991.2 GT3 manual vs 991.2 GT3 RS.....
Discussion
giles panizzi said:
This is one for the tech boffins.....
Purely a weight question - 991.2 GT3 manual PCCB with cage vs 991.2 GT3 RS WP. I can't quite remember the weight of the PDK gearbox but it must be a close run thing for the 20bhp!
Cheers
SportAuto weighed the pdk .2 gt3 (cage/ceramics) at 1492kg vs 1443kg for the WP .2 3rs. Porsche quote somewhere in the specs the weight difference between dual clutch and manual that I don't remember, I assume cheib per above has quoted that number.Purely a weight question - 991.2 GT3 manual PCCB with cage vs 991.2 GT3 RS WP. I can't quite remember the weight of the PDK gearbox but it must be a close run thing for the 20bhp!
Cheers
It is interesting In the Sport Auto article quoted they mention that the factory driver who set the Ring record of 7.12.9 for the 991.2 GT3 PDK claimed he had driven only 3 seconds slower in the 6 speed manual version. Of course of the standard MPSC2 N1 tyres.
As discussed in another thread, the manual is therefore not as much slower on this 22.8km course than one would expect given (in theory) the number of upshifts (where manual is slower than PDK) that is typical at the Nurburgring course.
With 160 turns and typically around 100 shifts per lap I would expect there to be around 30-40 upshifts in a typical hero lap with a 6 speed box. maths would dictate a loss of 1 tenth per shift. I am fairly certain however this is physically impossible so therefore as I expounded in a previous post on a topic (and from my onw empirical data) it would appear there is more happening with a manual car on the Ring. My belief is the manual car is putting more power to the ground and therefore making up the time after the shift quicker than the PDK variant. The 17kg weight is not enough to explain this particularly when you consider the manual car also has the technical dissadvantage of an old school mechnical diff....
As discussed in another thread, the manual is therefore not as much slower on this 22.8km course than one would expect given (in theory) the number of upshifts (where manual is slower than PDK) that is typical at the Nurburgring course.
With 160 turns and typically around 100 shifts per lap I would expect there to be around 30-40 upshifts in a typical hero lap with a 6 speed box. maths would dictate a loss of 1 tenth per shift. I am fairly certain however this is physically impossible so therefore as I expounded in a previous post on a topic (and from my onw empirical data) it would appear there is more happening with a manual car on the Ring. My belief is the manual car is putting more power to the ground and therefore making up the time after the shift quicker than the PDK variant. The 17kg weight is not enough to explain this particularly when you consider the manual car also has the technical dissadvantage of an old school mechnical diff....
Macca993 said:
It is interesting In the Sport Auto article quoted they mention that the factory driver who set the Ring record of 7.12.9 for the 991.2 GT3 PDK claimed he had driven only 3 seconds slower in the 6 speed manual version. Of course of the standard MPSC2 N1 tyres.
As discussed in another thread, the manual is therefore not as much slower on this 22.8km course than one would expect given (in theory) the number of upshifts (where manual is slower than PDK) that is typical at the Nurburgring course.
With 160 turns and typically around 100 shifts per lap I would expect there to be around 30-40 upshifts in a typical hero lap with a 6 speed box. maths would dictate a loss of 1 tenth per shift. I am fairly certain however this is physically impossible so therefore as I expounded in a previous post on a topic (and from my onw empirical data) it would appear there is more happening with a manual car on the Ring. My belief is the manual car is putting more power to the ground and therefore making up the time after the shift quicker than the PDK variant. The 17kg weight is not enough to explain this particularly when you consider the manual car also has the technical dissadvantage of an old school mechnical diff....
Dundon have recently posted on Rennlist a list of comparitive Dynos on all 911GT3/RS iterations..In the case of the 991.2GT3 in both Manual and PDK guises the former puts exactly 10HP more WHP at max power compared to the latter, or roughly 2% more.As discussed in another thread, the manual is therefore not as much slower on this 22.8km course than one would expect given (in theory) the number of upshifts (where manual is slower than PDK) that is typical at the Nurburgring course.
With 160 turns and typically around 100 shifts per lap I would expect there to be around 30-40 upshifts in a typical hero lap with a 6 speed box. maths would dictate a loss of 1 tenth per shift. I am fairly certain however this is physically impossible so therefore as I expounded in a previous post on a topic (and from my onw empirical data) it would appear there is more happening with a manual car on the Ring. My belief is the manual car is putting more power to the ground and therefore making up the time after the shift quicker than the PDK variant. The 17kg weight is not enough to explain this particularly when you consider the manual car also has the technical dissadvantage of an old school mechnical diff....
Motor Trend in the US did a “Head to Head” video of the Manual and PDK GT3’s and the Merc AMG last year. On a short figure of 8 test the manual car was actually quicker than the PDK because of the gearing and the ability to hold the car in gear on the rev limiter (second gear in this case)...I believe they said that the PDK even in manual mode will change up on the rev limit. Don’t know if that’s true but that’s what they said. Maybe on some of those tight Nurburgring corners maybe being able to hold the car in second or third gear is an advantage.
Taffy66 said:
Dundon have recently posted on Rennlist a list of comparitive Dynos on all 911GT3/RS iterations..In the case of the 991.2GT3 in both Manual and PDK guises the former puts exactly 10HP more WHP at max power compared to the latter, or roughly 2% more.
Very interesting. Im guessing that its the extra torque its putting down between shifts (4500-5500 rpm) that is even more noticeable than this 2% increase at the peak. The PDK gearbox is estimated to rob the drivetrain of 5% through parasytic losses so Dundons findings are fairly consistent with that given its never an exact science testing two different physical cars against each other even on the same dyno on the same day....I had Dundon headers on my 991.1 GT3 for a while but I havent caught up on their recent developments. The Dundon headers were great (but pricey) but they blew a hole in my factory back box (which now most users of these headers on track have experienced!). Subsequently it was a very expensive exercise especially when I needed a warranty extension around the time this happened and had to buy a used replacement box and remove the headers to appease the 110 point warranty inspection. I sold the Dundon headers to a well known young UK race driver who had a 991.1 GT3Rs as his "fun car"....
Taffy66 said:
Dundon have recently posted on Rennlist a list of comparitive Dynos on all 911GT3/RS iterations..In the case of the 991.2GT3 in both Manual and PDK guises the former puts exactly 10HP more WHP at max power compared to the latter, or roughly 2% more.
That’s all we need to know...the manual is more powerful. The end. 
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yes its much less of a risk with the rev matching which occurs in sport mode on the new GT3 manual.I agree that the PDK would be the transmission of choice of the car were parked up at the track and used for track work only.
My GT3 is intended only for track work and is manual. However in reality only 30% of my mileage is actually laps because our tracks are spread apart by 200 miles and I frequent three different ones regularly. As such the back road B road jaunts we do on the way to and from the track make up 70% of the mileage and are often as fun as the actual circuit work. This is where the manual is a more engaging experience IMO. On the track the manual seems alot more challenging to get consistent clean laps as like golf its very hard to get everythiny right for every hole/corner. The manual is slower ultimately but the challenge of getting near PDK lap times out of it means it takes a lot longer before you hit "the plateau". Thats my opinion but I accept other useage of the car and lifestyles will dictate otherwise. In all honesty I would have been happy to take a PDK car for my useage as in reality its purpose is as a track toy (I have a very fun daily driver which has an automated transmission and a turbo engine - Alfa Guilia QV) however the best trade I was given on my prior car was on a manual GT3 so I took that...
Macca993 said:
Yes its much less of a risk with the rev matching which occurs in sport mode on the new GT3 manual.
I agree that the PDK would be the transmission of choice of the car were parked up at the track and used for track work only.
My GT3 is intended only for track work and is manual. However in reality only 30% of my mileage is actually laps because our tracks are spread apart by 200 miles and I frequent three different ones regularly. As such the back road B road jaunts we do on the way to and from the track make up 70% of the mileage and are often as fun as the actual circuit work. This is where the manual is a more engaging experience IMO. On the track the manual seems alot more challenging to get consistent clean laps as like golf its very hard to get everythiny right for every hole/corner. The manual is slower ultimately but the challenge of getting near PDK lap times out of it means it takes a lot longer before you hit "the plateau". Thats my opinion but I accept other useage of the car and lifestyles will dictate otherwise. In all honesty I would have been happy to take a PDK car for my useage as in reality its purpose is as a track toy (I have a very fun daily driver which has an automated transmission and a turbo engine - Alfa Guilia QV) however the best trade I was given on my prior car was on a manual GT3 so I took that...
Agree but now cars are so .... electronic with matching etc , may as well go the whole way , I still like the challenge of no ABS , true manual shifting no traction control etc. etc ( I have a 2001 GT3 RS for all that ) but we live in a Tesla generation now and electronics are here so may as well enjoy them .I agree that the PDK would be the transmission of choice of the car were parked up at the track and used for track work only.
My GT3 is intended only for track work and is manual. However in reality only 30% of my mileage is actually laps because our tracks are spread apart by 200 miles and I frequent three different ones regularly. As such the back road B road jaunts we do on the way to and from the track make up 70% of the mileage and are often as fun as the actual circuit work. This is where the manual is a more engaging experience IMO. On the track the manual seems alot more challenging to get consistent clean laps as like golf its very hard to get everythiny right for every hole/corner. The manual is slower ultimately but the challenge of getting near PDK lap times out of it means it takes a lot longer before you hit "the plateau". Thats my opinion but I accept other useage of the car and lifestyles will dictate otherwise. In all honesty I would have been happy to take a PDK car for my useage as in reality its purpose is as a track toy (I have a very fun daily driver which has an automated transmission and a turbo engine - Alfa Guilia QV) however the best trade I was given on my prior car was on a manual GT3 so I took that...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yeah. Im in two minds on that. I used to think my heel/toe was pretty good. I ended up rebuilding the gearbox in my 993 after a number of track days. On the road I enjoy doing this, but at the circuit your accuracy has to be spot on. To be honest I never drove my GT4 on the track without Sport mode (was forced to do it as the extra oil cooler in the nose would not not function on that car until you were in sport mode). I went out for a few sessions without sport mode and enjoyed it very much but the temps got high quickly. On the road its much more fun.anonymous said:
[redacted]
Agree entirely.With my 991.1 GT3 I would usually hop in (it defaults to normal mode) and taking off from an interection or lights it would be in 5th gear by the time I hit 50mph! Its programmed to shift through teh gears as quickly as it can. Driving it in Sport or Sport+ in town meant it felt quite jerky and very much on a leash which got tiring quick especially with a passenger. With the manual you are forced to hold 1st gear to at least 3500-4000 rpm even on a relatively gentle upshift just so you can grab the next cog without falling off the rev band. This give the impression the car has more "grunt" and "acceleration" and every time you take off you are very aware you are driving a powerful sports car. This is just one small aspect of manual ownrship I really enjoy - being forced to use teh revs more means you get to "fell" the cars power and chassis more often, and of course with smooth shifts and occassional heel and toe you can drive as raw or smooth as you like even at speeds 30-50 mph around town roads....
As you start to learn to really push on, on the circuit, with the 991 GT3 you find you are using up the whole track and moving very quickly indeed (my personal fastest lap times at one circuit is within a second a lap of what 996 Cup cars on slicks were achieving in the Porsche Series a decade or so ago). You need alot of concentration for positioning the car, setting it up into corners and trail braking and such like. Heel/Toe in these situations needs to be performed very fluidly and precisely as you dont want to upset the chassis during a high speed lateral manouvour. Its fun to get it right but it takes a fair bit of practice to be confident...its much harder than on the road where everything is happening at a much slower pace...
3 seconds sounds about right. It’s still a long long way at 150mph. This isn’t analog v digital. The manual car is still loaded with driver aids. The 997 cup is about 1 - 1.5 seconds quicker than the 996. It has a better chassis and a flat shift sequential box. In the same chassis’s a sequential box wouldn’t give you 1.5 seconds so the difference between the 2 991’s is not that surprising. Once I accepted that modern 911’s were not going to offer a full analog experience, the manual/sequential thing doesn’t really bother me. I’d be happy with either.
Macca993 said:
With 160 turns and typically around 100 shifts per lap I would expect there to be around 30-40 upshifts in a typical hero lap with a 6 speed box. maths would dictate a loss of 1 tenth per shift. I am fairly certain however this is physically impossible so therefore as I expounded in a previous post on a topic (and from my onw empirical data) it would appear there is more happening with a manual car on the Ring. My belief is the manual car is putting more power to the ground and therefore making up the time after the shift quicker than the PDK variant. The 17kg weight is not enough to explain this particularly when you consider the manual car also has the technical dissadvantage of an old school mechnical diff....
Actually given the .2gt3 has a flat shift function, the time loss on each upshift would be less than on one without... But given the gearing on the dual clutch car remains lower than the manual at most equivalent speeds between the cars, the 10hp difference the cars quoted above will not imo be enough to mean the manual car is actually putting more power on the ground. (too lazy to calculate the % power extra needed to overcome the difference in gearing but I'd hazard a guess it's more than 2% 
)Cheib said:
Motor Trend in the US did a “Head to Head” video of the Manual and PDK GT3’s and the Merc AMG last year. On a short figure of 8 test the manual car was actually quicker than the PDK because of the gearing and the ability to hold the car in gear on the rev limiter (second gear in this case)...I believe they said that the PDK even in manual mode will change up on the rev limit. Don’t know if that’s true but that’s what they said. Maybe on some of those tight Nurburgring corners maybe being able to hold the car in second or third gear is an advantage.
The pdk was quicker around willow springs in that test although it was very small difference .Interestingly though the turbo s was quicker around that track .
Pdk does not change up on rev limit in manual mode,well mine doesn’t anyway.
The pdk was quicker around willow springs in that test although it was very small difference .Interestingly though the turbo s was quicker around that track .
Pdk does not change up on rev limit in manual mode,well mine doesn’t anyway.
Gassing Station | 911/Carrera GT | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff