Veg Oil in a Diesel engine. Test Results.
Discussion
In order to not break the law, I decided to take my car to a private track and test how it ran on sunflower oil (Somerfield variety). What I found was pretty interesting. It works a treat. No power loss in the top 2/3 of the rev range. Slightly down on the bottom 3rd. When cold the "clatteryness" of the diesel engine is much accentuated. This is running it from cold, under power at low revs, it clatters like a machine gun. It also has a vague "cooking" smell about it, although I was not sure whether it was leaving a "smell trail" behind, emissions were not up. I flushed the fuel lines and filled up with regular diesel and now I will be on to customs and excise to declare my first tankful and a jerry can.
It's a goer folks. Somerfields cheapest was 60p/L although I hear that cash and carry/netto/aldi knock the stuff out for as little as 20P/L. I am getting on the case pronto.
It's a goer folks. Somerfields cheapest was 60p/L although I hear that cash and carry/netto/aldi knock the stuff out for as little as 20P/L. I am getting on the case pronto.
Didn't Clarkson do something along these lines on top gear 
. I'm sure they used an old volvo and put filtered old chip shop oil into it, however I think they added some 'spirit' to it to raise the octane. They also used the RAC as independant inspectors and yes it was fine.
Only issue is that apparently you are supposed to inform the tax man so he can bill you the fuel duty
.
Harry
. I'm sure they used an old volvo and put filtered old chip shop oil into it, however I think they added some 'spirit' to it to raise the octane. They also used the RAC as independant inspectors and yes it was fine. Only issue is that apparently you are supposed to inform the tax man so he can bill you the fuel duty
. Harry
yeah Mr C. did it with a Volvo. be nice to see a car on a dyno to see the reults on paper. also be intrested to see how the new high power diesels handle the stuff. is there an addertive you can add as a lubricant? there is some stuff that people use when running race fuel/methanol.
Chris.
Chris.
Bearing in mind, my pug 106 is a N/A landrover/boat engine style diesel. Not a performance item.
Apart from the clatteryness when cold, there is little problem, allthough I hear it is more of a pain with turbo'd cars.
I'm not sure about the used oil, what you have to do is carry a transesterification reaction out on it so it readily dumps the water/impurities/oxidation products out.
In order to do this, you need Sodium Hydroxide (Dissolved in water), Methanol and you react "the right" amounts together to make Sodium Methanoate which you then chuck "the right amount" of that in with the oil and agitate for ages, upon standing, the oil will be the top layer which you syphon off. I'm not on that much of an eco-drive and mucking about with chemical reactions is just a pain. Although, I hear that Bio-Diesel (that product) is useable in all engines. Do a google search and all will become clear.
I figure if I shop here and there for bulk oil.
I would not consider putting even strained used oil in my car. Having said, I might have a look at some (I'll ask the pub over the road for their next batch)
Apart from the clatteryness when cold, there is little problem, allthough I hear it is more of a pain with turbo'd cars.
I'm not sure about the used oil, what you have to do is carry a transesterification reaction out on it so it readily dumps the water/impurities/oxidation products out.
In order to do this, you need Sodium Hydroxide (Dissolved in water), Methanol and you react "the right" amounts together to make Sodium Methanoate which you then chuck "the right amount" of that in with the oil and agitate for ages, upon standing, the oil will be the top layer which you syphon off. I'm not on that much of an eco-drive and mucking about with chemical reactions is just a pain. Although, I hear that Bio-Diesel (that product) is useable in all engines. Do a google search and all will become clear.
I figure if I shop here and there for bulk oil.
I would not consider putting even strained used oil in my car. Having said, I might have a look at some (I'll ask the pub over the road for their next batch)
There is nothing wrong with using veggy oil ( Straight Vegetable Oil SVO, do a websearch. ) but anything I have read says you need to heat the oil to around 80 degC before use, to thin it down.
Otherwise clogging of fuel lines, injectors etc can occur.
They also suggest fitting larger diameter fuel lines for the same reason. Over time they will gather fat deposits and clog.
AT 50-60p/l IMO its a waste of money The duty will still put it around the same price as diesel, possibly even more. If you dont pay the duty, you risk getting caught, so you may as well just use red diesel.
At 20p/l it probably is worth it, but I havent found any info on the net yet, where people can get oil at that price.
Otherwise clogging of fuel lines, injectors etc can occur.
They also suggest fitting larger diameter fuel lines for the same reason. Over time they will gather fat deposits and clog.
AT 50-60p/l IMO its a waste of money The duty will still put it around the same price as diesel, possibly even more. If you dont pay the duty, you risk getting caught, so you may as well just use red diesel.
At 20p/l it probably is worth it, but I havent found any info on the net yet, where people can get oil at that price.
I most certainly will be paying duty on the maximum amount I am likely to get caught with. Because I only use the car to do about 400 miles per year. So, if I am caught outside, I will say "Here's my proof officer" and then I can be on my way.
Enforcing is it is virtually impossible. Red Diesel is so residual, it is completely stupid to even use it once.
I can't see the oil separating, as it is a stable compound. It may absorb a small amount of water and form gums, but running a polar solvent down the lines should flush them out.
I need to do a whole load of experiments, including the properties of veg oil at low temperature, separation and viscosity, the nature of the resdue, finding out a cheap solvent/additive to prevent gums forming. If I get any hints of "Fuel Line Thrombosis", I will do an autopsy and work back from my findings.
It doesn't sound like there is a problem. What I may use as a cleaning fluid is hot diesel with dissolved washing powder (saturated solution). It should run fine and de-clag everything.
Enforcing is it is virtually impossible. Red Diesel is so residual, it is completely stupid to even use it once.
I can't see the oil separating, as it is a stable compound. It may absorb a small amount of water and form gums, but running a polar solvent down the lines should flush them out.
I need to do a whole load of experiments, including the properties of veg oil at low temperature, separation and viscosity, the nature of the resdue, finding out a cheap solvent/additive to prevent gums forming. If I get any hints of "Fuel Line Thrombosis", I will do an autopsy and work back from my findings.
It doesn't sound like there is a problem. What I may use as a cleaning fluid is hot diesel with dissolved washing powder (saturated solution). It should run fine and de-clag everything.
I only know directly of 2 people that used new veggy oil in their cars.
One ran it in his Pug 309 about 5 years ago. It lasted about 2 months before the pump seized, taking the timing belt with it, with obvious results.
It turned out his car had the type of pump that didnt work well with veggy oil lol
The other is a friend in work, with a Kangoo van. He mixes veggy oil from Tesco, with diesel ( waste of time and money IMO, as there are no real savings to be made )
In recent cold weather his van has been very difficult to start, although once going it seems to be ok.
Pointless using red ?? why, have you always owned the car ?? probably not. Anyone could have used red in the past.
More recently, I myself has switched to Tescos finest.....diesel.
Price and availability of other fuels are just starting to make it pointless. Savings arent enough to make it worth using anything else. I too can remeber a time when I could buy red diesel ( for my blow heater of course ) for 13p/l and that really wasnt that long ago.
Customs clampdown on selling red, does seem to be working. That combined with the huge price increases for the people who do sell it, so they can make massive profits.
One ran it in his Pug 309 about 5 years ago. It lasted about 2 months before the pump seized, taking the timing belt with it, with obvious results.
It turned out his car had the type of pump that didnt work well with veggy oil lol
The other is a friend in work, with a Kangoo van. He mixes veggy oil from Tesco, with diesel ( waste of time and money IMO, as there are no real savings to be made )
In recent cold weather his van has been very difficult to start, although once going it seems to be ok.
Pointless using red ?? why, have you always owned the car ?? probably not. Anyone could have used red in the past.
More recently, I myself has switched to Tescos finest.....diesel.
Price and availability of other fuels are just starting to make it pointless. Savings arent enough to make it worth using anything else. I too can remeber a time when I could buy red diesel ( for my blow heater of course ) for 13p/l and that really wasnt that long ago.
Customs clampdown on selling red, does seem to be working. That combined with the huge price increases for the people who do sell it, so they can make massive profits.
Boosted LS1 said:
I've got a mate who runs his old Polo on parrafin. It smells a bit but goes ok with timing mods. He's been doing it for years without problems but it doesn't get a thrashing.
Boosted.
Years ago they used to run farm tractors on stuff called TVO (Tractor Vapourising Oil) The oil companies don't make it anymore but it was much akin to paraffin.
(Opeioilman probably knows more about it.)
Anyway, you can apparently produce a similar fuel using the following recipe
1. 75% paraffin (cheap)
2. 15% Petrol (ignition/vaporization)
3. 10% Diesel (upper-cylinder lubrication)
On a lighter note
I have a mate who used to work on a farm and take an interest in these things.
Is he therefore an ex tractor fan?
love machine said:
Bearing in mind, my pug 106 is a N/A landrover/boat engine style diesel. Not a performance item.
Apart from the clatteryness when cold, there is little problem <snip> I'm not on that much of an eco-drive and mucking about with chemical reactions is just a pain.
Transesterification is probably slightly worse from the eco-drive point of view, at least if you're only considering the fuel production part of the system, but it's better for your engine. The clatteryness is because it's harder to achieve decent atomisation/vaporisation/mixing with the air with the more gooey triglyceride than the sodium/fatty acid ester; AIUI not much happens until a little bit of it has managed to burn, then the extra heat helps the rest of it to vaporise and it all goes off at once. Too much clatter is bad for the bearings, like overuse of ether as a starting aid.
sparkythecat said:
Years ago they used to run farm tractors on stuff called TVO (Tractor Vapourising Oil) The oil companies don't make it anymore but it was much akin to paraffin.
(Opeioilman probably knows more about it.)
Anyway, you can apparently produce a similar fuel using the following recipe
1. 75% paraffin (cheap)
2. 15% Petrol (ignition/vaporization)
3. 10% Diesel (upper-cylinder lubrication)
AIUI TVO was a spark-ignition fuel, hence the use of petrol in making the substitute.
I have done allsorts of tests running everything from recovered solvents, hot paraffin, white spirit, etc in engines. I understand the veg oil has preferably to be preheated, I'm not about to muck about with big scale chemistry in order to run my car.
It seems to run OK, I will just run it until it blows up and then do an autopsy and see why. At the moment, I am avoiding "the clatter zone" and hopefully minimising my bearing loads. I may experiment with a kerosene/sunflower couple and see if that is better viscosity wise.
It seems to run OK, I will just run it until it blows up and then do an autopsy and see why. At the moment, I am avoiding "the clatter zone" and hopefully minimising my bearing loads. I may experiment with a kerosene/sunflower couple and see if that is better viscosity wise.
Alcohol, need massive tanks and weeny jets.
Brush Thinners, can't lead it, about as good as premium. 70p/L +tax
That's about it. Petrol is a hard one to replicate. I will run solvents (very reluctantly) when petrol gets too expensive.
I was wondering about modifying veg oil, but it is massively tedious/complex.
Brush Thinners, can't lead it, about as good as premium. 70p/L +tax
That's about it. Petrol is a hard one to replicate. I will run solvents (very reluctantly) when petrol gets too expensive.
I was wondering about modifying veg oil, but it is massively tedious/complex.
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