Camper to tow a Car

[ATM]

Hello

I've been obsessing about a camper now for years. It feels like the ultimate in go anywhere freedom. How could you not like the idea of that. Maybe being locked in at home is making this obsession more rampant. My idea of a camper is not a small little van which has everything neatly packaged inside. I think go big or go home. I'd love a massive American RV but the budget wont stretch to that. So back in the real world can I get something affordable which will do the job. But here is the thing. I dont want to tow a smart car or a city car. I want to tow a real car. So does that mean a full size car trailer. And does that mean I need a twin wheeled 4 or 5 tonne rated van to tow it.

So lets see pics of your campers towing some real cars please or your thoughts on this.

Thanks

[300bhp/ton]

ATM said:

Hello

I've been obsessing about a camper now for years. It feels like the ultimate in go anywhere freedom. How could you not like the idea of that. Maybe being locked in at home is making this obsession more rampant. My idea of a camper is not a small little van which has everything neatly packaged inside. I think go big or go home. I'd love a massive American RV but the budget wont stretch to that. So back in the real world can I get something affordable which will do the job. But here is the thing. I dont want to tow a smart car or a city car. I want to tow a real car. So does that mean a full size car trailer. And does that mean I need a twin wheeled 4 or 5 tonne rated van to tow it.

So lets see pics of your campers towing some real cars please or your thoughts on this.

Thanks

I'm not sure a full on RV is total freedom. Lots of places they won't fit and shouldn't be taken. But I get what you mean

In terms of towing a trailer, it just needs to be suitable for the payload. Ifor Williams do a nice little single axle car trailer, weighs in around 450kg and can carry almost a tonne. So fine for lots of cars.

As for the camper and towing, what do you have on your driving licence (will depend how old you are unless you've taken additional tests).

[ATM]

fesuvious said:

You will need to be able to tow up to 2tonnes minimum. Realistically this means having something that can tow 3.5tonnes.
You will need a camper with a gross weight over 4.5tonnes.

It's easy to pick pedantic holes with this. In thee real world this is about right.

I tow a race car in an eco-trailer. The trailer with car and stuff is about 2.5tonnes. I first used a Merc 416 race van. This had a modified 2.7turbodiesel. worked well enough. The van was, with kit up against the weight limit.

Now a 2007 N&B 6.5 tonne motorhome on Iveco chassis.

My advice is always have the tow vehicle a good tonne heavier as a minimum. And never smaller. It's just easier. I have towed this with my 2015 VW T6 and it's nowhere near as easy.

If you want to take a proper car, you will need a proper trailer.

I'm thinking Sprinter or Crafter size. What's an N&B?

[ATM]

300bhp/ton said:

I'm not sure a full on RV is total freedom. Lots of places they won't fit and shouldn't be taken. But I get what you mean

In terms of towing a trailer, it just needs to be suitable for the payload. Ifor Williams do a nice little single axle car trailer, weighs in around 450kg and can carry almost a tonne. So fine for lots of cars.

As for the camper and towing, what do you have on your driving licence (will depend how old you are unless you've taken additional tests).

I have C1, C1E, D1 and D1E. Does that cover it?

[ATM]

So does a longer van make towing more difficult or not worth worrying about. I've seen some older minibus type vans which dont look quite as battered as an old panel van. Also is manual gearbox or auto better for towing - I've never towed before you see.

[ATM]

I suppose a massive van and trailer to tow a car is great but when I then get to my camping destination and want to go off for a romp in the Porsche I end up leaving a big trailer lying around with my van. I'm assuming these car trailers are big and heavy and you cant just fold them up and pop them in the camper when not in use. Are they that big and cumbersome that even when they are empty you still have to tow them - so lets say you want to move the trailer from a to b but dont need to also move a car? Are there any options for a lighter smaller device that can tow a car on the back of a camper? I know there are those A frames but they need to have the car adapted for them right? What about a 2 wheel lift type device like the AA use - do they still use those? I've seen this x snap on van for sale which has a massive tail lift that i absolutely do not need but I am now wandering if that can be adapted to become a 2 wheel lift type device.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/223954898482

Edited by ATM on Friday 17th April 12:12

[john2443]

ATM said:

What about a 2 wheel lift type device like the AA use - do they still use those? I've seen this x snap on van for sale which has a massive tail lift that i absolutely do not need but I am now wandering if that can be adapted to become a 2 wheel lift type device.

I think those are only legal for recovery??

Also, Porsche are quite low, when you've lifted the front, will the tail be scraping on the road, and with some cars it's not recommended to tow long distances with the wheels driving the gearbox.

[21st Century Man]

https://www.digitalfibres.com/caratow/

I towed a Panda behind a Kontiki for a few years with one of these, I've seen a number of full size cars being towed behind big RV's with them.

[ATM]

21st Century Man said:

https://www.digitalfibres.com/caratow/

I towed a Panda behind a Kontiki for a few years with one of these, I've seen a number of full size cars being towed behind big RV's with them.

Yes I've seen these and I believe they are referred to as an A frame. It seems that the new laws on towing means anything you tow which has brakes then they need to be operational. I'm not sure how well this would be policed. So these A frames have adapters that hook onto the brake pedal in the car. Think of it like a brake cable on a bicycle with some form of contraption fitted to the floor the car below the brake pedal which can yank it down. Then you use a bungee from the under the seat to add some extra pressure to return it back up. How do I know this, because I watched a video on some website. I'll try and find the link. I'm not against this idea with my Porsche but it would need some brackets fashioning for the front to attach the metal gubbins, maybe use the towing point on one side of the number plate and some how make another for the other side to match. I think this is my best bet right now. It seems that these A frames can be man handles once fully disconnected.

[21st Century Man]

Yes, they apply the brakes on the car in the same way that the brakes on a caravan are applied, as the A frame pushes into the tow vehicle under braking. Unlike a trailer or caravan though, the vehicle on tow is completely stable as its a car with a wheel at each corner, so no snaking or other potential towing shenanigans.

[ATM]

21st Century Man said:

Yes, they apply the brakes on the car in the same way that the brakes on a caravan are applied, as the A frame pushes into the tow vehicle under braking. Unlike a trailer or caravan though, the vehicle on tow is completely stable as its a car with a wheel at each corner, so no snaking or other potential towing shenanigans.

So was your Panda braked like this - I'm not sure if the older a frames were braked or if this is new?

if so - did you fit the contraption to the brake pedal or have it fitted by someone else?

[21st Century Man]

Yes, the Panda was braked, it was crude but effective, a cable passed through a bulkhead penetration and was attached to the brake pedal via a pin and retainer clip. It was all fitted by car a tow. Taking it all on/off to attach to the hitch was fairly quick and simple.

Something to be aware of if you're planning on using it abroad, these things are illegal across most of Europe, but EU reciprocity rules make it legal for Brits to use when abroad, so it's legal for a Brit in France, but illegal for the French in France (much to the chagrin of the Continentals who would take an interest in it on campsites). As we're now out of the EU and the transitional period is due to end this year, those reciprocal rules that currently allow it may not be carried over, so we may no longer be allowed to use these on the Continent as we currently are.

[oblio]

I deleted my post regarding A Frames in the EU as it was absolute tosh

Proper advice here ...

https://www.lnbleisure.co.uk/index.php/2/

Happy to be corrected

Edited by oblio on Tuesday 21st April 08:53

[21st Century Man]

Interesting, were they previously legal in Spain, but not now? It shouldn't make any difference though, unless the Spanish have also introduced a law to over rule the specific bit of EU law that makes it temporarily lawful for foreigners? which I doubt they would be able to do, as it's the sort of legislation that allows us to drive around in each others countries with cars/caravans/trailers that are technically illegal because they don't comply with local regulations (number plates, headlamp alignment, that sort of thing). Basically, if the vehicle/outfit is legal in it's home member state, it's also legal in all other member states too. Sounds to me like the Police not unreasonably thinking it's illegal, but not being aware of the criteria/exceptions under EU law that says that it's not illegal temporarily for a foreigner. Caratow used to provide A4 sheets in various languages with the requisite information for the benefit of the authorities.

Edited by 21st Century Man on Monday 20th April 16:43

[oblio]

Can't really comment but I am aware that it's an EU wide ban and folks have been getting stopped in the EU...specifically France and Spain.

Given the almost total lack of A Frames in use this year when we were down in Spain (and we drive from the tunnel to the Costa del Sol and then make our way up the Med coast) I would suggest that it is 100% not a risk worth taking...

...'000's of Germans/French/Dutch can't be wrong!

[21st Century Man]

The Police stopping people both before we left the EU and during the transition period are mistaken, they're wrong, the EU rules say so. It may be illegal for a local but not for a visitor from where it is legal. My guess is that the majority of tourists are doing what they're told if stopped and complying, and those few that are challenging it are being let on their way after a few hours inconvenience when the Police have looked it up. The caratow document is for just that scenario, it takes them directly to the specific legislation.

Similar example: Right hand drive cars are illegal and banned in Poland, but despite that a foreigner can drive a rhd car in Poland and it would be laughable for the Polish Police to pull a British tourist over in Poland for driving an illegal and banned rhd car.

(Incidentally the ECJ has also ruled that a Pole can have a rhd car in Poland too, under FoM if they've been in the UK, they can keep it and register it, even though it's illegal under Polish law).

[R0G]

fesuvious said:

Neismann & Bischoff - N&B

C1E is up to 7.5T rigid vehicle. From and on which you can tow up to 3.5T.

Only with full C1+E but Not with the pre 1997 restriction code which limits the total plated MAM to 8.250

Pre 97 is for example
7.5 + 750kgs
6.0 + 2250kgs
4.75 + 3500kgs

[oblio]

21st Century Man said:

The Police stopping people both before we left the EU and during the transition period are mistaken, they're wrong, the EU rules say so. It may be illegal for a local but not for a visitor from where it is legal. My guess is that the majority of tourists are doing what they're told if stopped and complying, and those few that are challenging it are being let on their way after a few hours inconvenience when the Police have looked it up. The caratow document is for just that scenario, it takes them directly to the specific legislation.

You are right and I was wrong. My error.

More here...

https://www.lnbleisure.co.uk/index.php/2/

[21st Century Man]

Nice link. Thanks.

The way it reads suggests that they can still be used without the cover of the EU umbrella too, as it references the Vienna road traffic convention.

[2Btoo]

oblio said:

https://www.lnbleisure.co.uk/index.php/2/

Interesting read, thanks for the link.

That says that the vacuum servo braking system on the towcar (i.e. car being towed) needs to be working. How do they achieve that without the engine running?