Jaguar DPF issues
Discussion
Ron99 said:
troika said:
I’m not a lawyer but would be interested in the opinion of someone who is. Jaguar / leasing company should not offer a 5K per annum contract if the goods are not fit for that purpose. You are effectively hiring the car and they know how many miles you are doing in it. If that’s going to cause problems, they shouldn’t offer it.
As I said several posts up: it's the type of driving that matters, not the actual mileage.If every third journey* is at least half an hour** cruising at 50+ mph*** a car is unlikely to have a DPF problem unless there's a faulty component or software.
(*) Every third journey because for many cars, a regen can, at a push, usually be aborted twice, but must complete on the third attempt. If the car says 'keep driving' it means it's on its third and final chance after being interrupted on previous journeys. Its first two attempts are in the background and many drivers won't notice nor be informed that they're happening.
(**) At least half an hour to allow 10-15 minutes for the engine to reach operating temperature so DPF regen can begin, plus 10-15 minutes after that for the regen itself.
(***) Cruise at 50+ mph to give suitable conditions for the regen.
Sheepshanks said:
None of these cars passive regen in normal UK use. The dpf doesn't get anything like hot enough, as the cars produce their power so effortlesly. This business of taking it for a razz every week is a waste of time - we did a 300 mile round trip motorway journey in wife's VW Tiguan, then next day on the 3 mile school run it started an active regen.
In our VW it takes about 10mins. So you'd get into trouble if you were using the car for 5 mins per trip, but anything 'normal' should be fine.
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Yes, the passive regeneration on motorway journeys is a half-truth because at UK speed limits, or even moderately above, the exhaust gases don't get hot enough. In our VW it takes about 10mins. So you'd get into trouble if you were using the car for 5 mins per trip, but anything 'normal' should be fine.
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In fact, in my experience, 70-80mph fills a DPF much sooner than 50-60mph roads.
However, passive regeneration on roads with higher or unrestricted speed is theoretically possible.
But as said in my previous post a few up from this, if every third journey is 30+ minutes cruising at 50+ mph there shouldn't be a problem.
And to be fair, it's rare for a 50-mile journey not to have at least some parts where 50mph can be attained for at least a quarter of an hour to allow a regen to complete.
troika said:
what happens is someone’s driving circumstances change, do they have to go and buy a new petrol vehicle?
If circumstances change, my answer would be: it's the owner's problem, not the manufacturer's problem. Diesel cars are still fit for the purposes that diesel cars are and always were built for. That is, long journeys at medium-high speeds. It's not the fault of the manufacturer that people don't use the car for what it is intended, nor is it the manufacturer's fault that people don't read the manual or research their car before buying.
Even if diesel cars didn't have a DPF, short journeys would probably clog-up the EGR and prematurely wear out the glow plugs, which could be the OP's next looming problems.
Or just don't buy a diesel in the first place. No need to worry about being late for the school run or the shopping in the boot thawing out on a hot summer day when the car says 'DPF full, keep driving'.
If it’s a lease then you don’t own it, the lease company does. What are they saying about the problem?
They may well have more leverage than you do. If it’s blocked twice in such a short space of time maybe there’s an underlying issue.
What sort of journeys are you doing in it? What does the handbook say about the DPF?
They may well have more leverage than you do. If it’s blocked twice in such a short space of time maybe there’s an underlying issue.
What sort of journeys are you doing in it? What does the handbook say about the DPF?
Sheepshanks said:
berlintaxi said:
Sheepshanks said:
Nickbrapp said:
It’s not up to the dealer to find out how you drive,
Not true. They should make sure the vehicle is appropriate for the type of use.
Highlight the relevant paragraph which states a car dealer must establish how you intend to drive their vehicle.
Claiming it is not fit for purpose is complete nonsense, the Ops car may have specific issue which may make it not fit for purpose, but not asking how you intend to drive certainly isn't covered by the consumer rights act.
Edited by berlintaxi on Friday 25th January 17:58
Regardless if Jag wont play ball(they should) then surely the Lease company should. How many cars out there that are Diesel are sold on 5k annual miles? I would imagine thousands.
Most cars that are leased or on PCP are done so by hundreds of thousands of people each year without a clue about how a DPF works.We are not all mechanics. Maybe its going to be the next PPI craze with people being sold engines not fit for purpose. This car should absolutely be able to do 5k miles a year regardless of usage. It will be the used buyers that will suffer after year 4 or 5.
OP out of interest did the lease company say at any point "Make sure you don't do the school runs or shopping trips in this car with your 5k allowance''? I make point on the 5k allowance.
Most cars that are leased or on PCP are done so by hundreds of thousands of people each year without a clue about how a DPF works.We are not all mechanics. Maybe its going to be the next PPI craze with people being sold engines not fit for purpose. This car should absolutely be able to do 5k miles a year regardless of usage. It will be the used buyers that will suffer after year 4 or 5.
OP out of interest did the lease company say at any point "Make sure you don't do the school runs or shopping trips in this car with your 5k allowance''? I make point on the 5k allowance.
Ron99 said:
But as said in my previous post a few up from this, if every third journey is 30+ minutes cruising at 50+ mph there shouldn't be a problem.
And to be fair, it's rare for a 50-mile journey not to have at least some parts where 50mph can be attained for at least a quarter of an hour to allow a regen to complete.
You're not wrong, but can you imagine dealers telling customers that their new car needs to be taken for a 25mile 50MPH+ run every 3rd journey? That's completely ridiculous.And to be fair, it's rare for a 50-mile journey not to have at least some parts where 50mph can be attained for at least a quarter of an hour to allow a regen to complete.
In 3.5 yrs, you could count on your fingers (probably on one hand) the number of times my wife's diesel has done a 25 mile journey.
I don't know what the Jag spec is, but the 2 litre VW diesel is programmed to do an active regen every 465 miles - if the soot loading hasn't called for one earlier. It's hard to tell as it's not easily detectable on the move, but we think it's doing an active regen about every 300 miles.
Sheepshanks said:
berlintaxi said:
Sheepshanks said:
Nickbrapp said:
It’s not up to the dealer to find out how you drive,
Not true. They should make sure the vehicle is appropriate for the type of use.Would it be applicable in this case?
berlintaxi said:
Highlight the relevant paragraph which states a car dealer must establish how you intend to drive their vehicle.
Claiming it is not fit for purpose is complete nonsense, the Ops car may have specific issue which may make it not fit for purpose, but not asking how you intend to drive certainly isn't covered by the consumer rights act.
Sheepshanks said:
....can you imagine dealers telling customers that their new car needs to be taken for a 25mile 50MPH+ run every 3rd journey? That's completely ridiculous..
It wouldn't always need to be every 3rd journey because it can be a few hundred miles and several hours on the road between regens. The problem is that the owner won't know for sure when it needs a regen.
I don't understand why manufacturers can't put an extra gauge on the dash to show the DPF fill status and maybe an estimate of how many miles before the next regen is required, similar to a trip computer.
A simple set of four white LEDs like a basic fuel gauge (see current Corsa fuel gauge with 8 LEDs as an example), with one light being low soot load, two being medium soot load, three being high soot load (with regen needed soon) and four being DPF full (in need of immediate regen, along with dash warning message).
It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, Jaguar Finance in particular, that 5,000 miles per year is a trip to the shops and back every day, a sure fire way to kill the DPF.
The car should be alerting the driver via a warning light on the dash when the DPF is getting full, and asking the driver to refer to the owners manual.
At which point directions should be provided on what the driver needs to do to allow the DPF to properly regenerate and to prevent its failure i.e. take the car for a longer drive until the light extinguishes.
This doesn't appear to have happened. From what the OP has said the car drops into limp-home mode without warning, by which point an active or forced regeneration is no longer possible.
The fact it's happened twice would suggest either a fault with the car, or Jaguar's programming.
I think the OP has a valid cause for complaint f the car has not pre-warned the driver (twice now) that action needs to be taken before the DPF fails completely.
Ron99 said:
Yes, the passive regeneration on motorway journeys is a half-truth because at UK speed limits, or even moderately above, the exhaust gases don't get hot enough.
In fact, in my experience, 70-80mph fills a DPF much sooner than 50-60mph roads.
However, passive regeneration on roads with higher or unrestricted speed is theoretically possible.
But as said in my previous post a few up from this, if every third journey is 30+ minutes cruising at 50+ mph there shouldn't be a problem.
And to be fair, it's rare for a 50-mile journey not to have at least some parts where 50mph can be attained for at least a quarter of an hour to allow a regen to complete.
You sound like you know what you are talking about.In fact, in my experience, 70-80mph fills a DPF much sooner than 50-60mph roads.
However, passive regeneration on roads with higher or unrestricted speed is theoretically possible.
But as said in my previous post a few up from this, if every third journey is 30+ minutes cruising at 50+ mph there shouldn't be a problem.
And to be fair, it's rare for a 50-mile journey not to have at least some parts where 50mph can be attained for at least a quarter of an hour to allow a regen to complete.
How do I know if my dpf needs a regen, or is in the middle of having one? I am clueless on it !
Don’t get any visual indication but you’ll notice a sharp decrease in mpg and a burning smell coming into the cabin.
I’m also curious as to why manufacturers don’t put some sort of warning light to indicate when the Dpf is close to regen or in dire need of a regen. These days, a lot of cars come with some sort of infotainment display that has about a billion sub menus so it should be easily possible to do so.
I also agree that it’s the type of mileage you do not the amount. I do 8k a year on average so well into petrol territory but I drive a big arsed diesel as it spends 99% of the time on a m/way or DC where a diesel is most suited. I’ve never (touch wood) had a problem with the dpf.
I’m also curious as to why manufacturers don’t put some sort of warning light to indicate when the Dpf is close to regen or in dire need of a regen. These days, a lot of cars come with some sort of infotainment display that has about a billion sub menus so it should be easily possible to do so.
I also agree that it’s the type of mileage you do not the amount. I do 8k a year on average so well into petrol territory but I drive a big arsed diesel as it spends 99% of the time on a m/way or DC where a diesel is most suited. I’ve never (touch wood) had a problem with the dpf.
MikeStroud said:
.....How do I know if my dpf needs a regen, or is in the middle of having one? I am clueless on it !...
Sometimes before a regen I think a car can feel a bit sluggish. I suppose a large quantity of soot almost blocking the DPF won't help the flow of exhaust gases.Subtle signs of a regen in progress can sometimes be detected by the driver.
Real-time mpg will be much worse than would be expected.
Slight change in the sound of the engine.
Engine feels a bit down on power.
valiant said:
.....I’m also curious as to why manufacturers don’t put some sort of warning light to indicate when the Dpf is close to regen or in dire need of a regen.
In the early days, some manufacturers did. Unfortunately when 'strange dash lights' came on, owners were taking their cars to dealers in case it was a fault because they hadn't RTFM.Ron99 said:
MikeStroud said:
.....How do I know if my dpf needs a regen, or is in the middle of having one? I am clueless on it !...
Sometimes before a regen I think a car can feel a bit sluggish. I suppose a large quantity of soot almost blocking the DPF won't help the flow of exhaust gases.Subtle signs of a regen in progress can sometimes be detected by the driver.
Real-time mpg will be much worse than would be expected.
Slight change in the sound of the engine.
Engine feels a bit down on power.
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