Gone very quiet
Discussion
Digga said:
Timetoleave said:
Ebike sales / cafe here. After 12 years is selling very expensive, high end bikes I really can not see where the next sale is coming from. As you’ll all probably know the big 4 global manufacturers are in a lot of trouble - Trek announcing 10% right sizing yesterday, Specialized cutting prices by 40% and stories of containers being offloaded at sea / landfills in an effort to save warehousing costs. I can’t see anybody finding the cash to buy a bike anytime soon. Cafe on the other hand is booming !
Ebikes, in my eyes, were very briefly the latest wheeze for the bike industry to evolve the product to rinse more from the consumer.Let me justify that comment. I have an excellent, custom built Nicolai 160/150mm travel frame which, with an angle headset, is almost as good as any new enduro bike, bar the slightly to high/flat top tube. So I have not changed that in 8 years, just refreshed bearings. Once. IMHO a lot of 'advances' in bike tech are merely reinventing the wheel (literally in case of 27.5, 29, and the fat fad) and only a few are really useful. Dropper posts and cable-less shifting being two of the latter.
The cost of an ebike was exorbitant. For what is essentially the addition of a battery and motor. Nothing particularly high tech. Bike firms will have been making hefty margins. That is not to say ebikes are toss - I am on my second Specialized - but rather that bike firms never had it so good. And now they don't.
TX.
The thing to bear in mind with e-bikes is they are by definition - in the vast majority of cases - sold to non cyclists. This is one of the issues we face. E-bikers do not buy the new season colour / design unlike us legacy cyclists. It’s our hobby, our passion - like shooting , skiing, drinking or whatever you spend your cash on. E-bikes hate riding on the public roads. They need cycle lanes / bridleway, good weather and 100% confidence in the contraption ! I’m sure we’ll sell some bikes this year if it warms up. But nothing like the volumes we saw 2015-2020. Like mtbs in the 1990s - every garage in the uk has at least 2 e-bikes cowering next to the skateboards, broken wardrobes and detritus of modern living !
Edited by Timetoleave on Thursday 7th March 11:55
Edited by Timetoleave on Thursday 7th March 11:56
Timetoleave said:
The thing to bear in mind with e-bikes is they are by definition - in the vast majority of cases - sold to non cyclists. This is one of the issues we face. E-bikers do not buy the new season colour / design unlike us legacy cyclists. It’s our hobby, our passion - like shooting , skiing, drinking or whatever you spend your cash on. E-bikes hate riding on the public roads. They need cycle lanes / bridleway, good weather and 100% confidence in the contraption ! I’m sure we’ll sell some bikes this year if it warms up. But nothing like the volumes we saw 2015-2020. Like mtbs in the 1990s - every garage in the uk has at least 2 e-bikes cowering next to the skateboards, broken wardrobes and detritus of modern living !
I can testify to that... I'm currently in my place in Portugal and I have an e-bike in the garage. I bought it to ride in to town on sunny Sundays when I fancied a few beers, great idea in theory. In reality I just take an uber for 5 euros as actually riding it on the roads is frightening.
President Merkin said:
It's just not true an e bike is a normal bike with a motor & battery bolted on. They're entirely different designs from non powered equivalents. The pricing is one thing, wilfully mischaracterising them is another.
There's really not that much difference between an emtb and an analogue mtb. Frame changes to accommodate the electricery, but all components are exactly the same, both on lightweight/torque and full fat. I know I have owned and ridden various.You look at specialist frame builders like Nicolai and they have been building non-electric mtbs with bottom bracket mounted pinion gearboxes for ages. There is no gian leap.
I should add, emtbs are utterly superb. Game changing even. Within our riding group, shorter local rides get done faster, especially the climbs and, within whatever window 1, 2 or 3 hours, we can go further and get more trails done. When we venture further afield to the Lakes or Scotland, the long days on the hill are way better. However, bar the motor and batteries, the bikes are essentially just bikes.
Frimley111R said:
I can hardly imagine a harder thing to sell when times are tough than an e-bike. I guess a lot of people may either have one already or have a normal bike which will suffice for now.
Mate's just bought one last week. Bascially upgraded frm an earlier Levo turbo to the latest generation. they do sell, but not in pandemic numbers.He's a very good rider and ride frequently, so he's in the 'enthusiast' camp and also realises nothing lasts forever and you need to renew every few years.
It's a circular firing squad. You can't sell new ebikes, so you discount them heavily. In turn, that kills the 2nd hand market & most people looking to upgrade need to sell their bike to buy a new one...
As for the differences, the bike is the frame. Components are usually third party bolt ons. But the frame defines the bike. If you have to build a different frame to create an ebike, then there is where a good proportion of your costs are going. They might not look that different but they are different & that's enough.
As for the differences, the bike is the frame. Components are usually third party bolt ons. But the frame defines the bike. If you have to build a different frame to create an ebike, then there is where a good proportion of your costs are going. They might not look that different but they are different & that's enough.
Digga said:
Louis Balfour said:
I don’t altogether agree.
The mass market for suits has been reduced to weddings and funerals. But the market for bespoke and made to measure suits globally is I think fairly healthy.
In addition to which, if you follow what is happening in the fashion world, tailoring is making a comeback. Notably oversize, but tailoring nonetheless.
Very niche though isn't it? And the superrich are surprisingly adept and intent on picking peanuts out of poo. Like the sales tax, for example.The mass market for suits has been reduced to weddings and funerals. But the market for bespoke and made to measure suits globally is I think fairly healthy.
In addition to which, if you follow what is happening in the fashion world, tailoring is making a comeback. Notably oversize, but tailoring nonetheless.
They don't get rich by giving it away.
The point was, though, the loss of tax free shopping is negatively impacting the expensive shops in London.
President Merkin said:
It's a circular firing squad. You can't sell new ebikes, so you discount them heavily. In turn, that kills the 2nd hand market & most people looking to upgrade need to sell their bike to buy a new one...
As for the differences, the bike is the frame. Components are usually third party bolt ons. But the frame defines the bike. If you have to build a different frame to create an ebike, then there is where a good proportion of your costs are going. They might not look that different but they are different & that's enough.
Not different enough to justify the huge cost differential that all of the larger manufacturers were (but no longer) charging though. They already make different frames for different types of mtb and travels and a battery and a motor - how much does a decent power tool with spare batteries cost? It is not four figures.As for the differences, the bike is the frame. Components are usually third party bolt ons. But the frame defines the bike. If you have to build a different frame to create an ebike, then there is where a good proportion of your costs are going. They might not look that different but they are different & that's enough.
I'm not privy to the development costs involved in designing motors, batteries & control systems but I would bet it's not insignificant. I'm not completely disagreeing that pricing has been excessive on ebikes. On the other hand, if you were a brand & knew your customers would pay £6k for a bike, why would you charge £4k?
In the end, it's a market, they charge what they can & it either works or it doesn't. I would suggest the ebike market which ultimately is a luxury one, has genuinely been buffeted by recent head winds. If there is any blame, it's on the brands for failing to spot what was coming down the tracks but they're hardly unique in that respect.
In the end, it's a market, they charge what they can & it either works or it doesn't. I would suggest the ebike market which ultimately is a luxury one, has genuinely been buffeted by recent head winds. If there is any blame, it's on the brands for failing to spot what was coming down the tracks but they're hardly unique in that respect.
I was in our local Mini / BMW dealership today. It's a very, very big place.
There was staff everywhere, giving me welcoming smiles. I was, however, the only non-staff there and I was only passing through to the body shop.
It was utterly dead.
I left site trying to reconcile the massive overheads of a place like that and the volume of sales I suspect they are doing. I think BMW has to be one of the marques most in trouble at the moment, as the aspirational middle class tighten their belts.
There was staff everywhere, giving me welcoming smiles. I was, however, the only non-staff there and I was only passing through to the body shop.
It was utterly dead.
I left site trying to reconcile the massive overheads of a place like that and the volume of sales I suspect they are doing. I think BMW has to be one of the marques most in trouble at the moment, as the aspirational middle class tighten their belts.
Louis Balfour said:
I was in our local Mini / BMW dealership today. It's a very, very big place.
There was staff everywhere, giving me welcoming smiles. I was, however, the only non-staff there and I was only passing through to the body shop.
It was utterly dead.
I left site trying to reconcile the massive overheads of a place like that and the volume of sales I suspect they are doing. I think BMW has to be one of the marques most in trouble at the moment, as the aspirational middle class tighten their belts.
Especially as M goes to E - I can't believe many customers will buy in to it.There was staff everywhere, giving me welcoming smiles. I was, however, the only non-staff there and I was only passing through to the body shop.
It was utterly dead.
I left site trying to reconcile the massive overheads of a place like that and the volume of sales I suspect they are doing. I think BMW has to be one of the marques most in trouble at the moment, as the aspirational middle class tighten their belts.
TX.
Louis Balfour said:
I was in our local Mini / BMW dealership today. It's a very, very big place.
There was staff everywhere, giving me welcoming smiles. I was, however, the only non-staff there and I was only passing through to the body shop.
It was utterly dead.
I left site trying to reconcile the massive overheads of a place like that and the volume of sales I suspect they are doing. I think BMW has to be one of the marques most in trouble at the moment, as the aspirational middle class tighten their belts.
Conversely, I was in a big Audi dealer last Friday afternoon and they seemed really busy. I was very surprised and it took a good 5 mins for me to be attended to by the dealership. However, how many were buying anything I don't know but I didn't get the impression many customers were there to buy.There was staff everywhere, giving me welcoming smiles. I was, however, the only non-staff there and I was only passing through to the body shop.
It was utterly dead.
I left site trying to reconcile the massive overheads of a place like that and the volume of sales I suspect they are doing. I think BMW has to be one of the marques most in trouble at the moment, as the aspirational middle class tighten their belts.
Overheads - cost of buildings alone - are eyewatering at large car franchise dealers.
In other, sad, anecdotal news, my mate's closed down his small ,independent body shop. I am gutted. He was the only guy that the local Gyeon car detailer said he would trust with paintwork. None of the big insurance-linked places were anywhere near as good. Those on here into Porsches might know the famous (infamous?) Zanzipcup GT3, which he restored and re-painted for the owner after someone else had botched it.
In other, sad, anecdotal news, my mate's closed down his small ,independent body shop. I am gutted. He was the only guy that the local Gyeon car detailer said he would trust with paintwork. None of the big insurance-linked places were anywhere near as good. Those on here into Porsches might know the famous (infamous?) Zanzipcup GT3, which he restored and re-painted for the owner after someone else had botched it.
Frimley111R said:
Louis Balfour said:
I was in our local Mini / BMW dealership today. It's a very, very big place.
There was staff everywhere, giving me welcoming smiles. I was, however, the only non-staff there and I was only passing through to the body shop.
It was utterly dead.
I left site trying to reconcile the massive overheads of a place like that and the volume of sales I suspect they are doing. I think BMW has to be one of the marques most in trouble at the moment, as the aspirational middle class tighten their belts.
Conversely, I was in a big Audi dealer last Friday afternoon and they seemed really busy. I was very surprised and it took a good 5 mins for me to be attended to by the dealership. However, how many were buying anything I don't know but I didn't get the impression many customers were there to buy.There was staff everywhere, giving me welcoming smiles. I was, however, the only non-staff there and I was only passing through to the body shop.
It was utterly dead.
I left site trying to reconcile the massive overheads of a place like that and the volume of sales I suspect they are doing. I think BMW has to be one of the marques most in trouble at the moment, as the aspirational middle class tighten their belts.
Digga said:
Overheads - cost of buildings alone - are eyewatering at large car franchise dealers.
In other, sad, anecdotal news, my mate's closed down his small ,independent body shop. I am gutted. He was the only guy that the local Gyeon car detailer said he would trust with paintwork. None of the big insurance-linked places were anywhere near as good. Those on here into Porsches might know the famous (infamous?) Zanzipcup GT3, which he restored and re-painted for the owner after someone else had botched it.
I find this astonishing. Body shops are a rare breed these days and can pretty much charge what they want! The ones I use have months of work stacked up we have to turn cars away that ned paint as we just can't get stuff done. In other, sad, anecdotal news, my mate's closed down his small ,independent body shop. I am gutted. He was the only guy that the local Gyeon car detailer said he would trust with paintwork. None of the big insurance-linked places were anywhere near as good. Those on here into Porsches might know the famous (infamous?) Zanzipcup GT3, which he restored and re-painted for the owner after someone else had botched it.
Terminator X said:
Louis Balfour said:
I was in our local Mini / BMW dealership today. It's a very, very big place.
There was staff everywhere, giving me welcoming smiles. I was, however, the only non-staff there and I was only passing through to the body shop.
It was utterly dead.
I left site trying to reconcile the massive overheads of a place like that and the volume of sales I suspect they are doing. I think BMW has to be one of the marques most in trouble at the moment, as the aspirational middle class tighten their belts.
Especially as M goes to E - I can't believe many customers will buy in to it.There was staff everywhere, giving me welcoming smiles. I was, however, the only non-staff there and I was only passing through to the body shop.
It was utterly dead.
I left site trying to reconcile the massive overheads of a place like that and the volume of sales I suspect they are doing. I think BMW has to be one of the marques most in trouble at the moment, as the aspirational middle class tighten their belts.
TX.
I could afford an iX but the styling offends me.
My TikTok generation son however thinks they are brilliant!
He however is worth about £100 after doing his Saturday job stacking shelves in the local Waitrose before going back to school on Mondays.
Gassing Station | Business | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff