ex tenants deposit claim

[mobbsy30]

Hi,

On Wednesday I received a letter from a solicitor stating that an ex tenant has made a claim for an unprotected deposit, they are asking for 3600 pounds which they say is made up of 480 (the initial deposit) plus 3 times the deposit as a penalty, for the initial tenancy and the same again for the second count. They are claiming that when the tenancy rolled over to a periodic tenancy they can claim this again.

I believe this figure to be 3840 pounds.

The tenant left in November 2016 owing me approximately the same figure in rent, she left no forwarding address and disappeared abandoning her daughter.

After the initial letter I phoned the solicitor and offered to return the deposit but no more, after their refusal I became annoyed and hung up saying 'well take me to court then'. My wife since phoned them and offered 2000 to settle, although I was reluctant. Having added up what she owes and thinking about it for a few days I think that I would be better going to court as from what I have read the likely penalty is repay the deposit plus one times penalty.

Does anybody have any experience with this stuff and how these cases go once at court, any help would be appreciated,

thanks

[hornetrider]

Did you put the deposit in a scheme?

[anonymous-user]

Can't help but is it right that the deposit penalty can be applied twice? Sounds like BS to me but hopefully someone more knowledgeable will come along and clarify.

You may want to talk to citizens advice or a solicitor to get informed advice.

[mobbsy30]

no I didn't, more fool me.

[PurpleMoonlight]

Can't help on the legal front, but just wanted to say that some people are scum (the tenant that is not you).

[mobbsy30]

I know that I should have put the deposit in a scheme but even though she left owing rent I was happy for her to be out and to leave it there. What annoys me most is that she never even asked for her deposit back and never told anyone where she was going. I will struggle to afford a solicitor and she will obviously get legal aid. I am wondering if I should make my case as well as I can myself and risk court, or settle, (which will require me to borrow money anyway).

[PurpleMoonlight]

If you defend it you can add a counterclaim for what she owes you.

[mobbsy30]

I've just added up what she owes, this includes counting the initial payment as rent and it comes to 3690 pounds, although her ex partner did make some cash payments to top it up although I don't think they will add up to much.

so if she is successful and gets awarded her 3840, and I can prove that she owes me 3400 say, I assume it would be me who would be liable for court costs, does anybody know what that would total? is it a fixed price or would I be liable for her legal fees?

[superlightr]

she mostly likely wont get legal aid.

Did you protect the deposit?

How many tenancy agreements did you give? what were the dates? roll ons or new fixed terms?

The continuation of the tenancy does not need a re-registration of the deposit - the original registration continues BUT if you did not register the deposit in the first place AND issued a new tenancy it may be arguable that each should have been protected. You mention a roll on so that's a continuation of the original tenancy so should be 1x penalty of upto 3x the deposit.

From your description I believe it would be viewed as 1 tenancy one breech of the regulations.

Yes the penalty is UPTO 3x the deposit - dont believe it is the deposit AND upto 3x the deposit. I can check Monday.

Why did you not protect the deposit?
Did you use an agent?

Did you have any clue as to DIY letting and the legal process you have to follow with the documents?

ps don't phone the solicitor put everything in writing. lets get the basic facts about what you have done/screwed up and then go from there.

Edited by superlightr on Saturday 9th September 09:24

Edited by superlightr on Saturday 9th September 09:26

Edited by superlightr on Saturday 9th September 09:27

[Andehh]

Write back including a cheque for full deposit & maybe £150 as an apology for the hassle.

Courts will look very favourably on you if you have genuinely tried to resolve this a swiftly as you can and as fairly as you can.

They can award "up to" 3 times the deposit, but that's reserved for landlords who play silly buggers. It is not a clear cut 'deposit not protected = 3x deposit awarded' .

IANAL but i took my old landlord to court for 3x deposit after he withheld deposit, didn't protect it then was an asshole towards me for ridiculously excessive & unwarranted deductions.

Week before court he coughed up full deposit & legal fees, I was disappointed (I wanted the 3x deposit! £££) but was advised to accept it and move on. Me getting greedy and wasting the courts time as a result was a risk of me getting penalised as much as landlord would be!


Edit: the fact you offered them £2k and they turned it down is fking madness on both sides. You for offering that much & them for not accepting it and laughing at you all the way to their bank! Ensure you have evidence you offered that & an apology etc etc and then see them in court.

Edit2; I'm still shocked you offered £2k and they said no, COURTS DO NOT LIKE THEIR TIME BEING WASTED, you offering them £2k to walk away from a £480 deposit is fking ridiculous....in itself . The court will crucify them for rejecting that & demanding more.

Edited by Andehh on Saturday 9th September 09:37

Edited by Andehh on Saturday 9th September 09:39

[mobbsy30]

she has a solicitor working for her now, I assume this is either on legal aid or a no win no fee basis, but I don't know for sure.

I believe the tenancy rolled on, at least that is what she is claiming, I can't remember to be fair and I'm at work now so would have to go home to check.

I didn't protect the deposit because I am an idiot it seems, at the time I didn't know much about the schemes and it seemed like an extra pain in the arse. I have previously had tenants leave having caused damage or owing me money and to be honest I have generally returned the deposit as I have just been glad to get rid of bad tenants.

She was to be fair not a bad tenant for most of the time, I was keen to keep on top of the house so any issues were dealt with pretty sharpish. We were never too bothered if she was a bit late paying her rent, and we even gave her some stuff for her eldest son, clothes etc. to help her out. She then started taking drugs again and that was when she left her partner and did a moonlight flit with some guy.

She was in such a rush to leave that she didn't take her 1 year old daughter with her.

I know I should have protected the deposit but surely this law is designed to protect good tenants from bad landlords. When this is resolved the house will be sold as I have had enough now of people constantly taking the piss.

I feel like a mug and whilst I understand my wifes position of, just settle and get rid of the problem, I can't help feeling that I should fight my corner, although obviously I have committed the offence.

[mobbsy30]

Sorry the 2K was offered by my wife, they have accepted it although the claim is against me.

I now intend to cancel that offer as they got no authority from me.

this shouldn't be an issue should it as I haven't agreed, it was my wife who made the offer

[superlightr]

Andehh said:

Write back including a cheque for full deposit & maybe £150 as an apology for the hassle.

Courts will look very favourably on you if you have genuinely tried to resolve this a swiftly as you can and as fairly as you can.

They can award "up to" 3 times the deposit, but that's reserved for landlords who play silly buggers. It is not a clear cut 'deposit not protected = 3x deposit awarded' .

IANAL but i took my old landlord to court for 3x deposit after he withheld deposit, didn't protect it then was an asshole towards me for ridiculously excessive & unwarranted deductions.

Week before court he coughed up full deposit & legal fees, I was disappointed (I wanted the 3x deposit! £££) but was advised to accept it and move on. Me getting greedy and wasting the courts time as a result was a risk of me getting penalised as much as landlord would be!


Edit: the fact you offered them £2k and they turned it down is fking madness on both sides. You for offering that much & them for not accepting it and laughing at you all the way to their bank! Ensure you have evidence you offered that & an apology etc etc and then see them in court.

Edit2; I'm still shocked you offered £2k and they said no, COURTS DO NOT LIKE THEIR TIME BEING WASTED, you offering them £2k to walk away from a £480 deposit is fking ridiculous....in itself . The court will crucify them for rejecting that & demanding more.

Edited by Andehh on Saturday 9th September 09:37

Edited by Andehh on Saturday 9th September 09:39

understand what you are saying.

Its an absolute offence - it either is or is not protected correctly. The court MUST award upto 3x the deposit. Yes it is clear cut that the OP will lose if he has not protected the deposit correctly. The question as to how much will be dependant on the court. Its not wasting the courts time if a breach of the law has occurred.

[superlightr]

mobbsy30 said:

I know I should have protected the deposit but surely this law is designed to protect good tenants from bad landlords. When this is resolved the house will be sold as I have had enough now of people constantly taking the piss.

I feel like a mug and whilst I understand my wifes position of, just settle and get rid of the problem, I can't help feeling that I should fight my corner, although obviously I have committed the offence.

good/bad landlords? im sorry to say you are in the "!bad" landlord camp because you broke the law on deposits. Not saying you are a bad person but certainly should not be a landlord if you don't wish to educate yourself on landlord and tenant law and regulations you have to apply. You were lucky she left the property.

Rather than sell the property why not let it correctly and successfully with a reputable letting agent?

With the penalty I think the offer of £2000 by your wife is way too much as it exceeds the upto 3x deposit penalty.

Yes you can counter claim for the damages/loss or rent which you should do.

[mobbsy30]

Thanks for the advice everybody, its been really helpful to hear that others think this would be worth contesting.

My plan of action now is to

contact solicitor and offer 650 pound or so (deposit plus good will gesture)

if this is rejected, let them start court proceedings and enter a counterclaim for the rent owed.

Try and agree to settle before court for less that 1000 pounds, if not accepted, go to court and take my chances,

This sounds more reasonable to me

[mobbsy30]

forgot to add on my plan,

bk wife, (she was just trying to help)

sell house give up being a landlord.

[Andehh]

superlightr said:

understand what you are saying.

Its an absolute offence - it either is or is not protected correctly. The court MUST award upto 3x the deposit. Yes it is clear cut that the OP will lose if he has not protected the deposit correctly. The question as to how much will be dependant on the court. Its not wasting the courts time if a breach of the law has occurred.

''up to 3x the deposit''

The full ''3x deposit'' is reserved for truly unreasonable situations, as a penalty to an entirely unreasonable Landlord who fight it all the way to court. I went through this several years ago (as a tenant with a wker of a landlord) & got super excited as the prospect of 3x my deposit back because of my greed & sudden prospect of £thousands (& revenge).

The week before court the Landlord wrote to me apologies, with an offer of deposit refunded & he would cover legal fees. I was desperate to reject this and demand the full 3x. I was mortified when CAB my LEGAL advice was to accept this and drop my legal challenge as I wanted the compensation/ £xxxx monies. I was heavily warned that the Court would take a very very very very VERY dim view of me turning up demanding ''compensation''. I was heavily warned again that I risked being punished by the court (ie having to pay legal fees myself etc) for being unreasonable & greedy in light of the Landlord offering the full deposit & legal fees. I was really gutted, but accept it.

I can't stress this enough. Write back to them, with a cheque offering the FULL deposit back and an apology, if you really feel the need to, throw in a second cheque for £100 as way of an apology. Wish them well, be fair, reasonable and polite.

It also wouldn't hurt to explain that they left suddenly, with no forwarding address and din't provide any way of you contacting them. You made reasonable efforts to track them, but when you didnt you put the money to one side. The court WILL NOT overlook you being fair & reasonable. The courts WILL NOT overlook said tenant being greedy & demanding unwarranted compensation.

edit:

She WILL NOT have legal Aid for this, they don't offer it. More then likely it is a 'no win no fee' type arrangement. Again, this will not be overlooked by the court.

Edited by Andehh on Saturday 9th September 10:15

[mobbsy30]

I think that sounds reasonable,

I have never been so annoyed about something in my entire life, I can't believe they are demanding 3K in compensation when actually she didn't suffer any loss, had the deposit been protected, she wouldn't have got it back anyway.

thanks again for the advice, I feel much better about it now.

I assume I should send this cheque to the solicitor, not her directly

[Andehh]

superlightr said:

good/bad landlords? im sorry to say you are in the "!bad" landlord camp because you broke the law on deposits.
.

'Bad' is too strong, miss guided/ill educated, BUT he is trying to resolve this fairly & accepting a punishment himself (ie returning the full deposit when he normally would have made deductions form it. This would look VERY favourable in court. Same if he can prove himself to be a good landlord throughout tenancy with timely repairs etc.

mobbsy30 said:

I think that sounds reasonable,

I have never been so annoyed about something in my entire life, I can't believe they are demanding 3K in compensation when actually she didn't suffer any loss, had the deposit been protected, she wouldn't have got it back anyway.

thanks again for the advice, I feel much better about it now.

I assume I should send this cheque to the solicitor, not her directly

VERY reasonable. Be prepared for them to turn their nose up at it now and drag it all out until closer the court date and then ask for more/accept/play silly buggers. Ultimately, they will fold before the actual Court appearance. No win/no Fee at this stage will be getting nervous over you being reasonable & the cost of them attending court and being seen as unreasonable. They will stretch it out as long as possible because greed/nature of their business model.

Hole firm, remain reasonable and with EVERY action you take, ensure you hold the morale high ground, as this will be your ability to get the whole thing thrown out. You = reasonable, them = greedy. Court will take note....

I would send the cheque to solicitors, but write letters, signed & dated (keep copies yourself) and send them recorded delivery to solicitors and to her. Explain you are doing this.

Edited by Andehh on Saturday 9th September 10:22

Edited by Andehh on Saturday 9th September 10:23

[Slagathore]

Andehh said:

superlightr said:

good/bad landlords? im sorry to say you are in the "!bad" landlord camp because you broke the law on deposits.
.

'Bad' is too strong, miss guided/ill educated, BUT he is trying to resolve this fairly & accepting a punishment himself (ie returning the full deposit when he normally would have made deductions form it. This would look VERY favourable in court. Same if he can prove himself to be a good landlord throughout tenancy with timely repairs etc.

mobbsy30 said:

I think that sounds reasonable,

I have never been so annoyed about something in my entire life, I can't believe they are demanding 3K in compensation when actually she didn't suffer any loss, had the deposit been protected, she wouldn't have got it back anyway.

thanks again for the advice, I feel much better about it now.

I assume I should send this cheque to the solicitor, not her directly

VERY reasonable. Be prepared for them to turn their nose up at it now and drag it all out until closer the court date and then ask for more/accept/play silly buggers. Ultimately, they will fold before the actual Court appearance. No win/no Fee at this stage will be getting nervous over you being reasonable & the cost of them attending court and being seen as unreasonable. They will stretch it out as long as possible because greed/nature of their business model.

Hole firm, remain reasonable and with EVERY action you take, ensure you hold the morale high ground, as this will be your ability to get the whole thing thrown out. You = reasonable, them = greedy. Court will take note....

I would send the cheque to solicitors, but write letters, signed & dated (keep copies yourself) and send them recorded delivery to solicitors and to her. Explain you are doing this.

Edited by Andehh on Saturday 9th September 10:22

Edited by Andehh on Saturday 9th September 10:23

What is your background/basis for this, other than one similar experience?

You're making some big statements and I'm not sure that's the best advice here.

http://www.landlordsguild.com/tdp-case-summary/

Quick Google - lots of examples of landlords getting a bumming for not protecting the deposits

For instance:

"Ayannuga v Swindells (2012) CA (Civ) 6
Landlord had protected the deposit perfectly well but not issued “full” prescribed information (had provided some basic information but nothing more than that). This case decided that the prescribed information is strict and “all” the information (or substantially all) must be given to the tenant. Landlord ordered to pay tenant 3 x deposit plus return of deposit."

An even smaller fault than the OP and the landlord still got the max penalty. And remember, it's not compensation, it's a penalty for the landlord failing their obligations.

To the OP, I would get some legal advice.

If you are going to counterclaim for unpaid rent, then you'll need all records of every payment and missed payment, just going in with a spreadsheet etc won't help.

I would suggest you go and get some free time with a lawyer or sign up to one of the landlord associations. I think the associations even have some sort of legal advice for landlords included.