GT86 Road and Track Car
Discussion
I've had a lot of different cars, I like to try all sorts and can generally get driving enjoyment out of anything, I've had a few sports cars including my GT86, which I've owned for over 2 years now and I'm still loving it as much as the day I test drove it, if not a little bit more.
I'm slowly doing bits to the car to make it more track friendly while keeping it as a usable road car, so I thought I'd document it here.
I'd had it in my head to buy one since they first came out - I liked the idea of it, but I raced up and down the country and occasionally in Europe so a comfy barge for me plus a family car for my young family were the order of the day.
in 2017 I was sharing cars with a friend in both the CSCC Modern Classics and C1 Endurance series which didn't leave many weekends free between April and October.
Fun cars were race cars because with a full time job and racing I rarely had time at weekends to enjoy a road drive, despite living among some of the best driving roads in the country.
However, at the end of 2017 I'd decided to cut back on the racing and spend more weekends at home so driven by the furore surrounding the Golf R I bought an estate thinking it would combine the family car and fun car elements.
Only it didn't. I realise I'm going against received wisdom here but although it was certainly fast and technologically amazing for the money, as a driver I just felt uninvolved most of the time. Roads I had loved in my Exige years before were dull; by the time you started to feel much through the Golf's chassis you were travelling at licence losing speeds and even then, it wasn't the sharp tool I'd expected. It bored me. Most of the time it was a family hack. I wasn't racing much anymore and neither did I have a car I could go for an early Sunday blat in.
However in early 2018 my dilemma was resolved for me by some scrotes who broke into the house and relieved me of the car, never to be seen again.
Now was the time to scratch the itch, and if I didn't like it on the road a GT86 could fit into a lot of class structures in club racing, being a n/a 2 litre engine I could always convert it into a race car and find dozens of series to use it in.
With the above in mind, I found a 4 year old car at a local dealer which meant that it had a year of warranty left to fix anything drastic and when the warranty ran out, I could strip and cage the car for racing if I wanted to.
Only it never happened that way; my wife who test-drove the car first just looked at me after 100 yards, rolled her eyes and said "Oh s
t. You're going to like this car" (she's never liked my sports cars) and she was right.
Everything feels conected, the car pivots round the driver even at low speeds - it's light for a tin top (1250kg or so) and the Boxer engine sits low so it changes direction really quickly, the engine revs (above 4k, more on that later) well and if you keep it on the boil it feels all of it's 190bhp and a little more - not Golf fast, certainly not Porsche fast but more communicative than either which means you're having fun everywhere and every speed. The only cars I've driven that had more overall feel have been Lotuses, Sevens and the like.
It was great for Sunday blats up into the Dales:
and it was OK on track:
but it was definitely a better road car than track car, out of the box. On the trackday pictured above I managed to set fire to the brake pads and on the Nexen tyres it came with it wasn't the sharpest.
And on the road it had some shortcomings, mainly NVH and ICE/connectivity. I needed to get to work on it.....
I'm slowly doing bits to the car to make it more track friendly while keeping it as a usable road car, so I thought I'd document it here.
I'd had it in my head to buy one since they first came out - I liked the idea of it, but I raced up and down the country and occasionally in Europe so a comfy barge for me plus a family car for my young family were the order of the day.
in 2017 I was sharing cars with a friend in both the CSCC Modern Classics and C1 Endurance series which didn't leave many weekends free between April and October.
Fun cars were race cars because with a full time job and racing I rarely had time at weekends to enjoy a road drive, despite living among some of the best driving roads in the country.
However, at the end of 2017 I'd decided to cut back on the racing and spend more weekends at home so driven by the furore surrounding the Golf R I bought an estate thinking it would combine the family car and fun car elements.
Only it didn't. I realise I'm going against received wisdom here but although it was certainly fast and technologically amazing for the money, as a driver I just felt uninvolved most of the time. Roads I had loved in my Exige years before were dull; by the time you started to feel much through the Golf's chassis you were travelling at licence losing speeds and even then, it wasn't the sharp tool I'd expected. It bored me. Most of the time it was a family hack. I wasn't racing much anymore and neither did I have a car I could go for an early Sunday blat in.
However in early 2018 my dilemma was resolved for me by some scrotes who broke into the house and relieved me of the car, never to be seen again.
Now was the time to scratch the itch, and if I didn't like it on the road a GT86 could fit into a lot of class structures in club racing, being a n/a 2 litre engine I could always convert it into a race car and find dozens of series to use it in.
With the above in mind, I found a 4 year old car at a local dealer which meant that it had a year of warranty left to fix anything drastic and when the warranty ran out, I could strip and cage the car for racing if I wanted to.
Only it never happened that way; my wife who test-drove the car first just looked at me after 100 yards, rolled her eyes and said "Oh s
t. You're going to like this car" (she's never liked my sports cars) and she was right.Everything feels conected, the car pivots round the driver even at low speeds - it's light for a tin top (1250kg or so) and the Boxer engine sits low so it changes direction really quickly, the engine revs (above 4k, more on that later) well and if you keep it on the boil it feels all of it's 190bhp and a little more - not Golf fast, certainly not Porsche fast but more communicative than either which means you're having fun everywhere and every speed. The only cars I've driven that had more overall feel have been Lotuses, Sevens and the like.
It was great for Sunday blats up into the Dales:
and it was OK on track:
but it was definitely a better road car than track car, out of the box. On the trackday pictured above I managed to set fire to the brake pads and on the Nexen tyres it came with it wasn't the sharpest.
And on the road it had some shortcomings, mainly NVH and ICE/connectivity. I needed to get to work on it.....
Edited by Mark Benson on Thursday 18th June 11:42
First up was the inside, it's quite noisy on the motorway and as I planned to do a lot of trackdays round the country, I wanted to sort that out a bit, as well as some better speakers and a more up-to-date head unit.
So first purchase was a Pioneer HU (DAB+ and Car Play) and some Focal speakers with some sound deadening (mostly acoustic foam as it's light, with sound mat used sparingly on the larger panels and behind the speakers).
No pictures of installation, but trim removal on the GT86 is a simple affair and and it goes back without extra rattles. The Focal speakers are specifically designed for certain Toyota models so are sized for the aperatures and come with the correct connectors - an absolute doddle to fit.
At the same time I fitted the new HU, I also replaced the tacky looking trim on the dash with one from a BRZ, which matches the car well.
Before
After
So first purchase was a Pioneer HU (DAB+ and Car Play) and some Focal speakers with some sound deadening (mostly acoustic foam as it's light, with sound mat used sparingly on the larger panels and behind the speakers).
No pictures of installation, but trim removal on the GT86 is a simple affair and and it goes back without extra rattles. The Focal speakers are specifically designed for certain Toyota models so are sized for the aperatures and come with the correct connectors - an absolute doddle to fit.
At the same time I fitted the new HU, I also replaced the tacky looking trim on the dash with one from a BRZ, which matches the car well.
Before
After
Edited by Mark Benson on Thursday 18th June 14:09
Mark Benson said:
Only it never happened that way; my wife who test-drove the car first just looked at me after 100 yards, rolled her eyes and said "Oh st. You're going to like this car" (she's never liked my sports cars) and she was right.
Haha. Excellent.t. You're going to like this car" (she's never liked my sports cars) and she was right.Nice write up. Not helping me save some money.
What are your plans to improve nvh whilst still being a good track car. Unless have better sounding music is enough
After the changes above, it was time to start the process of making the car better suited to the track - there were 2 main things for me initally; braking and grip plus the fact that I'd been sliding about on the leather seat on track and was having to hang onto the steering wheel through some corners.
I bought a set of Team Dynamics wheels, we've used them on a lot of race cars and they've always been durable and also pretty light, and Demon Tweeks did a deal on a set of 8x18" wheels, slightly bigger than the stock 7x17" setup. I also bought a set of AD08RS tyres at the same time to replace the tired Nexens the car came with.
I went for 18" wheels so I could have a better choice of brake upgrade, which brings me on to....
The brakes on the car are fine most of the time, it's not a heavy car but repeated stopping from high speeds on track highlights that they're still only road brakes. I tried more track-oriented pads, but still managed to get fade (and the occasional burning pad) on trackdays, so I decided to look for a big brake kit.
I'd decided on an AP setup from Reyland, when I spotted someone on a GT86 forum selling their 6-pot kit for £400 less than list with only a few thousand miles on them, so off I went to Lincolnshire to collect them.
Before
After
The observant among you will notice that the caliper in the second picture is the LH one on the RH wheel, I'd only loosely fitted it to check clearances.
They look good behind the black TD wheels though.
At the same time I fitted Goodridge braided hoses.
I then turned my attention to seating and found a Sparco fibreglass seat that was almost as light as a lot of carbon fibre seats at under 8kg, the supplier (GSM Performance) also sold GT86 specific seat mounts so the swap was pretty simple (apart from shearing one of the OEM bolts holding the seat onto the floor of the car) and I still have sliders so my wife can move the seat forward to drive.
A couple of other cosmetic changes over the last few months - I have begun to spray the silver plastic trim in the cabin black, the silver looks really cheap and with a bit of time and cutting compound, the black trim looks OEM. No pictures as yet, must try to get some.
Also, the chap I bought the brakes off had some '86' badges which looked quite good, I'm not a badge snob but I like the design so off came the Toyota badges front and back and on went....
I've also debadged the rear of the car, which looked messy with different scripts.
So, last Friday I finally got to try out all the changes I'd made on a trackday at my local circuit, Croft. I was absolutely torrential in the morning, but even on AD08s, the car was really stable and planted. It was actually quite difficult to provoke the tail, even in the pouring rain. The car was significantly quicker round the track than a lot of the more powerful and lighter stuff by way of the fact I could brake so much later than most cars - less weight than the heavy stuff but enough weight over the front wheels that I could brake harder than the Sevens, which were having a hard time with grip. I had an absolute ball all morning and the car stood up well to repeated lapping.
In the afternoon the track started to dry out and the lack of power became more apparent - cars I was lapping quicker than in the wet were driving away from me in the drying conditions although the 86 was still huge amounts of fun and with the wheel and tyre setup, the car has a lot of lateral grip.
It was still quicker than a Golf R though
The brakes were even more effective in the damp, standing the car on it's nose - best track upgrade to the car by far and I can't wait to try them out on a properly dry track (Donington next month with any luck).
So I have a car that hasn't lost anything on the road, but has definitely gained on track, what next?
Not suspension - it was capable enough on the standard suspension on track, and a harder setup would spoil it's road manners I suspect - I do have some polybushes for the anti-roll bars though, they were a little rattly after hopping too many kerbs at Croft so need replacing anyway.
Power? I'm torn. On the one hand I love the fizzy, immediate nature of a n/a engine but it definitely feels like another 100hp wouldn't ruin the car and would make it properly, properly quick on track (considering what it keeps up with in the wet). A supercharger would add weight and only another 70hp or so, a turbo would bring it up around the 300hp mark (which the standard internals can handle) but even the best map would lose the immediacy of the n/a engine.
Tuning Develoments in Cheshire do a £1500 n/a remap and header swap which eliminates the flat spot under 4k revs these cars suffer from. By all accounts it transforms the car and with a lighter flywheel and possibly even a lighter propshaft it might be a good compromise. Also, as they use a new ECU the transition to forced induction is cheaper if I want to go that way.
I also feel like I should baffle the sump, just to be safe.
As it is though, I have the car I set out to make, good on road and track, with room for more updates as I go. I really do like this car...
I bought a set of Team Dynamics wheels, we've used them on a lot of race cars and they've always been durable and also pretty light, and Demon Tweeks did a deal on a set of 8x18" wheels, slightly bigger than the stock 7x17" setup. I also bought a set of AD08RS tyres at the same time to replace the tired Nexens the car came with.
I went for 18" wheels so I could have a better choice of brake upgrade, which brings me on to....
The brakes on the car are fine most of the time, it's not a heavy car but repeated stopping from high speeds on track highlights that they're still only road brakes. I tried more track-oriented pads, but still managed to get fade (and the occasional burning pad) on trackdays, so I decided to look for a big brake kit.
I'd decided on an AP setup from Reyland, when I spotted someone on a GT86 forum selling their 6-pot kit for £400 less than list with only a few thousand miles on them, so off I went to Lincolnshire to collect them.
Before
After
The observant among you will notice that the caliper in the second picture is the LH one on the RH wheel, I'd only loosely fitted it to check clearances.
They look good behind the black TD wheels though.
At the same time I fitted Goodridge braided hoses.
I then turned my attention to seating and found a Sparco fibreglass seat that was almost as light as a lot of carbon fibre seats at under 8kg, the supplier (GSM Performance) also sold GT86 specific seat mounts so the swap was pretty simple (apart from shearing one of the OEM bolts holding the seat onto the floor of the car) and I still have sliders so my wife can move the seat forward to drive.
A couple of other cosmetic changes over the last few months - I have begun to spray the silver plastic trim in the cabin black, the silver looks really cheap and with a bit of time and cutting compound, the black trim looks OEM. No pictures as yet, must try to get some.
Also, the chap I bought the brakes off had some '86' badges which looked quite good, I'm not a badge snob but I like the design so off came the Toyota badges front and back and on went....
I've also debadged the rear of the car, which looked messy with different scripts.
So, last Friday I finally got to try out all the changes I'd made on a trackday at my local circuit, Croft. I was absolutely torrential in the morning, but even on AD08s, the car was really stable and planted. It was actually quite difficult to provoke the tail, even in the pouring rain. The car was significantly quicker round the track than a lot of the more powerful and lighter stuff by way of the fact I could brake so much later than most cars - less weight than the heavy stuff but enough weight over the front wheels that I could brake harder than the Sevens, which were having a hard time with grip. I had an absolute ball all morning and the car stood up well to repeated lapping.
In the afternoon the track started to dry out and the lack of power became more apparent - cars I was lapping quicker than in the wet were driving away from me in the drying conditions although the 86 was still huge amounts of fun and with the wheel and tyre setup, the car has a lot of lateral grip.
It was still quicker than a Golf R though
The brakes were even more effective in the damp, standing the car on it's nose - best track upgrade to the car by far and I can't wait to try them out on a properly dry track (Donington next month with any luck).
So I have a car that hasn't lost anything on the road, but has definitely gained on track, what next?
Not suspension - it was capable enough on the standard suspension on track, and a harder setup would spoil it's road manners I suspect - I do have some polybushes for the anti-roll bars though, they were a little rattly after hopping too many kerbs at Croft so need replacing anyway.
Power? I'm torn. On the one hand I love the fizzy, immediate nature of a n/a engine but it definitely feels like another 100hp wouldn't ruin the car and would make it properly, properly quick on track (considering what it keeps up with in the wet). A supercharger would add weight and only another 70hp or so, a turbo would bring it up around the 300hp mark (which the standard internals can handle) but even the best map would lose the immediacy of the n/a engine.
Tuning Develoments in Cheshire do a £1500 n/a remap and header swap which eliminates the flat spot under 4k revs these cars suffer from. By all accounts it transforms the car and with a lighter flywheel and possibly even a lighter propshaft it might be a good compromise. Also, as they use a new ECU the transition to forced induction is cheaper if I want to go that way.
I also feel like I should baffle the sump, just to be safe.
As it is though, I have the car I set out to make, good on road and track, with room for more updates as I go. I really do like this car...
Edited by Mark Benson on Thursday 18th June 13:54
Edited by Mark Benson on Thursday 18th June 14:14
V6todayEVmanana said:
What are your plans to improve nvh whilst still being a good track car. Unless have better sounding music is enough
The limited sound deadening has helped, the boom from the door and rear wing panels has reduced and a lot less road noise now the acoustic foam is in. I think the next (and probably last) thing I'll do at some point is some Dynamat on the bulkhead and floor and possibly some acoustic foam above the headlining but it will be limited as I don't want to add too much weight.
Mark Benson said:
Power? I'm torn. On the one hand I love the fizzy, immediate nature of a n/a engine but it definitely feels like another 100hp wouldn't ruin the car and would make it properly, properly quick on track (considering what it keeps up with in the wet). A supercharger would add weight and only another 70hp or so, a turbo would bring it up around the 300hp mark (which the standard internals can handle) but even the best map would lose the immediacy of the n/a engine.
Tuning Develoments in Cheshire do a £1500 n/a remap and header swap which eliminates the flat spot under 4k revs these cars suffer from. By all accounts it transforms the car and with a lighter flywheel and possibly even a lighter propshaft it might be a good compromise. Also, as they use a new ECU the transition to forced induction is cheaper if I want to go that way.
I also feel like I should baffle the sump, just to be safe.
As it is though, I have the car I set out to make, good on road and track, with room for more updates as I go. I really do like this car...
My Brother has one of, if not the 1st, turbo kits from Tuning Developments on his 86 (by previous owner). Its probably been updated since it was originally done, but the clutch they installed initially with the turbo slipped a frustrating amount which meant an even more uprated clutch had to be put on. Other than that, awesome bit of kit and it leaves most hot hatches for dead on the straights as well as the twisty's Tuning Develoments in Cheshire do a £1500 n/a remap and header swap which eliminates the flat spot under 4k revs these cars suffer from. By all accounts it transforms the car and with a lighter flywheel and possibly even a lighter propshaft it might be a good compromise. Also, as they use a new ECU the transition to forced induction is cheaper if I want to go that way.
I also feel like I should baffle the sump, just to be safe.
As it is though, I have the car I set out to make, good on road and track, with room for more updates as I go. I really do like this car...
Edited by Mark Benson on Thursday 18th June 13:54
Edited by Mark Benson on Thursday 18th June 14:14
Enjoying this thread. I've bought an Integra Type R DC5 and will be tracking it soon. Only done service, brake fluid and geo to give it a go and then will improve from there. Should be similar fun with 217bhp and 1180kg! I like the idea of holding off on suspension not to spoil it's road manners.
Bensontoast said:
My Brother has one of, if not the 1st, turbo kits from Tuning Developments on his 86 (by previous owner). Its probably been updated since it was originally done, but the clutch they installed initially with the turbo slipped a frustrating amount which meant an even more uprated clutch had to be put on. Other than that, awesome bit of kit and it leaves most hot hatches for dead on the straights as well as the twisty's
If I get their n/a tune it opens the door to their turbo conversion as it uses the same ECU and headers (quite clever of them really), which is the thinking behind trying the n/a route first then taking stock.It's getting to the stage of needing a new clutch soon anyway I think, and if I was going for a lighter flywheel it makes sense to do the clutch at the same time.
One of the things I love in this car is being able to steer it in the longer corners with the throttle which is what's putting me off a turbo, you can learn to drive round the slight lag but it's never quite the same - you lose the immediate throttle which is one of the things that makes the car handle so well.
Maybe I'm talking myself into a supercharger.....
Mark Benson said:
If I get their n/a tune it opens the door to their turbo conversion as it uses the same ECU and headers (quite clever of them really), which is the thinking behind trying the n/a route first then taking stock.
It's getting to the stage of needing a new clutch soon anyway I think, and if I was going for a lighter flywheel it makes sense to do the clutch at the same time.
One of the things I love in this car is being able to steer it in the longer corners with the throttle which is what's putting me off a turbo, you can learn to drive round the slight lag but it's never quite the same - you lose the immediate throttle which is one of the things that makes the car handle so well.
Maybe I'm talking myself into a supercharger.....
Supercharger is probably the middle ground, either way should be good fun It's getting to the stage of needing a new clutch soon anyway I think, and if I was going for a lighter flywheel it makes sense to do the clutch at the same time.
One of the things I love in this car is being able to steer it in the longer corners with the throttle which is what's putting me off a turbo, you can learn to drive round the slight lag but it's never quite the same - you lose the immediate throttle which is one of the things that makes the car handle so well.
Maybe I'm talking myself into a supercharger.....
Nice bit of kit - I look forward to seeing how this develops as a GT86 is on my shortlist to (eventually) replace my E30 as a track tool. I'm also at Donington next month (4th July?) so look forward to seeing it going round.
With respect to suspension - a road/track compromised kit might not spoil road manners as much as you would expect. A lot can be said for quality damping and OEM shocks are very much cost engineered items. Something along the lines of KW V3s or Ohlins Road & Track should improve the track manners considerably, whilst allowing to modify the damping to suit your preferences/conditions - and won't make the car unbearable on the road.
On my E30 I had Koni single adjustables originally then swapped them out for KW Clubsport coilovers. The KWs have much higher spring rates than the Koni's - about 660lb on the front vs. 450lb - but they actually ride much better. The KW V3s are similar to the clubsport but with slightly lower spring rates and damping to suit so might be just what you're after.
With respect to suspension - a road/track compromised kit might not spoil road manners as much as you would expect. A lot can be said for quality damping and OEM shocks are very much cost engineered items. Something along the lines of KW V3s or Ohlins Road & Track should improve the track manners considerably, whilst allowing to modify the damping to suit your preferences/conditions - and won't make the car unbearable on the road.
On my E30 I had Koni single adjustables originally then swapped them out for KW Clubsport coilovers. The KWs have much higher spring rates than the Koni's - about 660lb on the front vs. 450lb - but they actually ride much better. The KW V3s are similar to the clubsport but with slightly lower spring rates and damping to suit so might be just what you're after.
motorhole said:
Nice bit of kit - I look forward to seeing how this develops as a GT86 is on my shortlist to (eventually) replace my E30 as a track tool. I'm also at Donington next month (4th July?) so look forward to seeing it going round.
With respect to suspension - a road/track compromised kit might not spoil road manners as much as you would expect. A lot can be said for quality damping and OEM shocks are very much cost engineered items. Something along the lines of KW V3s or Ohlins Road & Track should improve the track manners considerably, whilst allowing to modify the damping to suit your preferences/conditions - and won't make the car unbearable on the road.
On my E30 I had Koni single adjustables originally then swapped them out for KW Clubsport coilovers. The KWs have much higher spring rates than the Koni's - about 660lb on the front vs. 450lb - but they actually ride much better. The KW V3s are similar to the clubsport but with slightly lower spring rates and damping to suit so might be just what you're after.
We're at Donington on the 13th unfortunately, I've followed your build thread, would have been good to have a chat.With respect to suspension - a road/track compromised kit might not spoil road manners as much as you would expect. A lot can be said for quality damping and OEM shocks are very much cost engineered items. Something along the lines of KW V3s or Ohlins Road & Track should improve the track manners considerably, whilst allowing to modify the damping to suit your preferences/conditions - and won't make the car unbearable on the road.
On my E30 I had Koni single adjustables originally then swapped them out for KW Clubsport coilovers. The KWs have much higher spring rates than the Koni's - about 660lb on the front vs. 450lb - but they actually ride much better. The KW V3s are similar to the clubsport but with slightly lower spring rates and damping to suit so might be just what you're after.
I haven't completely ruled out suspension, but it's not top priority at the moment. The above changes have been done over a year or so and it'll probably be another year or two before I'll consider it 'finished' (are car projects like this ever finished?) so I expect the suspension question will be raised eventually. I've seen too many cars road manners compromised for 5 trackdays a year to rush into anything though.
jenksndubs said:
How did you find racing the Boxster?
It's a mate's car and when we raced it it was too heavy. He's since dropped a lot of weight (17kg from the wiring loom alone) and done some tuning, the forthcoming Donington day in July will be it's shakedown.It was a very well balanced car, but unfinished as a race car and having come from a 300bhp/tonne racecar prior to the Boxster, it felt sluggish. It'll be interesting to see how he's developed it.
Mark Benson said:
We're at Donington on the 13th unfortunately, I've followed your build thread, would have been good to have a chat.
I haven't completely ruled out suspension, but it's not top priority at the moment. The above changes have been done over a year or so and it'll probably be another year or two before I'll consider it 'finished' (are car projects like this ever finished?) so I expect the suspension question will be raised eventually. I've seen too many cars road manners compromised for 5 trackdays a year to rush into anything though.
Yes, shame! Would've been good to have a chat. And as you've probably worked out from my thread, I'm exactly that guy I haven't completely ruled out suspension, but it's not top priority at the moment. The above changes have been done over a year or so and it'll probably be another year or two before I'll consider it 'finished' (are car projects like this ever finished?) so I expect the suspension question will be raised eventually. I've seen too many cars road manners compromised for 5 trackdays a year to rush into anything though.
Though tbh it's the noise, lack of stereo/radio and floor-mounted pedal box that make it most inaccessible. So next car will be more 'clubsport' spec rather than road-legal race car. Whenever that may be.Nevertheless I look forward to seeing how this progresses and no doubt we'll end up at the same place at the same time at some point!
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