Making tax digital
Discussion
Eric Mc said:
Not a sensible answer. The sender confirming something has been sent is no confirmation.
Will that stand up in court?
The recipient should be legally obliged to separately acknowledge receipt of any legal document - which is what a VAT return is.
It's disgraceful.
I'm afraid you're getting worked up about nothing. HMRC advises the third party software that it has received the return. It's as good as the old receipt from HMRC.Will that stand up in court?
The recipient should be legally obliged to separately acknowledge receipt of any legal document - which is what a VAT return is.
It's disgraceful.
Ham_and_Jam said:
Eric Mc said:
Not a sensible answer. The sender confirming something has been sent is no confirmation.
Will that stand up in court?
The recipient should be legally obliged to separately acknowledge receipt of any legal document - which is what a VAT return is.
It's disgraceful.
This is just getting silly.Will that stand up in court?
The recipient should be legally obliged to separately acknowledge receipt of any legal document - which is what a VAT return is.
It's disgraceful.
Submissions are easily verified on your online VAT account.
HMRC have set up a system where receipts are not sent directlty from them (for VAT submissions), but through a 3rd party, so any defence would be acceptable based on that the you had a receipt using the systems they had put in place.
Moreover, paying your VAT and submitting a VAT return are 2 x different things. I have spoke to HMRC a few times over the years regarding VAT, surprisingly they are very easy going and flexible, providing you pay them. Getting the odd return accidentally wrong or not on time, or even paying late are all fixable without ‘going to court’. This is really reserved for those who have no intention of paying what is due.
Let’s not mix up criminality and admin.
important bit is paying them the money.of course there is a receipt, the MTD API gives a response to the submission... we record it in our system after each submission, it is quite clear if the submission has succeeded or failed... 
of course, the software may not pass it on, but that doesn’t mean that it is not provided...
lots of folks on here who I assume have never actually coded to the MTD VAT API
of course, the software may not pass it on, but that doesn’t mean that it is not provided...lots of folks on here who I assume have never actually coded to the MTD VAT API
Edited by akirk on Sunday 30th August 17:56
akirk said:
of course there is a receipt, the MTD API gives a response to the submission... we record it in our system after each submission, it is quite clear if the submission has succeeded or failed... of course, the software may not -ass it on, but that doesn’t mean that it is not provided...
Exactly. of course, the software may not -ass it on, but that doesn’t mean that it is not provided...Here is the receipt confirmation page for a recent filing using TaxCalc VATFiler;
When submitting my return today the free software I am using (Avalara) brought up a message saying:
The MTD rules are changing from April 1 2021.
No cut and paste of data in excel linking to MTD filer
No manual adjustments of data between your accounting system and MTD filer.
Does this mean an end to the free Excel Add-Ins for handling MTD, anyone know?
The MTD rules are changing from April 1 2021.
No cut and paste of data in excel linking to MTD filer
No manual adjustments of data between your accounting system and MTD filer.
Does this mean an end to the free Excel Add-Ins for handling MTD, anyone know?
Dromedary66 said:
When submitting my return today the free software I am using (Avalara) brought up a message saying:
The MTD rules are changing from April 1 2021.
No cut and paste of data in excel linking to MTD filer
No manual adjustments of data between your accounting system and MTD filer.
Does this mean an end to the free Excel Add-Ins for handling MTD, anyone know?
No it doesn’t mean the end of Excel add-ins. An Excel sheet that references another Excel sheet to adjust box 1 to 9 figures is a digital link and is allowed.The MTD rules are changing from April 1 2021.
No cut and paste of data in excel linking to MTD filer
No manual adjustments of data between your accounting system and MTD filer.
Does this mean an end to the free Excel Add-Ins for handling MTD, anyone know?
A brief overview of our experience with MTD and the API:
2019:
We have finally ditched the API from our system to HMRC - every time we submit any call to their API / a return, things have changed sometimes without warning... giving errors. When we first started this two year ago, we expected it to be easy - transferring 9 figures (in fact fewer as some are derived), is really not a complex bit of coding - however, despite the fact that we write complex systems which plug into all sorts of APIs (we are doing some work with Zoom at the moment), the HMRC experience has been disproportionately frustrating when it really need not have been. To build a robust and simple approach was not complex, but for some reason it is being fiddled with continually - if we write into an API, a key aspect is the stability of that API and the need for our code to sit in the background and just work - this hasn't proved possible with HMRC, so we have ditched it and have just used TaxCalc to submit our latest return. Someone else can have the hassle - for £21 inc. VAT p/a it is a lot cheaper than having an internal developer waste time!
back to doing some more productive work!
2019:
akirk said:
It has been an interesting experience...
we signed up for the pilot
then signed up for the API
we wrote the code for our internal system to talk to their API and submit the figures digitally...
all went well and their digital team were fantastic in supporting the process...
they then had a conference call with us to see a test of our system before putting our 'app' live on their API
we then tried to submit last QTR's figures digitally only to find that our sign up for the pilot hadn't gone through!
so we will re-sign up in the next week or so and test again at the end of March
considering that we took the more complex route of writing our own link to the API - actually it is a very straightforward process - the software basically has steps for authorisation / gaining a valid token / checking which period is open (what obligations there are) / submitting the relevant figures / getting a confirmation reply
in reality - neat simple software with really good support from the relevant team - an approach more akin to a modern tech company, not HMRC - so to be applauded... I appreciate that there is a valid debate around whether it should happen or not (I think that it is inevitable that all accounting will go fully digital at some point) - but the actual implementation has been good as far as we can see...
2020:we signed up for the pilot
then signed up for the API
we wrote the code for our internal system to talk to their API and submit the figures digitally...
all went well and their digital team were fantastic in supporting the process...
they then had a conference call with us to see a test of our system before putting our 'app' live on their API
we then tried to submit last QTR's figures digitally only to find that our sign up for the pilot hadn't gone through!
so we will re-sign up in the next week or so and test again at the end of March
considering that we took the more complex route of writing our own link to the API - actually it is a very straightforward process - the software basically has steps for authorisation / gaining a valid token / checking which period is open (what obligations there are) / submitting the relevant figures / getting a confirmation reply
in reality - neat simple software with really good support from the relevant team - an approach more akin to a modern tech company, not HMRC - so to be applauded... I appreciate that there is a valid debate around whether it should happen or not (I think that it is inevitable that all accounting will go fully digital at some point) - but the actual implementation has been good as far as we can see...
akirk said:
We wrote our own API interface from our internal system to MTD VAT - we were one of the smallest companies who did it... simple conclusion - lovely people who were always helpful, dreadful coding and worse documentation - so much so that we will probably move to another method at some point...
HMRC should not be writing code!
and:HMRC should not be writing code!
akirk said:
I won’t specifically substantiate it as this thread is a business thread not a geek-fest but anyone who has been coding long enough and is used to working with APIs will instantly recognise how poor it is...
Spec. for system
API to transfer 9 figures (or fewer if happy to derive some!)
Really must be one of the simplest requirements ever seen - with an overly complex system which has had huge flaws in how it has been coded and in how it has been documented...
To write code for us to transfer 9 figures has taken a hugely disproportionate amount of time to the extent that I am not prepared to have the equivalent and no doubt much higher internal cost to write code for the new approach...
2021... but anyone who has been coding long enough and is used to working with APIs will instantly recognise how poor it is...Spec. for system
API to transfer 9 figures (or fewer if happy to derive some!)
Really must be one of the simplest requirements ever seen - with an overly complex system which has had huge flaws in how it has been coded and in how it has been documented...
To write code for us to transfer 9 figures has taken a hugely disproportionate amount of time to the extent that I am not prepared to have the equivalent and no doubt much higher internal cost to write code for the new approach...
We have finally ditched the API from our system to HMRC - every time we submit any call to their API / a return, things have changed sometimes without warning... giving errors. When we first started this two year ago, we expected it to be easy - transferring 9 figures (in fact fewer as some are derived), is really not a complex bit of coding - however, despite the fact that we write complex systems which plug into all sorts of APIs (we are doing some work with Zoom at the moment), the HMRC experience has been disproportionately frustrating when it really need not have been. To build a robust and simple approach was not complex, but for some reason it is being fiddled with continually - if we write into an API, a key aspect is the stability of that API and the need for our code to sit in the background and just work - this hasn't proved possible with HMRC, so we have ditched it and have just used TaxCalc to submit our latest return. Someone else can have the hassle - for £21 inc. VAT p/a it is a lot cheaper than having an internal developer waste time!
back to doing some more productive work!
akirk said:
2021...
We have finally ditched the API from our system to HMRC - every time we submit any call to their API / a return, things have changed sometimes without warning... giving errors. When we first started this two year ago, we expected it to be easy - transferring 9 figures (in fact fewer as some are derived), is really not a complex bit of coding - however, despite the fact that we write complex systems which plug into all sorts of APIs (we are doing some work with Zoom at the moment), the HMRC experience has been disproportionately frustrating when it really need not have been. To build a robust and simple approach was not complex, but for some reason it is being fiddled with continually - if we write into an API, a key aspect is the stability of that API and the need for our code to sit in the background and just work - this hasn't proved possible with HMRC, so we have ditched it and have just used TaxCalc to submit our latest return. Someone else can have the hassle - for £21 inc. VAT p/a it is a lot cheaper than having an internal developer waste time!
back to doing some more productive work!
It's the anti fraud headers which are a pain in the bum. We have finally ditched the API from our system to HMRC - every time we submit any call to their API / a return, things have changed sometimes without warning... giving errors. When we first started this two year ago, we expected it to be easy - transferring 9 figures (in fact fewer as some are derived), is really not a complex bit of coding - however, despite the fact that we write complex systems which plug into all sorts of APIs (we are doing some work with Zoom at the moment), the HMRC experience has been disproportionately frustrating when it really need not have been. To build a robust and simple approach was not complex, but for some reason it is being fiddled with continually - if we write into an API, a key aspect is the stability of that API and the need for our code to sit in the background and just work - this hasn't proved possible with HMRC, so we have ditched it and have just used TaxCalc to submit our latest return. Someone else can have the hassle - for £21 inc. VAT p/a it is a lot cheaper than having an internal developer waste time!
back to doing some more productive work!
akirk said:
....so we have ditched it and have just used TaxCalc to submit our latest return. Someone else can have the hassle - for £21 inc. VAT p/a it is a lot cheaper than having an internal developer waste time!
I had a feeling my £21 spent renewing with TaxCalc in January this year probably continued to represent a decent solution. rockin said:
akirk said:
....so we have ditched it and have just used TaxCalc to submit our latest return. Someone else can have the hassle - for £21 inc. VAT p/a it is a lot cheaper than having an internal developer waste time!
I had a feeling my £21 spent renewing with TaxCalc in January this year probably continued to represent a decent solution. MKnight702 said:
akirk said:
I would agree - when it all started, the API and code was simple - but increasingly it has become disorganised and chaotic...
Who would have thought that Public Sector IT projects would devolve into a horrible mess, I'm shocked I tell you.For over 20 years I've been filling out a self assessment on paper for a part time business, along with P60 details from a PAYE job.
2 years ago I went fully self employed, giving up my PAYE job.
I also get a couple of company pensions. I'm 64 next month.
For 2019/20, my income was about 60% from self employment profit, 40% from pensions - less than £18k total. Self assessment filed online.
I've just made up my books for 2020/21, and with the covid restrictions, self employment income has dropped significantly, so now 60% pension, total income down to £14k.
With non-VAT sole traders having to file with MTD from the tax period starting on or after April 2023, I thought I'd better start exploring my options.
The first option would be to retire properly 6 weeks before my 66th birthday, then I wouldn't have to worry about it.
Next option would be to pay someone else to do it for me. I've never had to do this before, and it seems like an unnecessary expense considering how much I'm actually earning from the business.
Third option would be to computerise my accounts and get some suitable software.
I currently just keep a mileage log book and claim the 45p a mile.
I keep a pile of receipts for all my outgoings - supplier invoices, insurance, postage receipts. This is about 70 pieces of paper for the year.
I keep a pile of copies of my customer invoices on paper, around 150 pieces of paper.
Consolidating all the paperwork into a ledger takes me 2 or 3 hours, once a year. Filling out the online assessment takes about an hour by the time I've gathered together all the paperwork.
Looking on the government website just now, I see the plan is to make sole traders use MTD if their business INCOME is over £10k p.a.
Do they mean gross income, or profit after outgoings and allowable expenses?
If they mean profit, then I'd likely be below the MTD threshold, so I could carry on just filing online once a year?
If they mean gross income, then I'd have to use MTD.
They say that records should be kept electronically.
Does this mean that I would have to scan and keep digital images of paper-only receipts, like proof of postage receipts from the Post Office?
Would I also have to keep local copies of supplier invoices too?
I settle all supplier invoices at the time of ordering, and most of my customers pay me by cheque or bank transfer on delivery/collection.
I'm not VAT registered.
2 years ago I went fully self employed, giving up my PAYE job.
I also get a couple of company pensions. I'm 64 next month.
For 2019/20, my income was about 60% from self employment profit, 40% from pensions - less than £18k total. Self assessment filed online.
I've just made up my books for 2020/21, and with the covid restrictions, self employment income has dropped significantly, so now 60% pension, total income down to £14k.
With non-VAT sole traders having to file with MTD from the tax period starting on or after April 2023, I thought I'd better start exploring my options.
The first option would be to retire properly 6 weeks before my 66th birthday, then I wouldn't have to worry about it.
Next option would be to pay someone else to do it for me. I've never had to do this before, and it seems like an unnecessary expense considering how much I'm actually earning from the business.
Third option would be to computerise my accounts and get some suitable software.
I currently just keep a mileage log book and claim the 45p a mile.
I keep a pile of receipts for all my outgoings - supplier invoices, insurance, postage receipts. This is about 70 pieces of paper for the year.
I keep a pile of copies of my customer invoices on paper, around 150 pieces of paper.
Consolidating all the paperwork into a ledger takes me 2 or 3 hours, once a year. Filling out the online assessment takes about an hour by the time I've gathered together all the paperwork.
Looking on the government website just now, I see the plan is to make sole traders use MTD if their business INCOME is over £10k p.a.
Do they mean gross income, or profit after outgoings and allowable expenses?
If they mean profit, then I'd likely be below the MTD threshold, so I could carry on just filing online once a year?
If they mean gross income, then I'd have to use MTD.
They say that records should be kept electronically.
Does this mean that I would have to scan and keep digital images of paper-only receipts, like proof of postage receipts from the Post Office?
Would I also have to keep local copies of supplier invoices too?
I settle all supplier invoices at the time of ordering, and most of my customers pay me by cheque or bank transfer on delivery/collection.
I'm not VAT registered.
Eric Mc said:
Gross income i.e. sales (not profit).
It's absolutely nonsensical.
Accounting bodies argued that MTD was excessive for businesses with turnovers under the VAT registration threshold i.e., £85,000.
HMRC didn't want to know.
Thanks Eric.It's absolutely nonsensical.
Accounting bodies argued that MTD was excessive for businesses with turnovers under the VAT registration threshold i.e., £85,000.
HMRC didn't want to know.
It does seem a bit pointless. I guess I could stop doing all trade work, and go part time, to keep under the threshold.
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