Discussion
qube_TA said:
Disclaimers to stop them being sued however if I'm running Windows or Sun etc if there is a problem it's supported by the people that distribute it, if their patches or software cause problems then they'll fix it, it'll affect them if they don't. Community Linux' create patches n such out of the kindness of their heart as there's no agreement in place.
If I'm running a cluster with say SLES on it and it screws up as a result of a patch or something then I'll have Novell if needed on hand to get it back up and running ASAP, with a community distro you're on your own hoping that someone will look at your bug report sometime soon.
99.9% of the time you'd never need outside help but if you're pitching for say a £70K managed hosting contract with an SLA which will bite you if something goes wrong then it's reassuring to have that support behind you.
First some background; I've been working in IT for over 30 years. I've been a programmer, consultant, IT manager, Unix geek & IT Security dweeb, working in the City for the last 15 years. I've done real-time process control, TV airtime scheduling, machine aided translation and assorted front and back office dealing room stuff.If I'm running a cluster with say SLES on it and it screws up as a result of a patch or something then I'll have Novell if needed on hand to get it back up and running ASAP, with a community distro you're on your own hoping that someone will look at your bug report sometime soon.
99.9% of the time you'd never need outside help but if you're pitching for say a £70K managed hosting contract with an SLA which will bite you if something goes wrong then it's reassuring to have that support behind you.
And the point? All this cack about support is just that; cack. I've sat and watched my Windows Admin (who reported to me) wait 6 hours for someone at MS to answer the phone, to be told that what we wanted help with was no longer supported. I've called suppliers to be told all the techies are at a conference and won't be back for a week. Hell, I'm fighting with a supplier right now whose support staff don't speak English as a first language, don't work UK hours and take a day to turn round a support email. (No, they're not in India.)
The "but commercial software is supported" argument is a red herring. Yes, it may be supported, or at least that's what it says on the piece of paper as they take your money, but is that support worth diddley-squat? IME, it isn't. Providing your software hasn't been orphaned, Open Source is supported just as well, and mostly better than commercial stuff. And when was the last time you heard about a user suing a software supplier? IME, again, never.
Munter said:
Well I've just installed debian.
I think the screen res is changed via one of the menus at the top, or you can try ctrl alt + or ctrl alt -.I wouldn't bother updating the nvidia drivers for that card, the out of the box drivers work and you're not going to be playing games on that box. In my very limited experience compared to some on here, in debian the GUI is mainly used to open up lots and lots of terminal windows at the same time
qube_TA said:
cottonfoo said:
Groan I love it how folk pick and choose snippets of what someone says just so they can argue back.
This is getting off topic from the OP, I said that when dealing with non-technical customers who will pay you lots of money for a Linux solution you have to offer SLA's which are easier to back up if you're using enterprise Linux such as Redhat's RHEL or Novell's SLES. For a new user that's never used Linux before you wouldn't recommend Debian as it's too involved for someone who's never used it. Which is why I said from my point of view Debian is obsolete as Linux has moved on.
Yes I know Linux is the kernel not the software you're splitting hairs, you know each distro heavily patches the kernel to make their own, they're not all the same.
I'm not the arguing type This is getting off topic from the OP, I said that when dealing with non-technical customers who will pay you lots of money for a Linux solution you have to offer SLA's which are easier to back up if you're using enterprise Linux such as Redhat's RHEL or Novell's SLES. For a new user that's never used Linux before you wouldn't recommend Debian as it's too involved for someone who's never used it. Which is why I said from my point of view Debian is obsolete as Linux has moved on.
Yes I know Linux is the kernel not the software you're splitting hairs, you know each distro heavily patches the kernel to make their own, they're not all the same.
Debian isn't aimed toward the same demographic. Ubuntu is designed to be easy for first time users, Debian is for more experienced users that know exactly what they want to do with it who won't even need most of what would come with something like Ubuntu. That doesn't make it obsolete, just different.SneakyNeil said:
Munter said:
Well I've just installed debian.
I think the screen res is changed via one of the menus at the top, or you can try ctrl alt + or ctrl alt -.I wouldn't bother updating the nvidia drivers for that card, the out of the box drivers work and you're not going to be playing games on that box. In my very limited experience compared to some on here, in debian the GUI is mainly used to open up lots and lots of terminal windows at the same time
Munter might find that X hasn't detected diddly and is sat running VGA/SVGA or Vesa drivers.
ThePassenger said:
SneakyNeil said:
Munter said:
Well I've just installed debian.
I think the screen res is changed via one of the menus at the top, or you can try ctrl alt + or ctrl alt -.I wouldn't bother updating the nvidia drivers for that card, the out of the box drivers work and you're not going to be playing games on that box. In my very limited experience compared to some on here, in debian the GUI is mainly used to open up lots and lots of terminal windows at the same time
Munter might find that X hasn't detected diddly and is sat running VGA/SVGA or Vesa drivers.
Zumbruk said:
First some background; I've been working in IT for over 30 years. I've been a programmer, consultant, IT manager, Unix geek & IT Security dweeb, working in the City for the last 15 years. I've done real-time process control, TV airtime scheduling, machine aided translation and assorted front and back office dealing room stuff.
And the point? All this cack about support is just that; cack. I've sat and watched my Windows Admin (who reported to me) wait 6 hours for someone at MS to answer the phone, to be told that what we wanted help with was no longer supported. I've called suppliers to be told all the techies are at a conference and won't be back for a week. Hell, I'm fighting with a supplier right now whose support staff don't speak English as a first language, don't work UK hours and take a day to turn round a support email. (No, they're not in India.)
The "but commercial software is supported" argument is a red herring. Yes, it may be supported, or at least that's what it says on the piece of paper as they take your money, but is that support worth diddley-squat? IME, it isn't. Providing your software hasn't been orphaned, Open Source is supported just as well, and mostly better than commercial stuff. And when was the last time you heard about a user suing a software supplier? IME, again, never.
As you may already have read, I agree with all that, I've been in IT for 17 years I know where you're coming from. What I was saying is that when selling a managed/hosted platform to people a lot of them dismiss Linux because it's 'not managed', 'not supported', 'no vendor agreement in place', 'blah blah etc.' so they pay over the odds and opt for a MS solution that isn't as good. But when you have the Enterprise Linux's from Redhat & Novell and you have staff that are Redhat/SUSE certified then it's easier to offer the required assurances to get the contract in. And the point? All this cack about support is just that; cack. I've sat and watched my Windows Admin (who reported to me) wait 6 hours for someone at MS to answer the phone, to be told that what we wanted help with was no longer supported. I've called suppliers to be told all the techies are at a conference and won't be back for a week. Hell, I'm fighting with a supplier right now whose support staff don't speak English as a first language, don't work UK hours and take a day to turn round a support email. (No, they're not in India.)
The "but commercial software is supported" argument is a red herring. Yes, it may be supported, or at least that's what it says on the piece of paper as they take your money, but is that support worth diddley-squat? IME, it isn't. Providing your software hasn't been orphaned, Open Source is supported just as well, and mostly better than commercial stuff. And when was the last time you heard about a user suing a software supplier? IME, again, never.
It would be harder for me to sell them if I built systems on other distros, therefore the subscription costs for Enterprise Linux is IMO worth it.
But as I've said selling IT to a techie isn't easy, I wouldn't pay for all that if it was my system as I'd design, build & manage the system myself thus would only have to pay for hosting space.
qube_TA said:
Munter said:
Well I've just installed debian. Downloaded an ISO image wrote it onto CD and installed it onto the PII 350 we had kicking around. I've found it extreamly easy to use apt-get to install things not included on the ISO image that i needed to make the companies software work so I could play with it(sysstat etc).
As standard it's installed a gnome windows interface. Problem is it's in 640x480.... Now how do I change that. (As 90% of what i'm doing is through telnet it's not a big problem but damnit I want to change it!)
This is not as easy a selection as the ".run" files. Any hints as to which files to try?
LOL, you state that Debian was easy to install then state that it's not working properly and you don't know how to fix it!As standard it's installed a gnome windows interface. Problem is it's in 640x480.... Now how do I change that. (As 90% of what i'm doing is through telnet it's not a big problem but damnit I want to change it!)
This is not as easy a selection as the ".run" files. Any hints as to which files to try?
Where's my surprised face?
SneakyNeil said:
ThePassenger said:
SneakyNeil said:
Munter said:
Well I've just installed debian.
I think the screen res is changed via one of the menus at the top, or you can try ctrl alt + or ctrl alt -.I wouldn't bother updating the nvidia drivers for that card, the out of the box drivers work and you're not going to be playing games on that box. In my very limited experience compared to some on here, in debian the GUI is mainly used to open up lots and lots of terminal windows at the same time
Munter might find that X hasn't detected diddly and is sat running VGA/SVGA or Vesa drivers.
Thanks guys.
Edited by Munter on Sunday 5th August 10:32
Munter said:
SneakyNeil said:
ThePassenger said:
SneakyNeil said:
Munter said:
Well I've just installed debian.
I think the screen res is changed via one of the menus at the top, or you can try ctrl alt + or ctrl alt -.I wouldn't bother updating the nvidia drivers for that card, the out of the box drivers work and you're not going to be playing games on that box. In my very limited experience compared to some on here, in debian the GUI is mainly used to open up lots and lots of terminal windows at the same time
Munter might find that X hasn't detected diddly and is sat running VGA/SVGA or Vesa drivers.
Thanks guys.
Edited by Munter on Sunday 5th August 10:32
Munter said:
qube_TA said:
Munter said:
Well I've just installed debian. Downloaded an ISO image wrote it onto CD and installed it onto the PII 350 we had kicking around. I've found it extreamly easy to use apt-get to install things not included on the ISO image that i needed to make the companies software work so I could play with it(sysstat etc).
As standard it's installed a gnome windows interface. Problem is it's in 640x480.... Now how do I change that. (As 90% of what i'm doing is through telnet it's not a big problem but damnit I want to change it!)
This is not as easy a selection as the ".run" files. Any hints as to which files to try?
LOL, you state that Debian was easy to install then state that it's not working properly and you don't know how to fix it!As standard it's installed a gnome windows interface. Problem is it's in 640x480.... Now how do I change that. (As 90% of what i'm doing is through telnet it's not a big problem but damnit I want to change it!)
This is not as easy a selection as the ".run" files. Any hints as to which files to try?
Where's my surprised face?
SneakyNeil said:
The monitor type needs to be set appropriately to see higher resolutions, so its worth just double checking that as well.
Ah ha! Now we are onto something. Checking the xorg.conf I think we have a problem with it knowing what to do with my old (c:1999) 15 inch monitor.Section "Monitor"
Identifier "Generic Monitor"
Option "DPMS"
EndSection
What we are missing are the
HorizSync xx-xx
VertRefresh xx-xx
Any clues as to waht I might try there? I tried one lot and it blanked the screen. My suspicion is the HorizSync I was trying killed it.
cheers
DUH. I've been making this more complex than I needed too. If I use the X configuration tool from the command line I can select simple monitor setup. Tell it it's a 15" and it springs into life as 1024x768.
Wa hay. (p.s. web browsing on this old computer is rubbish!) Now wheres the games....
Wa hay. (p.s. web browsing on this old computer is rubbish!) Now wheres the games....
Munter said:
SneakyNeil said:
The monitor type needs to be set appropriately to see higher resolutions, so its worth just double checking that as well.
Ah ha! Now we are onto something. Checking the xorg.conf I think we have a problem with it knowing what to do with my old (c:1999) 15 inch monitor.Section "Monitor"
Identifier "Generic Monitor"
Option "DPMS"
EndSection
What we are missing are the
HorizSync xx-xx
VertRefresh xx-xx
Any clues as to waht I might try there? I tried one lot and it blanked the screen. My suspicion is the HorizSync I was trying killed it.
cheers
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