Discussion
I wondered what the business people on PH thought of this, the main thread has descended into an anti Smolensky rant which is understandable, but do any of you think there is a commercial future for TVR or is it really curtains? I am really interested in the pure business, not in the emotion stuff, GG has that by the threadload!!
imho it is probably dead, but might be there to pick up from a reciever in a couple of months as whatever else has happened NS will want to get rid of it if the move to europe is a red herring.
What seems to be wrong with TVR? It has too many models, it is strangled by SVA restrictions on volume in its approach and an inability to sell enough cars becasue it has a shocking reputation for poor quality. The model range is eccentric, self destructive and is without any real gems - the Tamora is controversial, the Tuscans are unresolved and have too many things that are just odd, the Sagaris is a car with limited appeal and needs to be made by a smaller maker, the T350 is the best shot, but it has not sold in enough numbers becasue it is not quite there and it is too expensive. Essentially the company has little going for it, the experience is less crucial than many on here think and can be counter productive if working practices can't be changed easily. The products are not up to the job and crucially don't sell, if the press is to be believed, at all. The overheads must be crippling, NS must have lost his shirt in the last 2 years because even a russian Oligarchs son must feel the costs of rent, suppliers, and 270 salaries when there is precious little coming in the door. So TVR for all the goodwill is a dead duck commercially
TVR does have a strong brand amongst enthusiasts, but most of it from reading here is based on an enthusiasim for late 90's TVRs not for a love of current models. the late 90s was 10 years ago and in car terms that is 2 model cycles or aincient history. Only a new direction and a bombproof product will actually give the company a future, and that is likely to involve a large injection of cash. Whatever company takes it forward will need to change the product line as drastically as lotus did with the elise or aston did with the DB9 - or TVR did with the Griffith. They need a proper euro compliant car with crash tests and safety devices, becasue that is what the market and increasingly the law demands. They also probably need to look at the environment and they need to reckon on motorsport, PR and advertising to strengthen the brand and bring back understandably nervous buyers.
They need a Griffith for the next decade or it is really the end. I'd love to see TVRs of old rolling out of Blackpool, but I don't think it is going to happen.
Blackpool possibly and Britain definitely are key as a base for assembley and some production, although sourcing components globally is critical as it is for any maker, nobody makes cars by rolling metal in one door and cars out the other anymore, that is not 'proper british car making' it is arcane.
In short there could be a TVR in the future, but it will be a brand based business and it will bear little resembalnce to its past except perhaps in the forms, trouble is I think this is all unlikely. TVR is probably dead which is a great, great shame.
imho it is probably dead, but might be there to pick up from a reciever in a couple of months as whatever else has happened NS will want to get rid of it if the move to europe is a red herring.
What seems to be wrong with TVR? It has too many models, it is strangled by SVA restrictions on volume in its approach and an inability to sell enough cars becasue it has a shocking reputation for poor quality. The model range is eccentric, self destructive and is without any real gems - the Tamora is controversial, the Tuscans are unresolved and have too many things that are just odd, the Sagaris is a car with limited appeal and needs to be made by a smaller maker, the T350 is the best shot, but it has not sold in enough numbers becasue it is not quite there and it is too expensive. Essentially the company has little going for it, the experience is less crucial than many on here think and can be counter productive if working practices can't be changed easily. The products are not up to the job and crucially don't sell, if the press is to be believed, at all. The overheads must be crippling, NS must have lost his shirt in the last 2 years because even a russian Oligarchs son must feel the costs of rent, suppliers, and 270 salaries when there is precious little coming in the door. So TVR for all the goodwill is a dead duck commercially
TVR does have a strong brand amongst enthusiasts, but most of it from reading here is based on an enthusiasim for late 90's TVRs not for a love of current models. the late 90s was 10 years ago and in car terms that is 2 model cycles or aincient history. Only a new direction and a bombproof product will actually give the company a future, and that is likely to involve a large injection of cash. Whatever company takes it forward will need to change the product line as drastically as lotus did with the elise or aston did with the DB9 - or TVR did with the Griffith. They need a proper euro compliant car with crash tests and safety devices, becasue that is what the market and increasingly the law demands. They also probably need to look at the environment and they need to reckon on motorsport, PR and advertising to strengthen the brand and bring back understandably nervous buyers.
They need a Griffith for the next decade or it is really the end. I'd love to see TVRs of old rolling out of Blackpool, but I don't think it is going to happen.
Blackpool possibly and Britain definitely are key as a base for assembley and some production, although sourcing components globally is critical as it is for any maker, nobody makes cars by rolling metal in one door and cars out the other anymore, that is not 'proper british car making' it is arcane.
In short there could be a TVR in the future, but it will be a brand based business and it will bear little resembalnce to its past except perhaps in the forms, trouble is I think this is all unlikely. TVR is probably dead which is a great, great shame.
You say pure business no emotion, thats impossible with TVR. I have had 2 and yes while you expect a quirky sports / supercar to not be as reliable as say a Ford, it does wear thin.
I got sick to death of problem after problem after problem. The regular £1000+ bills from the garage (largest £3500) but I ll bet thats small by some peoples experience. Yes some guys and gals would have never had a problem with the car but on the whole I think they were the exception.
I know that the latest cars had a 3 year warranty and not before time, but I feel its a brand tarnished by its past image. The novelty of crap build quality, overheating and imminent breakdowns wear off after a while. I for one am sad that TVR is no more (we have heard that before?) and hope it is reinvented at some point but it wont be the same, and I for one will never have another one.
I got sick to death of problem after problem after problem. The regular £1000+ bills from the garage (largest £3500) but I ll bet thats small by some peoples experience. Yes some guys and gals would have never had a problem with the car but on the whole I think they were the exception.
I know that the latest cars had a 3 year warranty and not before time, but I feel its a brand tarnished by its past image. The novelty of crap build quality, overheating and imminent breakdowns wear off after a while. I for one am sad that TVR is no more (we have heard that before?) and hope it is reinvented at some point but it wont be the same, and I for one will never have another one.
I can't understand the anti Smolenski thing from the general public. Without him & his dosh, the deck of cards would have folded a while ago.
I can't comment on what he is like to work for, because I don't.
Spoken as an outsider, I would say that if anybody wants to do a study of how not to run a company, look at TVR. (and I don't just mean in the last few years). 'Tis a shame.
I can't comment on what he is like to work for, because I don't.
Spoken as an outsider, I would say that if anybody wants to do a study of how not to run a company, look at TVR. (and I don't just mean in the last few years). 'Tis a shame.
Yes, it is a sad day but hardly a great shock. Not wanting to jump on the Anti Smolenski forum, but any business is only as good as its leader, If the Leader is strong then who ever is below CAN be replaced (that is only a finance issue)
A business such as TVR needs direction and all that has happened since the last take-over is continuation of an already flawed product range. They have been in constant denial of quality issues and the lack of respect for consumer satisfaction is/was appalling.
Lets hope that whatever happens now Mr S and his management either get to grips with the fundamental issues and go 'back to basics' of fast hand built cars and a real regard for customer loyalty.
It is no secret that when Mr S bought the company the previous owner 'had is pants down' and the management of the time must have know what the state of play was.
I suggest a complete downsize of the operation and range, and restructure the management.
Christ...they don't even support any competition and they are a Sports Car Company.
That's for free...In the event that Mr S is still a true a fan of the brand and not just some rich type with a plaything he is welcome to drop me a line.
My rates are very reasonable
The business case is very simple - TVR needs to sell around 25 cars per week to make a snall profit, service past debts and be able to plan for the future. This is not impossible. In the mid 1990s TVR achieved double this figure and then some, so demand for the brand was there. The problem is that TVR missunderstood the nature of their customer base. When PW bought the company most TVR sales were to enthusiasts who knew the brand and accepted its foibles.
The launch of the Griff and Chim brought TVR to the attention of a wider audience - beautiful cars always do this. The legend of the Lairy TVR V8 Brit supercar, conceived by PW during the later wedge era suddenly took on a more sophisticated and, dare one say it practical element. The combination of blistering pace, drop dead looks (inside and out) reasonable practicality and a gorgeous exhaust note proved irresistable to a broad swathe of the market market that was more accustomed to Porsche and Jaguars at one end, and toyota MR2 and Mazda Mx5s at the other. The fact that it was British and just a tad unruly made the package complete.
The trouble is that many of the new audience were really not of a mind to tolerate the sorts of everyday niggles that TVR ownership entailed back then. As soon as these new customers were conquered TVR started to lose them, steadily and surely. The Cerbera really accelerated the rot - the early ones were eye wateringly unreliable and massively costly to fix. By the time the Tuscan came along the problems were mounting. The Griff and Chim had been soldiering on largely unchanged for a bit too long, so many customers who were still warm to the brand had drifted away in search of something new. And there was a lot of new stuff for them to look at as increasing numbers of manufacturers staked out a claim for little bits of TVR territory, with a cumulative effect of nicking almost all of it! When they came back to TVR to look at the Tuscan they found a flawed car, that was more of a challenge to own than their beloved Griffs and Chims. Some of that killer combination had been lost. The fact that the Sp6 engine turned out to have some major problems was almost the final nail in the coffin. Sales fell rapidly year on year thereafter.
I say, almost the last nail because it is still a rescuable concern imho. Selling 25+ cars a week can be done. BUT, those cars need to recreate the feelgood factor that mid 1990s TVR ownership brought. The cars need to look right, go well and sound right too. They need to be mechanically reliable and durable. They need to be well assembled. I don't think we need them to be Porsche clones with perfect panel gaps and multifunction driver safety aids, but we do need things to function for more than 12k miles without a rebuild, and I suspect that ABS brakes would be the minimum that many drivers would demand these days.
So,, Looks, Pace, Sound, Quality and safety engineering thats at least 1990s instead of 1940s. Keep it British.
Thats my recipe for what went wrong and what to do to put it right.
Andy
The launch of the Griff and Chim brought TVR to the attention of a wider audience - beautiful cars always do this. The legend of the Lairy TVR V8 Brit supercar, conceived by PW during the later wedge era suddenly took on a more sophisticated and, dare one say it practical element. The combination of blistering pace, drop dead looks (inside and out) reasonable practicality and a gorgeous exhaust note proved irresistable to a broad swathe of the market market that was more accustomed to Porsche and Jaguars at one end, and toyota MR2 and Mazda Mx5s at the other. The fact that it was British and just a tad unruly made the package complete.
The trouble is that many of the new audience were really not of a mind to tolerate the sorts of everyday niggles that TVR ownership entailed back then. As soon as these new customers were conquered TVR started to lose them, steadily and surely. The Cerbera really accelerated the rot - the early ones were eye wateringly unreliable and massively costly to fix. By the time the Tuscan came along the problems were mounting. The Griff and Chim had been soldiering on largely unchanged for a bit too long, so many customers who were still warm to the brand had drifted away in search of something new. And there was a lot of new stuff for them to look at as increasing numbers of manufacturers staked out a claim for little bits of TVR territory, with a cumulative effect of nicking almost all of it! When they came back to TVR to look at the Tuscan they found a flawed car, that was more of a challenge to own than their beloved Griffs and Chims. Some of that killer combination had been lost. The fact that the Sp6 engine turned out to have some major problems was almost the final nail in the coffin. Sales fell rapidly year on year thereafter.
I say, almost the last nail because it is still a rescuable concern imho. Selling 25+ cars a week can be done. BUT, those cars need to recreate the feelgood factor that mid 1990s TVR ownership brought. The cars need to look right, go well and sound right too. They need to be mechanically reliable and durable. They need to be well assembled. I don't think we need them to be Porsche clones with perfect panel gaps and multifunction driver safety aids, but we do need things to function for more than 12k miles without a rebuild, and I suspect that ABS brakes would be the minimum that many drivers would demand these days.
So,, Looks, Pace, Sound, Quality and safety engineering thats at least 1990s instead of 1940s. Keep it British.
Thats my recipe for what went wrong and what to do to put it right.
Andy
Edited by andymadmak on Thursday 19th October 13:57
Edited by andymadmak on Thursday 19th October 13:58
My immediate thoughts would be that the brand is safe and the company is unlikely to go under. I believe Smolenski has appreciated the growing LHD market and also that Russia has far more affluent people coming online than the UK with lower expectations of what a performance sports car should entail.
With regards to the model line up. I actually think its brilliant. The Sagaris is fantastic, the Tuscan as sexy as ever and the T350 makes a good toned down model. However, in the bracket they are trying to fight in, people dont actually want the level of bare bones the TVR offers. They'd like to think they do, but the lack of ABS, traction control, airbags etc simply makes it one more thing for the wife to give them hassle about. They need to introduce these systems. I personally wouldnt want them, as I dont see the need, but then, I dont have any of that stuff on my Celica and thats just cause I'm hardcore
Reliability is actually fairly easy to solve. Stop trying to convince yourself that you can make engines. Lovely sounding as they are, is anyone going to tell me that simply going to an established manufacturer and buying and engine then fitting a tuned exhaust couldnt produce the same? Look at the Weismann. M3 running gear, reliable as you like. IMHO, they should go talk to a Japanese manufacturer and broker an engine deal. Nissan has a fine selection of I6, V6 and V8 engines off the shelf with Nismo performance internals already developed. Ditto, Toyota have I6, V6 and V8 platforms with TRD tweeks off the shelf ready to be installed. Using these engines would probably allow them to be emissions compliant in the USA. How many Tuscans could they quite probably have sold off the back of the movie Swordfish!
If cheaper production allows them to engineer in better quality and better market-matching equipment, I think they'll do well.
With regards to the model line up. I actually think its brilliant. The Sagaris is fantastic, the Tuscan as sexy as ever and the T350 makes a good toned down model. However, in the bracket they are trying to fight in, people dont actually want the level of bare bones the TVR offers. They'd like to think they do, but the lack of ABS, traction control, airbags etc simply makes it one more thing for the wife to give them hassle about. They need to introduce these systems. I personally wouldnt want them, as I dont see the need, but then, I dont have any of that stuff on my Celica and thats just cause I'm hardcore
Reliability is actually fairly easy to solve. Stop trying to convince yourself that you can make engines. Lovely sounding as they are, is anyone going to tell me that simply going to an established manufacturer and buying and engine then fitting a tuned exhaust couldnt produce the same? Look at the Weismann. M3 running gear, reliable as you like. IMHO, they should go talk to a Japanese manufacturer and broker an engine deal. Nissan has a fine selection of I6, V6 and V8 engines off the shelf with Nismo performance internals already developed. Ditto, Toyota have I6, V6 and V8 platforms with TRD tweeks off the shelf ready to be installed. Using these engines would probably allow them to be emissions compliant in the USA. How many Tuscans could they quite probably have sold off the back of the movie Swordfish!
If cheaper production allows them to engineer in better quality and better market-matching equipment, I think they'll do well.
What is wrong with TVR?
Customers don't want to buy their cars. Simple as that. The product line up does not attract enough customers.
1) They need better product.
Oh..one can argue until the cows come home what that entails. Different engines. More classic looks versus the max-power designs. You name it. I can't comment on what makes a great design - I'm not a design expert. What I do know is that no-one wanted the new cars. Lament all one wants but this is the case.
2) Their product is too expensive.
TVR used to compete in a market with few convertibles in it at around 30K. Then the big boys wanted a piece of that action. PW took the company upmarket. To where a different set of competitors were playing. And they wiped the floor with TVR. TVR needs cars that people buying an AudiTT might have instead.
3) Their product is technologically too old-fashioned
I'm sorry. Its not just the volume market that wanted electric roofs, ABS, Traction and anti-spin. And Audi/Honda et al will give you it at a cheaper price.
So. What's to do.
Take the brand - for whatever its worth - and the few key players you really need and go build cars in Eastern Europe somewhere. Build costs can be slashed. The pricing can be fixed.
As to the technology and design? The design can be fixed. Hire someone. Make it look nice!
The technology will be harder. But it can be done by outsourcing.
The key thing for TVR is to absolutely slash costs. And design cars people want to buy at a price they are willing to pay. Bloody hard thing to do at the best of times....
I really hope succeed.
Customers don't want to buy their cars. Simple as that. The product line up does not attract enough customers.
1) They need better product.
Oh..one can argue until the cows come home what that entails. Different engines. More classic looks versus the max-power designs. You name it. I can't comment on what makes a great design - I'm not a design expert. What I do know is that no-one wanted the new cars. Lament all one wants but this is the case.
2) Their product is too expensive.
TVR used to compete in a market with few convertibles in it at around 30K. Then the big boys wanted a piece of that action. PW took the company upmarket. To where a different set of competitors were playing. And they wiped the floor with TVR. TVR needs cars that people buying an AudiTT might have instead.
3) Their product is technologically too old-fashioned
I'm sorry. Its not just the volume market that wanted electric roofs, ABS, Traction and anti-spin. And Audi/Honda et al will give you it at a cheaper price.
So. What's to do.
Take the brand - for whatever its worth - and the few key players you really need and go build cars in Eastern Europe somewhere. Build costs can be slashed. The pricing can be fixed.
As to the technology and design? The design can be fixed. Hire someone. Make it look nice!
The technology will be harder. But it can be done by outsourcing.
The key thing for TVR is to absolutely slash costs. And design cars people want to buy at a price they are willing to pay. Bloody hard thing to do at the best of times....
I really hope succeed.
There is an interesting comparison with Lotus and TVR.
Lotus have clearly decided what market they are after. They have focused their small R&D on a selection of focused machienes that tick all the boxes they were intending on ticking. Lotus = small & fast track / fun car. They compete with kit cars, Atoms and such like. Lotus also keep their cars obtainable by keeping a range of products that start at a relatively modest price up to supercharged monsters that go like hell.
Who buys a TVR... A hard core enthusiast for a daily driver? A fun second car? What are the competitors? Wiseman, Z4, Gayman/Boxter. The market seems quite small for 2 seater sports cars in this kind of price bracket. Who has a spare £30k+ to spend on a second car? I dare say not many...
It is also interesting the new Lotus MD has almost ditched the Esprit to focus on the engineering side. This is clearly where he sees the £££ comming for the next few years.
And then we come to the brand. Lotus had a big problem in the 90's with 'Lots of Trouble, Usually Serious' image. They have been cracking out good cars now for 10+ years using the reliable Rover, Toyota and now Vauxhall engines. I still know people who remember this old saying. They are at least trying and probably clawing back some ground.
TVR? I have never owned a TVR. I SERIOUSLY concidered it last time around but decided agaist it. Why? I am simply too scared of the bills I may encounter if I get a wrong one. Would I buy a Lotus? Yes (if I could fit in one!). Most people associate TVRs with being brutal (to the point of dangerous), fast and unreliable. Looking at the Sagaris is unlikely to change your mind...
But it all boils down to a simple equation. Incommings - outgoings. With a stagnant or declining top line, unless you invest in increasing sales or cut costs you are going to go under. By moving abroad they seem to be cutting costs and I dare say getting rid of some dead wood?
IMHO, TVR need to do some soul searching and decide what market they are after, what products they need and what is the most cost effective way of achieving this. Then they can put together a business stratergy that delivers in the shortest possible time.
Marcos seem to be going down this road of 're-inventing' themselves with the new TSO. I wonder if they will make it offering a £50k+ car to a conjested market place. I hope they do.
Lotus have clearly decided what market they are after. They have focused their small R&D on a selection of focused machienes that tick all the boxes they were intending on ticking. Lotus = small & fast track / fun car. They compete with kit cars, Atoms and such like. Lotus also keep their cars obtainable by keeping a range of products that start at a relatively modest price up to supercharged monsters that go like hell.
Who buys a TVR... A hard core enthusiast for a daily driver? A fun second car? What are the competitors? Wiseman, Z4, Gayman/Boxter. The market seems quite small for 2 seater sports cars in this kind of price bracket. Who has a spare £30k+ to spend on a second car? I dare say not many...
It is also interesting the new Lotus MD has almost ditched the Esprit to focus on the engineering side. This is clearly where he sees the £££ comming for the next few years.
And then we come to the brand. Lotus had a big problem in the 90's with 'Lots of Trouble, Usually Serious' image. They have been cracking out good cars now for 10+ years using the reliable Rover, Toyota and now Vauxhall engines. I still know people who remember this old saying. They are at least trying and probably clawing back some ground.
TVR? I have never owned a TVR. I SERIOUSLY concidered it last time around but decided agaist it. Why? I am simply too scared of the bills I may encounter if I get a wrong one. Would I buy a Lotus? Yes (if I could fit in one!). Most people associate TVRs with being brutal (to the point of dangerous), fast and unreliable. Looking at the Sagaris is unlikely to change your mind...
But it all boils down to a simple equation. Incommings - outgoings. With a stagnant or declining top line, unless you invest in increasing sales or cut costs you are going to go under. By moving abroad they seem to be cutting costs and I dare say getting rid of some dead wood?
IMHO, TVR need to do some soul searching and decide what market they are after, what products they need and what is the most cost effective way of achieving this. Then they can put together a business stratergy that delivers in the shortest possible time.
Marcos seem to be going down this road of 're-inventing' themselves with the new TSO. I wonder if they will make it offering a £50k+ car to a conjested market place. I hope they do.
Some time ago I looked at the financial results of TVR and, quite frankly, if it were a dog you'd put it down. The only future for TVR, in my opinion, is if it's bought by a large car producer which has:
1) An established dealer network
2) Significant economines of scale (modern plant and equipment, modern manufacturing and quality procedures, purchasing power, a decent marketing team, etc...)
Now I realise a lot of die-hard fans will view the above as herecy and will turn their backs on TVR. However, a greater number of people who don't currently trust TVR would get a comfort level from new ownership.
Take Vauxhall (GM). They've teamed up with Lotus to produce the VX220 and Holden to produce the Camarro (or whatever it's called). Vauxhall has a tired brand. Maybe if they bought the TVR marque to spice up their boring brand it could be a case of 1+1=3. Personally I wouldn't know whether to laugh or cry, but at least the marqe would continue and the general public's perception of a poorly built product could start to be remedied.
1) An established dealer network
2) Significant economines of scale (modern plant and equipment, modern manufacturing and quality procedures, purchasing power, a decent marketing team, etc...)
Now I realise a lot of die-hard fans will view the above as herecy and will turn their backs on TVR. However, a greater number of people who don't currently trust TVR would get a comfort level from new ownership.
Take Vauxhall (GM). They've teamed up with Lotus to produce the VX220 and Holden to produce the Camarro (or whatever it's called). Vauxhall has a tired brand. Maybe if they bought the TVR marque to spice up their boring brand it could be a case of 1+1=3. Personally I wouldn't know whether to laugh or cry, but at least the marqe would continue and the general public's perception of a poorly built product could start to be remedied.
I suspect that they have made one of the same mistakes that Leyland made years ago - too many of their own models competing amongst themselves.
They have got rather expensive and are still rightly or wrongly dogged by the reliability concerns.
It really is a tragic loss of another great British manufacturer and the end of an era.
I hope that the future of TVR can be safeguarded and just wonder if the warning noises made a while back were a ploy to see if the government or Blackpool Council would offer enough cash to keep the marque here.
A great shame for the company and its staff.
They have got rather expensive and are still rightly or wrongly dogged by the reliability concerns.
It really is a tragic loss of another great British manufacturer and the end of an era.
I hope that the future of TVR can be safeguarded and just wonder if the warning noises made a while back were a ploy to see if the government or Blackpool Council would offer enough cash to keep the marque here.
A great shame for the company and its staff.
How much manufacturing goes on in the UK? In comparison to most of Europe, not a lot. What is here is either historic stuff, high-tech, or companies from outwith the EU that had to get by tariffs and were lured to the UK by massive subsidies.
Here in Scotland we've got a number of empty factories built by Hyundai/Motorola et al who rather rapidly bailed out.
We've seen that products can be assembled in Eastern Europe at far lower cost and without significant detriment to quality. (I can't say I can tell much difference in build from a Skoda to a Seat to a VW.)
Now, does building in Britain really provide the only incentive to buy a TVR? If Porsche built cars like TVR at TVR prices, what would you have?
If it's quality that is the main issue with TVR now, then moving away to cut costs to invest in better quality can only do them good.
Personally I think the styling of some of the newer models has gone a bit OTT and max-power and they are better with the simple curvy look. If they can get back to building gorgeous cars and make them so they are more reliable then they're laughing.
In fact, I think being in Britain and building mainly RHD cars was probably a weakness.
That said, I still love them and have gone a little mad and am considering a nasty unreliable late 90's effort.
Here in Scotland we've got a number of empty factories built by Hyundai/Motorola et al who rather rapidly bailed out.
We've seen that products can be assembled in Eastern Europe at far lower cost and without significant detriment to quality. (I can't say I can tell much difference in build from a Skoda to a Seat to a VW.)
Now, does building in Britain really provide the only incentive to buy a TVR? If Porsche built cars like TVR at TVR prices, what would you have?
If it's quality that is the main issue with TVR now, then moving away to cut costs to invest in better quality can only do them good.
Personally I think the styling of some of the newer models has gone a bit OTT and max-power and they are better with the simple curvy look. If they can get back to building gorgeous cars and make them so they are more reliable then they're laughing.
In fact, I think being in Britain and building mainly RHD cars was probably a weakness.
That said, I still love them and have gone a little mad and am considering a nasty unreliable late 90's effort.
If sales really have dropped to two cars per week what is their annual turnover down to? Maybe as low as 5 million pounds per annum, not even enough to cover their current wages bill I would have thought. Even if they had free rent, rates, components and no warranty claims they couldn't make a profit on that kind of turnover without radical restructuring, and what would be left after such restructuring wouldn't be recognisable as TVR.
Only a very brave (or foolish) man would invest the necessary amounts of money required to turn TVR into a viable business, they would be very, very unlikely to ever see a return on their investment.
Only a very brave (or foolish) man would invest the necessary amounts of money required to turn TVR into a viable business, they would be very, very unlikely to ever see a return on their investment.
david_s said:
they would be very, very unlikely to ever see a return on their investment.
To be fair, it was bought for what, £15m, best year ever there was £200K profit shown so off the bat he was looking at a 75 year ROI period
Trouble is during the Chim/Griff years they were operating in a fairly unique sector now theres a lot of people after the £30K second car buyers, Ariel, Caterham, Lotus and a variety of kit build/specialist manufacturers.
Update the design, update the technology, use crated lumps, assemble to plan in low employment cost areas, drop the price and batter the marketing and I think it could pay for itself eventually. I cant see it ever becoming a real threat to Porsche as a business but I do think it doesnt *have* to die either.
How much good money would you throw after bad? Consider the current investment as a sunk cost, is it worth throwing another £5m at it? And £5m wouldn't buy much r&d or marketing, so maybe £10m would be a better start. You don't usually get to be wealthy without having some sense, and if NS doesn't surely his dad does. I think that it would take a major investment to turn things round and I can't see it making financial sense. The budgets of the major competitors are huge in comparison, and they have established market share. TVR may have a very small niche as it stands, but is it worth investing to try to reach a wider market? You would need very deep pockets and a lot of patience. Can't see it happening.
david_s said:
If sales really have dropped to two cars per week what is their annual turnover down to? Maybe as low as 5 million pounds per annum, not even enough to cover their current wages bill I would have thought. Even if they had free rent, rates, components and no warranty claims they couldn't make a profit on that kind of turnover without radical restructuring, and what would be left after such restructuring wouldn't be recognisable as TVR.
Only a very brave (or foolish) man would invest the necessary amounts of money required to turn TVR into a viable business, they would be very, very unlikely to ever see a return on their investment.
Only a very brave (or foolish) man would invest the necessary amounts of money required to turn TVR into a viable business, they would be very, very unlikely to ever see a return on their investment.
Two cars a week on average.
52 weeks in the year = 104 cars. Average price of, say, £45K. Gross revenue = 4.68 million. Your 5 million estimate looks spot on...
Dear oh dear...
As much as many of us would like to think TVR has something going for it, the facts stack up against it.
Buyers of TVR models are essentially buying into the "British Bulldog/ Quirky/Different to the mainstream" image that has been created by TVR over the years. Moving TVR from the UK will be enough to nail the coffin shut. Once all that remains is the brand... then it truly dies. No manufacturer would be remotely interested in buying the brand as they've all been spending loads of time and effort into making their own cars stand out and provide some "bonkers" factor.
Model line up - Look at what other manufacturers are doing... the model line up at TVR is utterly confused and conflicting. Some of this is due to regulations on model production but either way they are not responding to market trends and requirements.
Cost - A TVR used to be cheap entry into an exclusive "supercar" club. This is no longer the case. A Lambo used to cost the same as a Suburban semi... they are now more accessible than ever and a TVR comes in at a price of a new Porsche. 15 years ago you could add up the options list to a Porsche and it'd cost more than a whole TVR.
Reliability - No need to repeat what EVERYONE has been saying over the last few years.
USP - Is there a unique selling point for a TVR anymore? Most of the great "ideas" have been used by the other manufacturers... handle-less doors, start buttons, etc.,etc.,
Could they be saved? Not now in my opinion (would love to be proved wrong, I really would). Personally I'd love to see a modernised cerbera with a Chevy V8 supercharged engine.
In my opinion they should look at the market and close the gaps:
1. Lightweight cheap sportscar
Let's see a practical version of an Elise and a return of the S
2. Barnstormer 2+2
Larger than a Cerbera, midway between DB9 and Panamera. 2 door, sports oriented but will do the GT thing. Cheap way to get into an AM competitor.
3. Z4M killer
Electric folding GRP roof, V8 powered and huge fun. Big enough boot for weekend jaunts in comfort, helmet pods behind the seats to nod towards the trackday fiend.
Steering clear of outright taking on the big stuff such as Zonda,Koenigsegg, Murcielago etc.,
All of the above would be done with a view to undercut competition and stick to some core values i.e, big engine, strong chassis, plastic body. Try and keep some quirks, try and keep organic, curvatious looks and a "family" feel to the range.
Buyers of TVR models are essentially buying into the "British Bulldog/ Quirky/Different to the mainstream" image that has been created by TVR over the years. Moving TVR from the UK will be enough to nail the coffin shut. Once all that remains is the brand... then it truly dies. No manufacturer would be remotely interested in buying the brand as they've all been spending loads of time and effort into making their own cars stand out and provide some "bonkers" factor.
Model line up - Look at what other manufacturers are doing... the model line up at TVR is utterly confused and conflicting. Some of this is due to regulations on model production but either way they are not responding to market trends and requirements.
Cost - A TVR used to be cheap entry into an exclusive "supercar" club. This is no longer the case. A Lambo used to cost the same as a Suburban semi... they are now more accessible than ever and a TVR comes in at a price of a new Porsche. 15 years ago you could add up the options list to a Porsche and it'd cost more than a whole TVR.
Reliability - No need to repeat what EVERYONE has been saying over the last few years.
USP - Is there a unique selling point for a TVR anymore? Most of the great "ideas" have been used by the other manufacturers... handle-less doors, start buttons, etc.,etc.,
Could they be saved? Not now in my opinion (would love to be proved wrong, I really would). Personally I'd love to see a modernised cerbera with a Chevy V8 supercharged engine.
In my opinion they should look at the market and close the gaps:
1. Lightweight cheap sportscar
Let's see a practical version of an Elise and a return of the S
2. Barnstormer 2+2
Larger than a Cerbera, midway between DB9 and Panamera. 2 door, sports oriented but will do the GT thing. Cheap way to get into an AM competitor.
3. Z4M killer
Electric folding GRP roof, V8 powered and huge fun. Big enough boot for weekend jaunts in comfort, helmet pods behind the seats to nod towards the trackday fiend.
Steering clear of outright taking on the big stuff such as Zonda,Koenigsegg, Murcielago etc.,
All of the above would be done with a view to undercut competition and stick to some core values i.e, big engine, strong chassis, plastic body. Try and keep some quirks, try and keep organic, curvatious looks and a "family" feel to the range.
If you look at the numbers I suspect you'd find that the big crippler is the cost of engines - building (and until recently warranty). When the AJP was developed I recall there was a plan to sell it to other producers, but quality control pretty much bashed that one on the head
The AJP costs far more to produce than equivalent engines so the margin per car is much tighter. In the mid 90's I was reliably informed by an insider who really knew his stuff, that it cost £16,000 to build a Griffith or Chimaera which would retail for about £30,000. TVR can't be anywhere near this kind of margin now. The profits from the Rover engined cars underwrote the huge cost of devloping the AJP - but that was only ever going to work if the unit was sold in higher volumes as the margin per car was eroded.
Although NS doesn't seem to have been to quick off the mark in his choice of board room acolytes - he has allegedly been seen at engine plants run by other manufacturers. It must make sense to revert to a powertrain made in the UK
( By Ford or Jaguar perhaps) where all the development costs have been carried by someone else and the unit cost is a lot lower due to economies of scale that TVR could only fantisise about
As Aston Martin are up for sale Ford have no ongoing particulat loyalty to them - so my bet would be that the next gneration of TVR's will have power units all the way from Bridgend, linked to the good old Volvo (Ford) T5 Box...
The AJP costs far more to produce than equivalent engines so the margin per car is much tighter. In the mid 90's I was reliably informed by an insider who really knew his stuff, that it cost £16,000 to build a Griffith or Chimaera which would retail for about £30,000. TVR can't be anywhere near this kind of margin now. The profits from the Rover engined cars underwrote the huge cost of devloping the AJP - but that was only ever going to work if the unit was sold in higher volumes as the margin per car was eroded.
Although NS doesn't seem to have been to quick off the mark in his choice of board room acolytes - he has allegedly been seen at engine plants run by other manufacturers. It must make sense to revert to a powertrain made in the UK
( By Ford or Jaguar perhaps) where all the development costs have been carried by someone else and the unit cost is a lot lower due to economies of scale that TVR could only fantisise about
As Aston Martin are up for sale Ford have no ongoing particulat loyalty to them - so my bet would be that the next gneration of TVR's will have power units all the way from Bridgend, linked to the good old Volvo (Ford) T5 Box...
Interesting thread.
I was wondering if there would be sense in keeping the name, soldiering on with a tiny operation to service what cars are selling, and going to speak to Morgan about some platform/engine sharing.
Morgan stays as is but shares/lowers its costs;
TVR uses a sound base for redevelopment of a new range of British muscle cars with contemporary styling.
Thoughts?
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