996tt Engine Upgrades
Discussion
A friend of mineis seriously considering spending c£1600 on an ecu remap and chip change on his TT. Some company based down in Hampshire area. Claimed uplift to over 500bhp. Is this possible, are there consequential reliability/failure problems and what about his opc extended warranty??
Any views welcomed:):)
Any views welcomed:):)
Do a few searches on here, plus search rennlist.com too, lots of good stuff.
Though in summary, from my understanding:
1) Your mate needs to be very selective in who he lets mess with the car
2) Don't believe the hype re numbers, standard K16 turbo cars (i.e. non X50) can produce a max of 490 on a rolling road with a sports exhaust from someone like AMD. If a firm says higher then they are fibbing, or if the car is making the power then the turbos will wear out alot quicker.
3) If its done right then longevity should not be affected.
4) Re warranty, even though firms say the remap is not detectable, I have heard tales of ecu's been investigated closely when engines have blown, and warranty claims rejected. At £30-40k (?) for a new engine, I am sure Porsche will use all their tools to investigate the cause of the failure prior to paying out under warranty.
Though in summary, from my understanding:
1) Your mate needs to be very selective in who he lets mess with the car
2) Don't believe the hype re numbers, standard K16 turbo cars (i.e. non X50) can produce a max of 490 on a rolling road with a sports exhaust from someone like AMD. If a firm says higher then they are fibbing, or if the car is making the power then the turbos will wear out alot quicker.
3) If its done right then longevity should not be affected.
4) Re warranty, even though firms say the remap is not detectable, I have heard tales of ecu's been investigated closely when engines have blown, and warranty claims rejected. At £30-40k (?) for a new engine, I am sure Porsche will use all their tools to investigate the cause of the failure prior to paying out under warranty.
There was a GT2 in Porsche Reading's workshop when my GT2 was last in that had a melted engine, they told me they had read the ECU and knew what had been loaded when and that it was not a Porsche map....
The guy was looking at a £40k+ bill for a new engine and work.... I don't know what map was fitted, but they did tell me they can now see just by doing a detailed diagnostic that the map is different and even if a new map has been added and then removed before service.... so even the add and remove upgrade maps can be detected...
With the cost of the engine under warranty you can't blame them really....
IMHO if you want more power the only 'safe' way to do it is to go to RUF, Techart, Roock, etc. who will warrant they work they do and the entire engine and drive train.... but the guy at Porsche was saying they now find 1 in 5 Turbo's are running 3rd party maps now... so they are popular, just be careful of any big bills on the horizon.
The guy was looking at a £40k+ bill for a new engine and work.... I don't know what map was fitted, but they did tell me they can now see just by doing a detailed diagnostic that the map is different and even if a new map has been added and then removed before service.... so even the add and remove upgrade maps can be detected...
With the cost of the engine under warranty you can't blame them really....
IMHO if you want more power the only 'safe' way to do it is to go to RUF, Techart, Roock, etc. who will warrant they work they do and the entire engine and drive train.... but the guy at Porsche was saying they now find 1 in 5 Turbo's are running 3rd party maps now... so they are popular, just be careful of any big bills on the horizon.
The Hampshire outfit I think is DMS.
They have done lots & lots of ECU upgrades on Turbo's & GT2's. Along with AMD I think these 2 are the most popular upgrades.
DMS load on a pre-programmed map (though I understand there are subtle differences for model years) AMD rolling road the car before & after fitting a customized map to the particular car. Obviously this is the better choice but the AMD re-map is quite a lot more expensive than the DMS (DMS is around £2k I believe)
Not heard any horror stories from anyone with a DMS chip though, most seem extremely pleased.
I think DMS claim 505bhp & 490lbs for a standard Turbo, would be good to hear from anyone who has rolling road tested their car afterwards to see if this is realistic.
I am keeping mine as standard, though I have been in my mates ECU modified TT & it’s an absolute rocket-ship.
Ro.
They have done lots & lots of ECU upgrades on Turbo's & GT2's. Along with AMD I think these 2 are the most popular upgrades.
DMS load on a pre-programmed map (though I understand there are subtle differences for model years) AMD rolling road the car before & after fitting a customized map to the particular car. Obviously this is the better choice but the AMD re-map is quite a lot more expensive than the DMS (DMS is around £2k I believe)
Not heard any horror stories from anyone with a DMS chip though, most seem extremely pleased.
I think DMS claim 505bhp & 490lbs for a standard Turbo, would be good to hear from anyone who has rolling road tested their car afterwards to see if this is realistic.
I am keeping mine as standard, though I have been in my mates ECU modified TT & it’s an absolute rocket-ship.
Ro.
I would assume that the power figs from AMD/DMS would be pretty accurate.
I mean its easy to stick your car on a rolling road after such an upgrade & if it made no where near the stated figures then they would have a lot of p1ssed off customers, plus with forums like this pretty soon the word would get around & they would be getting no new customers / a bad reputation.
Ro.
I mean its easy to stick your car on a rolling road after such an upgrade & if it made no where near the stated figures then they would have a lot of p1ssed off customers, plus with forums like this pretty soon the word would get around & they would be getting no new customers / a bad reputation.
Ro.
Indeed DMS is the company being looked at by my mate. My concern about a non Porsche modification is the effect that it would have if you declared it to prospective purchasers. After all a TT is not in the same market sector as a scooby or an evo is it??(Can feel a flame coming on - therefore no offence intended)
When Steven Dome was developing Ecutek for Imprezas, Subaru offered him access to the source code if he didn't mess with the flash counter.
This gave him what he wanted and gave Subaru the opportunity to read the number of re-flashes.
As the flash counter only changes on every flash, along with a load of other info, it would be almost impossible for a tuner to find it and find how to control it. It gave Subaru the chance to see if an ecu had been re-flashed.
AMD also offered a Subaru re-flash but as far as I know they did not know the workings of the re-flash counter.
This gave him what he wanted and gave Subaru the opportunity to read the number of re-flashes.
As the flash counter only changes on every flash, along with a load of other info, it would be almost impossible for a tuner to find it and find how to control it. It gave Subaru the chance to see if an ecu had been re-flashed.
AMD also offered a Subaru re-flash but as far as I know they did not know the workings of the re-flash counter.
An undetectable re-flash is pure BS in my opinion.
They would only have to compare the settings for fueling and boost and ignition advance to see it's different from their stock settings. Porsche have spent years and tens of millions of pounds mapping the 996TT engine, with vast teams of engineers. Does anyones seriously think that they would not know someone has changed their software codes, if they were looking for it?
It might not be obviously detectable if they simply plug in their diagnostic machine to check a simple fault code, but I know for a fact if there's an engine failure the entire ecu contents are downloaded and sent to Porsche GB for test purposes.
Guy
They would only have to compare the settings for fueling and boost and ignition advance to see it's different from their stock settings. Porsche have spent years and tens of millions of pounds mapping the 996TT engine, with vast teams of engineers. Does anyones seriously think that they would not know someone has changed their software codes, if they were looking for it?
It might not be obviously detectable if they simply plug in their diagnostic machine to check a simple fault code, but I know for a fact if there's an engine failure the entire ecu contents are downloaded and sent to Porsche GB for test purposes.
Guy
GuyR said:
An undetectable re-flash is pure BS in my opinion.
They would only have to compare the settings for fueling and boost and ignition advance to see it's different from their stock settings. Porsche have spent years and tens of millions of pounds mapping the 996TT engine, with vast teams of engineers. Does anyones seriously think that they would not know someone has changed their software codes, if they were looking for it?
It might not be obviously detectable if they simply plug in their diagnostic machine to check a simple fault code, but I know for a fact if there's an engine failure the entire ecu contents are downloaded and sent to Porsche GB for test purposes.
Guy
I agree. However, doesn't the 996 have an "adaptive" ECU which changes the map depending upon how the car is driven.
A few years ago my 996 C4 failed it's MOT (at an independant test centre) on emissions. took it back to the OPC who "reset" the ECU to factory settings. Then went back to the MOT station, and the car passed with absolutely no problems. OPC didn't even charge me for the reset !!!
Resetting the ECU can be done as easily as disconnecting the battery for a short space of time, this will revert the ECU back to factory settings.
I have often wondered if the ECU learns real time, as often my TT can feel sluggish & unresponsive if driven slow through traffic for most of the day, but then a few minutes of "spirited driving" on an open road & the car feels much more alive & responsive.....or is it just me?
Ro.
I have often wondered if the ECU learns real time, as often my TT can feel sluggish & unresponsive if driven slow through traffic for most of the day, but then a few minutes of "spirited driving" on an open road & the car feels much more alive & responsive.....or is it just me?
Ro.
Deep said:
A new engine cannot really cost £40k can it????
Why not. Ring up an OPC and ask for parts; they'll tell you. With their mark up and VAT an engine in a 100k car may be that quite easily.
The Lotus Carlton engine was 26k+VAT from Vauxhall parts and that was a 377bhp engine in a 50k car. And it was made of chocolate.
roshambo said:
Resetting the ECU can be done as easily as disconnecting the battery for a short space of time, this will revert the ECU back to factory settings.
I have often wondered if the ECU learns real time, as often my TT can feel sluggish & unresponsive if driven slow through traffic for most of the day, but then a few minutes of "spirited driving" on an open road & the car feels much more alive & responsive.....or is it just me?
Ro.
Removing the battery may remove the adaptive settings but I cannot believe it will put the map back to standard on a re-mapped car, as the map is no longer there it has been replaced. If what you said was true, if my battery was flat or changed or disconnected (as it has been) then my car would have to go back to Germany to Ruf to be able to drive properly again.
I thought disconnecting the battery only re-set the adaptive part of the Ecu map....the original pattern as set by the manufacturer or tuner will remain intact.
I thought the after market remapping in the wrong hands would be a nightmare, i am suprised at the lack of problems or indeed catastrophes reported.
I thought the after market remapping in the wrong hands would be a nightmare, i am suprised at the lack of problems or indeed catastrophes reported.
Its unlikely that a remap will lead to catastrophic engine failure though. Just more likely to need a rebuild earlier in its life, which is what would put me off buying a remapped car.
I guess most people with DMS maps etc, will get the custom map flashed out before trying to make a warranty claim for engine issues.
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