Lying about potential rates by Recruitment Agencies

[_daveR]

It gets my goat!!

Looking for a new gig at the moment so trawling Jobserve/Jobsite etc etc. I see some roles I am capable of, with the daily rate that I am looking for so I apply.

I then get a phone call from the agent and suddenly the rate is a good £50-£80 less than advertised. The gayers!

[LeTim]

I wonder, would that £50-80 be there cut which they deliberately omitted to deduct from the advertised rate in order to make it look higher than it is.

[_daveR]

He did mention a fixed margin so it sounds likely.

Its not a job that "excites" me so if he gets the rate I want then Ill interview for it, if he doesn't then I won't!

[flyingjase]

Outrageous behaviour that really annoys me - don't understand why people do it. As soon as you speak to them you're going to find out the truth, so may as well be upfront.

No wonder the industry has a bad reputation!

[shadowninja]

They call themselves consultants but they are usually another type of job.

Edited by shadowninja on Friday 4th January 13:12

[thunderTS]

Its not always lying; lots of times I've had clients call me after I've advertised a job and tell me they want to reduce the daily rate.

[dcb]

flyingjase said:

No wonder the industry has a bad reputation!

They are just the same as estate agents
and used car dealers.

A bunch of middle men just trying to match
up buyers and sellers.

I've dealt with dozens of agencies over the years
and I can count the ones I'd be happy to do business
with again on the fingers of one hand.

There really is a massive gap in the market
for a reputable recruitment agency that can

1. Pay up on time.

2. Work for reasonable margins.
Some of them want 20% FFS.

3. Employs people that actually understand
what the buzzwords mean and how they
fit together.

[petclub]

If a thing has been advertised quoting specifics that turn out to be untrue then it is false representation. False representation constitutes an offences under the Fraud Act 2006. For example, to turn it around slightly, applying for a job and lying on your cv is an offence for which you can be prosecuted (more likely just dismissed or not employed).

You may wish to discuss that with them (you won't get far but uou may feel better ).

[Bruce Lee]

dcb said:

flyingjase said:

No wonder the industry has a bad reputation!

They are just the same as estate agents
and used car dealers.

A bunch of middle men just trying to match
up buyers and sellers.

I've dealt with dozens of agencies over the years
and I can count the ones I'd be happy to do business
with again on the fingers of one hand.

There really is a massive gap in the market
for a reputable recruitment agency that can

1. Pay up on time.

2. Work for reasonable margins.
Some of them want 20% FFS.

3. Employs people that actually understand
what the buzzwords mean and how they
fit together.

Hi,
I am a specialist Technology Recruiter, (.NET/C# markets)I own and manage my own consultancy. Yes I am a consultant not an agent!

I have operated in the market for several years especially within the contract markets in London for a very large corporate player before setting up on my own. Beleive me it's dog eat dog.

One of my drivers for creating and starting my own business was because of the frustrations you guy's have discussed.

Off the bat in answer to the OP and without wishing to sound patronising, you need to negotiate and be tough with agents, think of number one. Alot of large agents will work to a 20% margin (alot of times for less) or mark-up (there is a difference between margin and mark-up, however let's not get into that right now!) If you really want the contract i.e. the technologies and project is entertaining you are only one that can decide what rate you will work for. Remember a recruiter needs/wants to fill the role so if you are the best candidate for the role they will be flexible on the rate. Just remember if the rate quoted by the agent is say £350 a day then the charge rate to the client is probably £50-100 a day+. So work with it! The trade off though and be mindful is that in a candidate rich climate, if the agent has 5 developers under offer by a client they (in most cases!) will go for the most competively priced candidate. That's business I guess and probably why I will never make a million! It is a VERY candidate driven market right now so you guy's have the advantage so work with it, make hay and all that.

One thing I do disagree with though (sorry to get a bee in my bonnet, I won't go on too much more!) is that not ALL recruiters are a bunch of middle men or whatever, there are plenty of good ones around however there are loads of not so good ones either, it can be a lottery. BUT BELEIVE ME THERE ARE PLENTY OF NOT SO GOOD CANDIDATES TOO!

It's like anything in life there are bad developers, buliders, doctors, lawyers, car dealers, you name it! So don't just broadstroke....!

I understand the buzz words because I speacialise however I am not a developer so will never be as techie as you however not afraid to admit either.

I will also admit that I need to pay my mortgage too and put petrol in the Porsche however I tell all my candidates what the charge rate to the client is and what I pay a candidate. I want to grow a business through being in hondest and upfront. So then be able to fill that gap in the market.

Good luck and if you need anyother genuine advice don't hesitate to ask.

[Mosi]

Hi DaveR, how you doing mate...call me this week if you are focussed on moving on, I will get my people to give you some pref treatment matey

anyway...here we go again!

I run/own an IT/Tech recruitment group with 1200+ Contractors on assignment, therefore can probably add a valid comment or two here.

Firstly, because the industry has been so paranoid about staffing business' margins over the years (rather than service level and delivery), margins are at such a low level these days that many staffing business' cannot afford to deploy decent recruiters onto certain accounts (nor would any half decent recruiter want to work on accs where commission is nigh impossible to earn!), so do bear in mind that more often than not a jobseeker will have to deal with nothing more than a low level resource/process jockey on c£15k p/a. Both sides of the industry (both Client & Contractor) have forced this situation, dont expect the best when there is hardly anything in the middle to work with.

Secondly, bear in mind that Clients often REALLY dick staffing business' around, for every job that comes good we spend a lot of time working on activities that goes nowhere.

Thirdly, YES! of course we are middle men trying to match buyers & sellers. We broker skills for a living for Gods sake - thats the whole bloomin business model! If we werent, we'd become 'Consultancies' aka Body Shops....not unlike many of you Contractors have become over the years...the margins are horrendous in this sector (30-50%+) - for offering pretty much the same service!

I could go on about the numerous court cases I am having to deal with currently, where 'Contractors' have forged timesheets fraudulently to obtain money from us illegally etc, but rather than write off the whole contracting community I will reserve judgement and keep schtum, rather than write off a bunch of good people with professional integrity.

There is a load of crap in the IT Rec space, and there is a load of crap in the IT Contractor space - lets not by niave and write off the good ones eh Chaps

Cheers

ps, I really need some good Recruiters for our London office....get in touch if you want to chat Chaps

Edited by Mosi on Sunday 6th January 17:06

[Bruce Lee]

Mosi said:

Hi DaveR, how you doing mate...call me this week if you are focussed on moving on, I will get my people to give you some pref treatment matey

anyway...here we go again!

I run/own an IT/Tech recruitment group with 1200+ Contractors on assignment, therefore can probably add a valid comment or two here.

Firstly, because the industry has been so paranoid about staffing business' margins over the years (rather than service level and delivery), margins are at such a low level these days that many staffing business' cannot afford to deploy decent recruiters onto certain accounts (nor would any half decent recruiter want to work on accs where commission is nigh impossible to earn!), so do bear in mind that more often than not a jobseeker will have to deal with nothing more than a low level resource/process jockey on c£15k p/a. Both sides of the industry (both Client & Contractor) have forced this situation, dont expect the best when there is hardly anything in the middle to work with.

Secondly, bear in mind that Clients often REALLY dick staffing business' around, for every job that comes good we spend a lot of time working on activities that goes nowhere.

Thirdly, YES! of course we are middle men trying to match buyers & sellers. We broker skills for a living for Gods sake - thats the whole bloomin business model! If we werent, we'd become 'Consultancies' aka Body Shops....not unlike many of you Contractors have become over the years...the margins are horrendous in this sector (30-50%+) - for offering pretty much the same service!

I could go on about the numerous court cases I am having to deal with currently, where 'Contractors' have forged timesheets fraudulently to obtain money from us illegally etc, but rather than write off the whole contracting community I will reserve judgement and keep schtum, rather than write off a bunch of good people with professional integrity.

There is a load of crap in the IT Rec space, and there is a load of crap in the IT Contractor space - lets not by niave and write off the good ones eh Chaps

Cheers

ps, I really need some good Recruiters for our London office....get in touch if you want to chat Chaps


Might know someone for you, which brand are you guy's?

Edited by Mosi on Sunday 6th January 17:06

[Mosi]

Bruce, I'll sort you out if we take anyone on that we take on. email me, and we can talk offline (I dont want a flame war going on on here if poss). Cheers.

[_daveR]

Hi Mosi, I'll drop you a line this week mate.

I think we all need to keep in mind that contractors/agencies are no different to any other profession/industry. You get good eggs and bad ones.

From stories I've heard I found a good egg with my current agency. They understand (enough) about the industry and technologies and pay on time etc. It makes me laugh when I get a call from an agent and then I have to explain the job spec to them!

[Bruce Lee]

Dave R, just out of interest?

What's your skill set?

[bga]

Mosi said:

Thirdly, YES! of course we are middle men trying to match buyers & sellers. We broker skills for a living for Gods sake - thats the whole bloomin business model! If we werent, we'd become 'Consultancies' aka Body Shops....not unlike many of you Contractors have become over the years...the margins are horrendous in this sector (30-50%+) - for offering pretty much the same service!

Having no responsibility for actually delivering any work is a pretty major difference from consultancy work.

Providing CV's and then passing on responsibility for vetting the candidate to the client is not exactly a high risk operation and accordingly cannot be expected to yield the same sort of margins as a consultancy who is usually bearing significantly more risk.

[Mosi]

bga said:

Having no responsibility for actually delivering any work is a pretty major difference from consultancy work.

Providing CV's and then passing on responsibility for vetting the candidate to the client is not exactly a high risk operation and accordingly cannot be expected to yield the same sort of margins as a consultancy who is usually bearing significantly more risk.

I know of at least two dozen 'body shops' that offer no more value from a delivery perspective than any staffing business does. But they charge £1500 per day for the same person that we can supply for £750pd (often these companies buy contractors from us at £750pd and charge them straight on without even meeting them at £1500pd!) - without naming names, we often supply these people to global SI's. More often than not, the staffing business makes a damn site less than the 'credible' consultancy supplyng them.

[bga]

Mosi said:

bga said:

Having no responsibility for actually delivering any work is a pretty major difference from consultancy work.

Providing CV's and then passing on responsibility for vetting the candidate to the client is not exactly a high risk operation and accordingly cannot be expected to yield the same sort of margins as a consultancy who is usually bearing significantly more risk.

I know of at least two dozen 'body shops' that offer no more value from a delivery perspective than any staffing business does. But they charge £1500 per day for the same person that we can supply for £750pd (often these companies buy contractors from us at £750pd and charge them straight on without even meeting them at £1500pd!) - without naming names, we often supply these people to global SI's. More often than not, the staffing business makes a damn site less than the 'credible' consultancy supplyng them.

The difference is that those SI's are taking the risk of using that candidate. They interview and provide their own validation of the candidate prior to putting them onto a job that they are contracted to deliver.

If the resource is crap they they will usually have to fix the problem or suffer penalties. I can see both sides of it, my business does consultancy and has straight staffing agreements with a few SI's and there is considerably less risk in providing CV's and taking a cut than there is in delivering the work ourselves. As a result I will expect a far higher margin if I am contracted to deliver a project than I would for introducing a candidate (albeit one that I have technically interviewed).

Some clients will use the cheaper (but often better IMO) option of using contractors. Some prefer to manage their risk by using the SI's and paying rather more for the peace of mind that someone else is going to share the risk financially.

This isn't a go at the recruitment industry, the risk/reward ratio is (IMO) correctly balanced towards those that have responsibility for actually doing the work. I would love it if I could get the same margin for someone I have staffed that I would get for one of my own jobs.

[Bruce Lee]

One other quick point............No one ever makes candidates or client's use recruiters.

[Bruce Lee]

Oh and the service we offer candidates is FREE.

[bga]

Bruce Lee said:

One other quick point............No one ever makes candidates or client's use recruiters.

absolutely not, if there wasn't a need, the businesses wouldn't be there. It goes back to the well worn problem of the decent recruiters being carrying the stigma of by the large number of the less than honest individuals who share the trade.