Weapons-grade home WiFi suggestions
Discussion
dmsims said:
In the real world of a domestic setting that's just utter nonsene.
Most people won't notice and don't care
You think ? Anybody into gaming will notice a massive difference and why slow down and spoil your wifi experience when there is another possibly cheaper option that will work way, way better ? Always start with the solution with the best outcome, not the worst.Most people won't notice and don't care
I can see I'd not be employing you in an IT business
Some very minor clarifications
APs can forcibly (not just encourage) disconnect when conditions (typically signal strength) are met.
In terms of moving to another system, its how easy things are to diagnose and fix when they don't work or behave as expected that matters, worth arranging for the vendor to be on-call during transition if you don't have on-site expertise.
ecs0set said:
Still lots of ambiguity over the term "mesh", even in the original request of "I just want 2 or more APs that connect via ethernet with poe back to the router and mesh together".
Consumer kit bastardises the terms but IMHO, multiple APs with a wired backhaul, shared SSID and centralised management is not a mesh! In this definition, "mesh" only makes sense with dynamically managed wireless backhaul.
Backhaul can include wired, it doesn't have to be wireless, for example I know you can properly mesh together many ASUS routers through a wired network (and still have WiFi available as a lower priority option), the key is that its dynamic and the routers discover and share information as mesh nodes.Consumer kit bastardises the terms but IMHO, multiple APs with a wired backhaul, shared SSID and centralised management is not a mesh! In this definition, "mesh" only makes sense with dynamically managed wireless backhaul.
ecs0set said:
I'm no expert but I also follow the assertion that devices choose to roam (and demonstrably can do so, not sure what's up with your setup V8RAW?), the APs (mesh or otherwise) only encourage them to do so.
See https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/basics/wireless-ba...
Android tends to be very sticky with WiFi networks compared to iPhones/iPads (have a mixture in our household)See https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/basics/wireless-ba...
APs can forcibly (not just encourage) disconnect when conditions (typically signal strength) are met.
ecs0set said:
So for jimmyjimjim, a Wi-Fi system with multiple APs, wired backhaul, shared SSID and centralised management is the same whether it's called "mesh" or if it's a Unifi/Meraki system. You are correct that a consumer system may be simpler to setup and manage, but at the cost of some configurability (which may not be important to you). Personally, I don't see that moving to another system is that much more effort than discovery and reprovisioning the existing Unifi AP (ISTR there is a Windows app which can help discovery).
With a low number of nodes its easy to end up with a partially/poorly connected mesh that performs far worse than "a Wi-Fi system with multiple APs, wired backhaul, shared SSID and centralised management".In terms of moving to another system, its how easy things are to diagnose and fix when they don't work or behave as expected that matters, worth arranging for the vendor to be on-call during transition if you don't have on-site expertise.
ecs0set said:
If any of you ARE experts and are confident this is incorrect, please let me know - I'm about to buy 50k worth of Meraki kit for work! 
Think you are safe, definitely in the right ballpark (but my experience is Cisco switches and firewalls, so don't trust me too much), good luck seveb said:
The best option is to use ethernet between mid range access points which haver sufficient horsepower to support multiple users, streaming etc. This guarantees you all of the legal wifi channels will be available to you and you have as near as unlimited 'backhaul' to your router and the internet. This is always the correct answer to the wifi problem.... mesh is always the wrong answer.
Mesh is to wifi what fiberglass filler and Halfords rattle cans is to car restoration.
I should have gone with a longer answer. Mesh seems to be used as a shorthand to describe different features.Mesh is to wifi what fiberglass filler and Halfords rattle cans is to car restoration.
Some use it to say "wireless selfconfigured backhaul", some use it to say the system has the logic to deliberately "encourage" clients to move to the best AP in a controlled fashion, avoiding those painful experiences where the client hangs on to a distant AP in an unhelpful fashion. It is perfectly possible to buy equipment that does one but not the other.
I would like a system with enough smarts to do that managed client disassociation, and to permit fast association (ideally 802.11r) to the next AP (so no need to redo DHCP etc), and I'd prefer to have a wired backhaul for performance.
With WiFi 6E the need for a wired backhaul in many domestic scale installs should be significantly reduced, as it offers a large no of extra channels, removing the desperate shortage of available legal wifi channels, but I'm not aware of any mesh products on the market offering it yet.
dmsims said:
In the real world of a domestic setting that's just utter nonsene.
Most people won't notice and don't care
ThisMost people won't notice and don't care
I had a s
tty Virgin router that occasionally gave me decent wifi in the kitchenSuddenly full time WFH for both of us and it wasn't sustainable
£130 on a "mesh" system (I neither know nor really care what it does) means I have strong WiFi everywhere, I have music streaming, video calls etc anywhere in the house for both of us with zero stuttering or dropping and my Xbox and TV etc are hooked up via an ethernet switch
Oh and the total time researching, buying setting up and leaving alone ever since is probably under 2 hours
It just works
seveb said:
You think ? Anybody into gaming will notice a massive difference and why slow down and spoil your wifi experience when there is another possibly cheaper option that will work way, way better ? Always start with the solution with the best outcome, not the worst.
I can see I'd not be employing you in an IT business
If you're gaming you won't be using Wifi, I definitely wouln't be employing you I can see I'd not be employing you in an IT business
jimmyjimjim said:
Standalone; see comment above.
If it's standalone, I don't think you need to do anything with it - leave it as is. If you had chosen to add another Unifi AP you'd plug that in, install the app and then just configure it with the same SSID / security settings and a different set of wifi channels and off you'd go - they'd work as two independent APs, but any clients would still be able to connect to either AP and roam between them with no issues as long as the wireless SSID and security were the same between them.anonymous said:
[redacted]
Sorry haven't read the whole thread, but I have just done exactly this to sort issues relating to WIFI range from a Superhub 3.0.I used TP Link Deco M5 mesh and now get 180-200Mpbs throughout the property (compared to 10-15Mpbs with zero drop out, no backhaul installed (yet, although I see no reason to just now)
Edited by MattyD803 on Thursday 11th February 15:02
random_username said:
jimmyjimjim said:
Standalone; see comment above.
If it's standalone, I don't think you need to do anything with it - leave it as is. If you had chosen to add another Unifi AP you'd plug that in, install the app and then just configure it with the same SSID / security settings and a different set of wifi channels and off you'd go - they'd work as two independent APs, but any clients would still be able to connect to either AP and roam between them with no issues as long as the wireless SSID and security were the same between them.I also considered having a specific AP on a different SSID for the iffy area - but don't fancy the idea of managing it/my wife.
So it was do it properly, with unifi or something else. I use very few features that would justify expanding the unifi network, so it came down to cost, simplicity, ease of support, reliability, and coverage.
While I have nothing but the upmost praise for unifi and reliability (and subsequent lack of need for support), other solutions were better in other areas. It remains to be seen if the Deco will offer the coverage I need in the areas I want - but it's a cheap way of testing that. Both in financial terms, and equally importantly, in time.
ecs0set said:
So for jimmyjimjim, a Wi-Fi system with multiple APs, wired backhaul, shared SSID and centralised management is the same whether it's called "mesh" or if it's a Unifi/Meraki system. You are correct that a consumer system may be simpler to setup and manage, but at the cost of some configurability (which may not be important to you). Personally, I don't see that moving to another system is that much more effort than discovery and reprovisioning the existing Unifi AP (ISTR there is a Windows app which can help discovery).
There would also have been a downtime with an irked wife while recovering and re-provisioning the UAP, as opposed to setting up a new system in parallel and switching over.I suspect the actual install time would be similar for both systems.
jimmyjimjim said:
I'd actually written a long reply to one of the comments above, but PH ate it. I did consider this (and have in the past), but considered it a bit iffy - considering the areas where signal is weak and coverage would overlap, handoffs would need to be good. Another reason I decided against sticking another UAP in; I've read a lot over the years here and in the ubiquiti forums regarding handover, and it being reluctant to let go - which would possibly be the worst thing - I potentially wouldn't gain anything.
I also considered having a specific AP on a different SSID for the iffy area - but don't fancy the idea of managing it/my wife.
So it was do it properly, with unifi or something else. I use very few features that would justify expanding the unifi network, so it came down to cost, simplicity, ease of support, reliability, and coverage.
While I have nothing but the upmost praise for unifi and reliability (and subsequent lack of need for support), other solutions were better in other areas. It remains to be seen if the Deco will offer the coverage I need in the areas I want - but it's a cheap way of testing that. Both in financial terms, and equally importantly, in time.
Even with Unifi, there's no 'handing off' between APs - it's either down to the client to choose to change to an AP with a stronger signal, and some are considerably more 'sticky' to a weaker signal rather than wanting to change, or it's up to the AP to 'forcibly disconnect' clients who go below a signal strength - which when I played with it meant that the client then spends several seconds searching for a new AP and reconnecting, and things like wifi calling would drop calls. I also considered having a specific AP on a different SSID for the iffy area - but don't fancy the idea of managing it/my wife.
So it was do it properly, with unifi or something else. I use very few features that would justify expanding the unifi network, so it came down to cost, simplicity, ease of support, reliability, and coverage.
While I have nothing but the upmost praise for unifi and reliability (and subsequent lack of need for support), other solutions were better in other areas. It remains to be seen if the Deco will offer the coverage I need in the areas I want - but it's a cheap way of testing that. Both in financial terms, and equally importantly, in time.
UI used to have 'zero handoff' which they dropped, because it meant all APs ran on the same channel, causing more issues than it solved.
I'm not sure about the newer systems sold as 'mesh' - if they have intelligent handoff between APs, I don't believe so.
ecs0set said:
Still lots of ambiguity over the term "mesh", even in the original request of "I just want 2 or more APs that connect via ethernet with poe back to the router and mesh together".
Consumer kit bastardises the terms but IMHO, multiple APs with a wired backhaul, shared SSID and centralised management is not a mesh! In this definition, "mesh" only makes sense with dynamically managed wireless backhaul.
I'm no expert but I also follow the assertion that devices choose to roam (and demonstrably can do so, not sure what's up with your setup V8RAW?), the APs (mesh or otherwise) only encourage them to do so.
See https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/basics/wireless-ba...
So for jimmyjimjim, a Wi-Fi system with multiple APs, wired backhaul, shared SSID and centralised management is the same whether it's called "mesh" or if it's a Unifi/Meraki system. You are correct that a consumer system may be simpler to setup and manage, but at the cost of some configurability (which may not be important to you). Personally, I don't see that moving to another system is that much more effort than discovery and reprovisioning the existing Unifi AP (ISTR there is a Windows app which can help discovery).
If any of you ARE experts and are confident this is incorrect, please let me know - I'm about to buy 50k worth of Meraki kit for work!
Your probably right about the ambiguity, but essentially I think the accepted idea for a Mesh Wifi is same SSID from every point and steering to handoff devices to the strongest point seamlessly. If it wont do that, its not a mesh in common wifi parlance.Consumer kit bastardises the terms but IMHO, multiple APs with a wired backhaul, shared SSID and centralised management is not a mesh! In this definition, "mesh" only makes sense with dynamically managed wireless backhaul.
I'm no expert but I also follow the assertion that devices choose to roam (and demonstrably can do so, not sure what's up with your setup V8RAW?), the APs (mesh or otherwise) only encourage them to do so.
See https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/basics/wireless-ba...
So for jimmyjimjim, a Wi-Fi system with multiple APs, wired backhaul, shared SSID and centralised management is the same whether it's called "mesh" or if it's a Unifi/Meraki system. You are correct that a consumer system may be simpler to setup and manage, but at the cost of some configurability (which may not be important to you). Personally, I don't see that moving to another system is that much more effort than discovery and reprovisioning the existing Unifi AP (ISTR there is a Windows app which can help discovery).
If any of you ARE experts and are confident this is incorrect, please let me know - I'm about to buy 50k worth of Meraki kit for work!
But yes, in networking a mesh can mean different things I suppose.
MattyD803 said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Sorry haven't read the whole thread, but I have just done exactly this to sort issues relating to WIFI range from a Superhub 3.0.I used TP Link Deco M5 mesh and now get 180-200Mpbs throughout the property (compared to 10-15Mpbs with zero drop out, no backhaul installed (yet, although I see no reason to just now)
Edited by MattyD803 on Thursday 11th February 15:02
I guess to your average punter, something like a Deco is weapons grade, indeed I work in a non technical capacity for a technical consultancy and its hugely popular amongst my peers
I know there is enterprise level kit that we have at work that will do all sorts of magical things but I suspect it really only appeals to a small sector
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Simplyif the remote access point you are connected to is giving you data at, say 300mbps, it must be receiving it at the same rate. So if its wireless is only capable of 600mbps you are maxed out.
If you had an ethernet backhaul or a separate wireless channel then you could get the full 600.
A really good wifi mesh is excellent if your mobile wifi connected device is really, err, mobile in that you can move from place to place and never know you are connecting to different access points.
But if its used in one place, a normal AP is just fine, or use a point to point radio down to ethernet.
Edited by Gary C on Thursday 11th February 15:56
Gary C said:
Your probably right about the ambiguity, but essentially I think the accepted idea for a Mesh Wifi is same SSID from every point and steering to handoff devices to the strongest point seamlessly. If it wont do that, its not a mesh in common wifi parlance.
But yes, in networking a mesh can mean different things I suppose.
You are probably correct, I think it's the common wifi parlance that I disagree with. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesh_networkingBut yes, in networking a mesh can mean different things I suppose.
Just don't get me started on "cloud"!
Those commenting that it doesn't matter, you are also correct. If it's working for you, that's all you really need. However, the thread is weapons-grade home WiFi, which for me is more M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank than a blunderbuss.
Edited by ecs0set on Thursday 11th February 16:05
Bottom line to all of this discussion of what is and isn't a mesh and wired v wireless backhaul is that in 99% of domestic situations, wired backhaul is never going to happen unless people use Homeplugs but let's not go there. So, for most domestic situations, the mesh is wireless apart from one node connected to the router (or a mesh router).
From there, the only difference is whether the kit has dedicated wireless backhaul frequencies. Most people will not know, care or notice. What they will notice is poor/lost connections all the time, that is far more intrusive to most domestic users than worrying about backhaul using bandwidth. Walk around Currys (in the dim and distant future when we have shops again) and see how many people (including the staff) even know what mesh backhaul is.
From there, the only difference is whether the kit has dedicated wireless backhaul frequencies. Most people will not know, care or notice. What they will notice is poor/lost connections all the time, that is far more intrusive to most domestic users than worrying about backhaul using bandwidth. Walk around Currys (in the dim and distant future when we have shops again) and see how many people (including the staff) even know what mesh backhaul is.
random_username said:
Even with Unifi, there's no 'handing off' between APs - it's either down to the client to choose to change to an AP with a stronger signal, and some are considerably more 'sticky' to a weaker signal rather than wanting to change, or it's up to the AP to 'forcibly disconnect' clients who go below a signal strength - which when I played with it meant that the client then spends several seconds searching for a new AP and reconnecting, and things like wifi calling would drop calls.
UI used to have 'zero handoff' which they dropped, because it meant all APs ran on the same channel, causing more issues than it solved.
I'm not sure about the newer systems sold as 'mesh' - if they have intelligent handoff between APs, I don't believe so.
It's the zero handoff I'm remembering.UI used to have 'zero handoff' which they dropped, because it meant all APs ran on the same channel, causing more issues than it solved.
I'm not sure about the newer systems sold as 'mesh' - if they have intelligent handoff between APs, I don't believe so.
TPlink say 'Deco units work together to form one unified network with one single SSID. Your phone or tablet automatically connects to the fastest Deco as you move through your home, creating a truly seamless Wi-Fi experience‡."
The caveat - ‡Clients need to support 802.11k/v/r and may require additional set up. Performance may vary depending on the client device.
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