Computer based audio vs. dedicated CD transport?
Discussion
Curious for some 'computer type' opinions rather than purely audio people.
Lately as I'm sure most people are aware there has been an increase in the number of high end music servers, you know the sort of thing, rip CD to NAS/hard drive, stream it to hi-fi.
The likes of Linn and Naim are bringing out systems that cost a pretty substantial amount of money, Apple do a £60 Airport Express.
Both routes assume you already have a computer, and both routes rely on the same £20 ROM drive in the computer to do the ripping.
So, assuming you're ripping to lossless format, what is the benefit in spending thousands on a "high end" solution in sound terms (vs. nice integration and a professional interface)?
I can appreciate why different dedicated CD players may perform differently, different circuits, it's doing its thing in real-time etc. but when you get down to the level of sticking a disc in a computer, telling it "take as long as you like just make a bit perfect image" and then "now send those bits across the network or via this toslink cable" etc. I can't see why there should be a difference.
If I have a CD full of computer data (executables, spreadsheets etc.) a single mis-read bit would render it useless, yet nobody suggests using a high end power or network cable or a "pro quality" hard drive and so on.
Lately as I'm sure most people are aware there has been an increase in the number of high end music servers, you know the sort of thing, rip CD to NAS/hard drive, stream it to hi-fi.
The likes of Linn and Naim are bringing out systems that cost a pretty substantial amount of money, Apple do a £60 Airport Express.
Both routes assume you already have a computer, and both routes rely on the same £20 ROM drive in the computer to do the ripping.
So, assuming you're ripping to lossless format, what is the benefit in spending thousands on a "high end" solution in sound terms (vs. nice integration and a professional interface)?
I can appreciate why different dedicated CD players may perform differently, different circuits, it's doing its thing in real-time etc. but when you get down to the level of sticking a disc in a computer, telling it "take as long as you like just make a bit perfect image" and then "now send those bits across the network or via this toslink cable" etc. I can't see why there should be a difference.
If I have a CD full of computer data (executables, spreadsheets etc.) a single mis-read bit would render it useless, yet nobody suggests using a high end power or network cable or a "pro quality" hard drive and so on.
The Naim kit is quite a good example of what I'm trying to understand though.
Lots of automation and "lifestyle" features, but what makes it better than a Squeezebox/Airport Express at the music stuff, considering that with either it's still dependent on a $20 CD transport in your PC?
Lots of automation and "lifestyle" features, but what makes it better than a Squeezebox/Airport Express at the music stuff, considering that with either it's still dependent on a $20 CD transport in your PC?
Makes sense.
Specifically I was reading a thread about Meridian and whether or not they would jump on the bandwagon.
Of course nearly all Meridian kit already has DACs galore and optical inputs etc. so there was a question of whether if they came up with a high end solution, would there be any sonic benefits as (again) all you'd expect it to be doing beyond lifestyle/control stuff is shifting bits from PC/NAS/Mac to DAC.
It's a bit of a strange subject tbh, as it seems hard facts are thin on the ground, those who've spent thousands on a high end solution are sure it's better, those who've spent £60 on an Airport sound like they're simply poo-poohing the other end of the spectrum.
Specifically I was reading a thread about Meridian and whether or not they would jump on the bandwagon.
Of course nearly all Meridian kit already has DACs galore and optical inputs etc. so there was a question of whether if they came up with a high end solution, would there be any sonic benefits as (again) all you'd expect it to be doing beyond lifestyle/control stuff is shifting bits from PC/NAS/Mac to DAC.
It's a bit of a strange subject tbh, as it seems hard facts are thin on the ground, those who've spent thousands on a high end solution are sure it's better, those who've spent £60 on an Airport sound like they're simply poo-poohing the other end of the spectrum.
A very informative reply, very useful thanks.
I have to admit I still can't get my head around the technical side of how a £20 CD/DVD Rom transport, as found in a PC, is sufficient to deal with critical file and program data, yet a transport in a high end audio CD player is better?
Are you saying that is the case outright, or when it comes to real-time reading of CD's, which sounds feasible?
My own setup is an Airport Express into the optical input on a Meridian F80, so low end by many standards, but given Meridian's dependence on all things digital it's still a capable bit of kit.
I have to admit I still can't get my head around the technical side of how a £20 CD/DVD Rom transport, as found in a PC, is sufficient to deal with critical file and program data, yet a transport in a high end audio CD player is better?
Are you saying that is the case outright, or when it comes to real-time reading of CD's, which sounds feasible?
My own setup is an Airport Express into the optical input on a Meridian F80, so low end by many standards, but given Meridian's dependence on all things digital it's still a capable bit of kit.
clonmult said:
paddyhasneeds said:
I have to admit I still can't get my head around the technical side of how a £20 CD/DVD Rom transport, as found in a PC, is sufficient to deal with critical file and program data, yet a transport in a high end audio CD player is better?
Basically shows that spending thousands on dedicated transports is a load of bo**ocks. They do NOT do a better job of pulling the bits of the disc.alock said:
CD ROM drives ripping audio CD's are easy to test:
1. Get as many CD ROM drives as you can.
2. Rip a single CD to a WAV file several times on each drive.
3. Use as tool such as COMP (available from a Windows command window) to compare the extracted files at the bit level.
I've tried this before and EVERY drive I've used always returns EXACTLY the same WAV file. Therefore there are two possible conclusions:
1. All CD ROM drives produce a perfect RIP of audio data.
2. All CD ROM drives produce the same errors with every RIP.
I just cannot believe conclusion 2 is realistic.
I tried a similar thing using MAX on my Mac last week. I ripped a track off a CD using it's "Basic Ripper", the "Comparison Ripper" and "CDParanoia" rippers, and for all three did the rip with C2 and error correction on and off.1. Get as many CD ROM drives as you can.
2. Rip a single CD to a WAV file several times on each drive.
3. Use as tool such as COMP (available from a Windows command window) to compare the extracted files at the bit level.
I've tried this before and EVERY drive I've used always returns EXACTLY the same WAV file. Therefore there are two possible conclusions:
1. All CD ROM drives produce a perfect RIP of audio data.
2. All CD ROM drives produce the same errors with every RIP.
I just cannot believe conclusion 2 is realistic.
The resulting file was the same size in bytes every single time. I have to admit I didn't do any sort of content/checksum comparison but the exact same number of bytes was good enough for me.
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