at these things from a different angle. Manufacturing, other than extremely specialist manufacturing, (including high tech or products where transportation costs play an essential role), is best done in low wage environments.
This is why much of our old fashioned manufacturing has gone to the Far East and the Indian sub continent.
We have evolved beyond this end of the market to concentrate on specialist fields and high end services.
The problem at the moment is that our basic work force is lagging behind this move and there are too many workers who are now unqualified to work in these new sectors, hence the need for immigration.
An added and extremely significant problem is also that an entire generation of our community is learning to expect far more than their parents while doing less graft. The Bling Generation. Expectations have raced ahead of reality and must be re-based at some point. No one forced Indians to run cornershops, we just stopped being prepared to work as hard as them for as little money.
We lead the world in banking and finance, our extremely stable economy and governance attracts huge sums of overseas money. Our specialist industries are exceptional and there are very few global companies that do not have their high end staff pools populated with Brits.
One of our greatest exports is middle and senior management.
Our country has moved ahead in the last 20 years far more than any of our European counterparts, we have adopted global expansion far quicker and better than even the Americans, who incidentally base many of their gloabl HQ's here and staff them with Brits.
On top of this, with immigration comes trade, from the most basic level of the local Indian market in Wembley importing cloth from India to the Mittal brothers bringing huge finance deals to London.
Top end immigrants spend far more in this country per annum than the poorer majority remit back to their home countries, making it a net positive situation while gaining from good labour activity and overseas trade potential.
With the exception of our involvement in Iraq, we are quite simply the greatest country in the world at this moment in time, due to our innovation, expertise, global outlook and immigration. Not bad for a small island stuck out on the end of a continant of strong competition.
In order to remain strong, we need to continue to cut out the dead wood. This includes not only industries that can be run more competitively in other sectors of the globe but also the people who hold us back.
If they want to keep on banging hammers in a factory then they have to go to the countries that will allow them to do this and not drag us down. Or they can move with the times and ensure that their children are brought up in the best environment to suceed in this country and help keep it ahead of the rest.
Calm down boys! To me it is simple. If we don't want it then a foreigner can buy it. If we behave like the Soviet Block did we'll all be driving around in the equivalent of a Moskvitch because of market protection but no invention.
Anyway, wasn't the root cause of the whole british car industry malaise the union power (Red Robbo for one) during the 60's and 70's? Management spent 60% of their time settling strikes not directing the company. My mate blew his XJ engine and a friend of his who worked at Brown's Lane just put a new engine in his van fgor him. He new the guards woudn't dare to look inside for fear of starting a strike. That's not to say management was exactly top rate either.
We can be proud of our technology (look at F1 for example) but we sold the presses and technology to the east and now they manufacture cheaper than us. It's simple economics. Of course, you all only buy british made cars and clothes don't you, and holiday in Cornwall and Devon? I'm afraid that we should at least be proud that Jaguar still exists. However, look at this sad picture I took at Browns Lane a couple of weeks back. Weeds growing and not a person in sight.
Anyway, wasn't the root cause of the whole british car industry malaise the union power (Red Robbo for one) during the 60's and 70's? Management spent 60% of their time settling strikes not directing the company. My mate blew his XJ engine and a friend of his who worked at Brown's Lane just put a new engine in his van fgor him. He new the guards woudn't dare to look inside for fear of starting a strike. That's not to say management was exactly top rate either.
We can be proud of our technology (look at F1 for example) but we sold the presses and technology to the east and now they manufacture cheaper than us. It's simple economics. Of course, you all only buy british made cars and clothes don't you, and holiday in Cornwall and Devon? I'm afraid that we should at least be proud that Jaguar still exists. However, look at this sad picture I took at Browns Lane a couple of weeks back. Weeds growing and not a person in sight.
lowdrag said:
8<------------------------------
Anyway, wasn't the root cause of the whole british car industry malaise the union power (Red Robbo for one) during the 60's and 70's? Management spent 60% of their time settling strikes not directing the company. My mate blew his XJ engine and a friend of his who worked at Brown's Lane just put a new engine in his van fgor him. He new the guards woudn't dare to look inside for fear of starting a strike. That's not to say management was exactly top rate either.
As the Beatles sang
There's one for you, nineteen for me
Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
Who'd work for just 5% ?
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