withy engineering?
Discussion
I guess it depends on what you mean by 'competitively priced'.
You can always do an engine build 'on-the-cheap', but as with all things you get what you pay for. I've sometimes been asked "How cheap could you build me an engine?". My answer is "I can't". All the parts, which make up a significant part of the overall price, have a basic cost. Pistons, for example, cost around £150 for a set of Hepolite 21253 high-comp slippers. Of course, you could fit the low comp and weaker 21251 version, c.£50 a set, which are nowhere near as good and I would never touch them except, perhaps, for a Metro Van! Another example is whether the cam is timed-in accurately, to remove manufacturer's tolerances, of just set-up on the timing wheel marks.
If you are having a complete engine built you should renew everything, including doing a crank re-grind, a head re-build, re-bore and deck the block, skim the head face, fit all new oil pump, water pump, valves, valve guides, bearings, re-con the dizzy, fit and ream the new cam bearings, fit a new cam and followers, new timing chain (duplex conversion if necessary). Do at least two engine builds: an initial dummy build to check all dimensions plus a final build. Re-cut the valve seats, fit new valve springs, fit all new block/head studs, possibly a new rocker shaft,
The labour for this, including all stripping, cleaning, measuring, and reassembly is not likely to come to less than 37 hours if done properly. Cost that at a sensible hourly rate of, say, £30 per hour and see what you get. Then add all the parts at list, not forgetting the gaskets, and see what you now get. If the quoted prices from an engine builder is less than that figure he must be cutting corners, so beware.
Don't forget to have the gearbox checked out and certainly strip the diff out and fit a new diff pin and planet wheels as a minimum.
I once built a new engine for a Cooper 'S' with a lot of additional power (up from 75 to about 95 bhp) and the owner assured me the box was fine and that he didn't want to have it checked or any new bits fitted. Three weeks after having his engine fitted, run-in and rolling road set up, the old box failed. The increased power killed it off! It then cost him another lot of labour charges for removing the engine, stripping it out, and fitting a new s/c c/r box (adding about £1400 to his original bill).
Before deciding what is a competitive price, always get a written specification defining what will actually be done.
I regularly 'freshen-up' my rally car engines in between major re-builds. That is relatively cheap, but then I know the spec and when I last did what to it. For example, the oil pump, bearing shells, thrusts, clutch plate, etc, get changed after every 6 or 7 rallies.
It's always a case of 'buyer-beware'.
You can always do an engine build 'on-the-cheap', but as with all things you get what you pay for. I've sometimes been asked "How cheap could you build me an engine?". My answer is "I can't". All the parts, which make up a significant part of the overall price, have a basic cost. Pistons, for example, cost around £150 for a set of Hepolite 21253 high-comp slippers. Of course, you could fit the low comp and weaker 21251 version, c.£50 a set, which are nowhere near as good and I would never touch them except, perhaps, for a Metro Van! Another example is whether the cam is timed-in accurately, to remove manufacturer's tolerances, of just set-up on the timing wheel marks.
If you are having a complete engine built you should renew everything, including doing a crank re-grind, a head re-build, re-bore and deck the block, skim the head face, fit all new oil pump, water pump, valves, valve guides, bearings, re-con the dizzy, fit and ream the new cam bearings, fit a new cam and followers, new timing chain (duplex conversion if necessary). Do at least two engine builds: an initial dummy build to check all dimensions plus a final build. Re-cut the valve seats, fit new valve springs, fit all new block/head studs, possibly a new rocker shaft,
The labour for this, including all stripping, cleaning, measuring, and reassembly is not likely to come to less than 37 hours if done properly. Cost that at a sensible hourly rate of, say, £30 per hour and see what you get. Then add all the parts at list, not forgetting the gaskets, and see what you now get. If the quoted prices from an engine builder is less than that figure he must be cutting corners, so beware.
Don't forget to have the gearbox checked out and certainly strip the diff out and fit a new diff pin and planet wheels as a minimum.
I once built a new engine for a Cooper 'S' with a lot of additional power (up from 75 to about 95 bhp) and the owner assured me the box was fine and that he didn't want to have it checked or any new bits fitted. Three weeks after having his engine fitted, run-in and rolling road set up, the old box failed. The increased power killed it off! It then cost him another lot of labour charges for removing the engine, stripping it out, and fitting a new s/c c/r box (adding about £1400 to his original bill).
Before deciding what is a competitive price, always get a written specification defining what will actually be done.
I regularly 'freshen-up' my rally car engines in between major re-builds. That is relatively cheap, but then I know the spec and when I last did what to it. For example, the oil pump, bearing shells, thrusts, clutch plate, etc, get changed after every 6 or 7 rallies.
It's always a case of 'buyer-beware'.
Sorry, I just checked and c.£135 is the correct current price for the 21253 pistons at most places. I just guessed before.
In my 1964 'S' rally car I use the Karl Schmidt pistons. They cost a fortune, but are mega-robust. The only problem was that I could not buy new rings for them after 15 rallies. In the end I put in 'Total-Seal' rings, the ones with the gapless 2nd ring. Fantastic rings and reduced oil consumption by over 50%, but expensive.
Interestingly, I used the Hepolite 21253 in my Enduro Rally Car, as standard pistons are mandated under the rules, and they are the nearest to the original Rover pistons. In over 1800 miles, I only used about half-a-pint of 15/50 oil, compared to about 120 per pint in the '64 car when driven hard. However, the bores were new, at 1330 cc, and the ring gaps were exactly correct. It just shows how good modern computer manufactured pistons are these days. By the way, I do recommend Morris Multivis Oil, 15/50. It's an API/SK grade and in a Mini is just great.
It always amazes me how some people charge for 'throwing' an engine together. I know the old 'A'-series unit is pretty straightforward, but it can be so much better with careful assembly and very accurate machining. To think that there are some builders who don't even check how far the piston crowns sit down the bores and machine the deck level with the piston crowns. That's fairly basic to anyone with any build empathy, but how often does it happen. It saves a few hours work and thus cheapens the job. If you don't do a dummy build first, how can the engine be optimised in terms of performance and build quality. I always bring my piston crowns right to the top of the bore. In fact it doesn't matter if they intrude slightly into the gasket space. Then again, how many builders do the C.R. calculations accurately and measure/machine the combustion chambers to give a very accurate C.R? Just watch out for valve clearance if going high-lift and high-comp ratio. It's not normally a problem, but have a care.
As guru1071 implies, you build the performance, reliability and quality into an engine from the start of the rebuild process. The more time and trouble you take initially and the better the quality of the parts you use, the longer the unit will last and the better it will perform.
In my 1964 'S' rally car I use the Karl Schmidt pistons. They cost a fortune, but are mega-robust. The only problem was that I could not buy new rings for them after 15 rallies. In the end I put in 'Total-Seal' rings, the ones with the gapless 2nd ring. Fantastic rings and reduced oil consumption by over 50%, but expensive.
Interestingly, I used the Hepolite 21253 in my Enduro Rally Car, as standard pistons are mandated under the rules, and they are the nearest to the original Rover pistons. In over 1800 miles, I only used about half-a-pint of 15/50 oil, compared to about 120 per pint in the '64 car when driven hard. However, the bores were new, at 1330 cc, and the ring gaps were exactly correct. It just shows how good modern computer manufactured pistons are these days. By the way, I do recommend Morris Multivis Oil, 15/50. It's an API/SK grade and in a Mini is just great.
It always amazes me how some people charge for 'throwing' an engine together. I know the old 'A'-series unit is pretty straightforward, but it can be so much better with careful assembly and very accurate machining. To think that there are some builders who don't even check how far the piston crowns sit down the bores and machine the deck level with the piston crowns. That's fairly basic to anyone with any build empathy, but how often does it happen. It saves a few hours work and thus cheapens the job. If you don't do a dummy build first, how can the engine be optimised in terms of performance and build quality. I always bring my piston crowns right to the top of the bore. In fact it doesn't matter if they intrude slightly into the gasket space. Then again, how many builders do the C.R. calculations accurately and measure/machine the combustion chambers to give a very accurate C.R? Just watch out for valve clearance if going high-lift and high-comp ratio. It's not normally a problem, but have a care.
As guru1071 implies, you build the performance, reliability and quality into an engine from the start of the rebuild process. The more time and trouble you take initially and the better the quality of the parts you use, the longer the unit will last and the better it will perform.
I agree. I bought an MG Metro engine for £70, did a compression test, fine......whacked it in, tight gearbox, no noises, 100%. Then I got loads of oil leaks, and it has just been a nightmare.
I have bought a Bini supercharger and am building a low compression engine. So, how much? Just a rebore/regrind/skim/new gaskets/bearings/pistons/baulk rings/head components/special bolts/cogs/drops/etc/etc.
It is very, very expensive. You then realise that a £1500 recon engine is actually a bargain. The £100's just add up. But it WILL be worth the expense.
Also my secondhand engine was owned by a lady pensioner with 1500 miles on it, etc, etc.
You have to pay sadly, all your smart shortcuts will eventually lead you to this conclusion.
I have bought a Bini supercharger and am building a low compression engine. So, how much? Just a rebore/regrind/skim/new gaskets/bearings/pistons/baulk rings/head components/special bolts/cogs/drops/etc/etc.
It is very, very expensive. You then realise that a £1500 recon engine is actually a bargain. The £100's just add up. But it WILL be worth the expense.
Also my secondhand engine was owned by a lady pensioner with 1500 miles on it, etc, etc.
You have to pay sadly, all your smart shortcuts will eventually lead you to this conclusion.
everyone has their own budget and unfortunately we all have to stick within it, but its best t save up first nd spend as much as u can afford than save up again afterwards to repair any faults,any gud engine shop should talk you through ur budget nd spend it wisely 4 u.
nd remember a budget engine will last if driven as intended (not 8000 rpm ).I spend what i can then if it goes wrong -well its tough on my account .
nd remember a budget engine will last if driven as intended (not 8000 rpm ).I spend what i can then if it goes wrong -well its tough on my account .
Gassing Station | Classic Minis | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff