Testarossa @£34k or 512TR at £49k?
Discussion
Rare contributor but a question for you:
First ferrari issue. Help. I am looking at buying, ideally, a 512TR next year. I know all about the differences between the regular TR and the 512TR. I am the sort of person that would pay the extra for the additional power, handling, better chassis and engineering, etc, etc that the 512 represents. What I am after is views on whether I really should be looking at a regular (say, 89-91) post facelift TR and keep cash in reserve for any trouble. I am expecting a little off the price for cash but that is not really relevant to this discussion.
I could afford either but the thought of paying £15k more (ie nearly 40%) for the 512 seems painful (even though I still think the 512 now represents fantastic value in absolute terms).
If I factor in a £5k slush fund for servicing and insurance it is £40k total plays £55k...
For all practical purposes do I get most of the "TR bang" for 60% of the price of a 512?
Just so I am clear I am erring towards the 512 but damn the late model TRs are good value. I could put the £15k towards something else!
First ferrari issue. Help. I am looking at buying, ideally, a 512TR next year. I know all about the differences between the regular TR and the 512TR. I am the sort of person that would pay the extra for the additional power, handling, better chassis and engineering, etc, etc that the 512 represents. What I am after is views on whether I really should be looking at a regular (say, 89-91) post facelift TR and keep cash in reserve for any trouble. I am expecting a little off the price for cash but that is not really relevant to this discussion.
I could afford either but the thought of paying £15k more (ie nearly 40%) for the 512 seems painful (even though I still think the 512 now represents fantastic value in absolute terms).
If I factor in a £5k slush fund for servicing and insurance it is £40k total plays £55k...
For all practical purposes do I get most of the "TR bang" for 60% of the price of a 512?
Just so I am clear I am erring towards the 512 but damn the late model TRs are good value. I could put the £15k towards something else!
dazren said:
At a budget of £49k I'd also be considering spending a bit extra on a 550 with more power and luggage space for blasting around Europe at every opportunity.
DAZ
ah yes, but you're the conservative shy retiring type Daz
Seriously, I love the look of the 550, but the TestaRossa is one of THE archetypal Ferraris with a road presence like few others.
Point taken re 550. I have already managed to put aside (with difficulty) thoughts of both 550 and 456 as I want what I consider to be a legendary car and something a little more uncompromising. Its also an Enzo era car which does it for me. 550 and 456 are beautiful cars no doubt but sat beside a TR, even today, the TR has a particular presence, low, squat and brroding which I love - it does not look "old" really at all. It also defines an era and will one day be acclaimed (IMO) as a great car and (despite many F car owners seeming to think this in relation to their model) should not drop in price too much more.
The suggested desire to upgrade would be annoying! if I had bought a TR and run it for a while only to have to sell and upgrade to a 512 I would feel I had wasted money needlessly. I would also have to avoid driving 512s in case I set off the upgrade pangs.
I am thinking I just bite the bullet and go 512.
The suggested desire to upgrade would be annoying! if I had bought a TR and run it for a while only to have to sell and upgrade to a 512 I would feel I had wasted money needlessly. I would also have to avoid driving 512s in case I set off the upgrade pangs.
I am thinking I just bite the bullet and go 512.
but what the hell, for that extra 2mph top end and 0.3 sec faster 0-60! 
I've been in a '91 TR from London to Naples. Totally reliable and inspiring. My family have owned the car for 13 years. Admitedly little usage, but very little has had to be spent on problems.
Personally I'd go for a 512TR as it just looks that little bit more modern. Colour coded sills and bigger wheels help. If I did fault the 512TR it would be that the longer buttresses at the back make it look like a bit of a hatch back. But all considered I would go with the newer car.
Having said that, my father would always go for the original TR, as he doesn't believe in attempting to modernise a classic.
One thing's for sure, whatever you choose you'll be getting a bargain.
Personally I'd go for a 512TR as it just looks that little bit more modern. Colour coded sills and bigger wheels help. If I did fault the 512TR it would be that the longer buttresses at the back make it look like a bit of a hatch back. But all considered I would go with the newer car.
Having said that, my father would always go for the original TR, as he doesn't believe in attempting to modernise a classic.
One thing's for sure, whatever you choose you'll be getting a bargain.
Persoanlly i would buy the 512 because it is a much better car that an original TR. I prefer the looks both inside and out. The clutch is so much better to operate coz it is lighter, thus making it more enjoyable to drive. I love the sound of both although they do sound slightly different.
Just the small changes everywhere make it the better car as a package, good luck in your purchase because either car is fantastic
Just the small changes everywhere make it the better car as a package, good luck in your purchase because either car is fantastic
I do find it funny that typically, when people (including myself) compare Testarossa & 512TR & 512M they always talk about the styling - body coloured side skirts and different lights etc.
Ferrari put years of effort into improving the car, but yet 10 years on all we notice are the pretty bits.
You know, the 512TR was far more than just colour coding. The floor pan was strengthened at high stress points by chromium-molybdenum steel. New welding techniques further strengthened joints. Possibly the biggest chassis change was the fact that the drivetrain and rear suspension were directly mounted on the (full) rear frame. Thus it had increased torsional rigidity, and decreased weight.
The TR also had larger (cross drilled) brake discs, and better calipers (larger pistons). The brake system proportioning valve was also revised to improve control and reduce pedal effort. (Coupled with a lighter clutch, this meant you no longer needed legs like Sly Stallone). Later cars had ABS....!!
Even the steering column was revised, with the rack changed to allow quicker steering.
All in all the TR was fantastic. Yes, it was tweaking, and this doesn't *always* work (look at late Lambo Countachs, ugly as sin and still crap). But if you actually want to drive the car, you'll notice the improvements with the TR no doubt.
Just remember to look past the colour coded sills and new lights.
Good luck.
Ferrari put years of effort into improving the car, but yet 10 years on all we notice are the pretty bits.
You know, the 512TR was far more than just colour coding. The floor pan was strengthened at high stress points by chromium-molybdenum steel. New welding techniques further strengthened joints. Possibly the biggest chassis change was the fact that the drivetrain and rear suspension were directly mounted on the (full) rear frame. Thus it had increased torsional rigidity, and decreased weight.
The TR also had larger (cross drilled) brake discs, and better calipers (larger pistons). The brake system proportioning valve was also revised to improve control and reduce pedal effort. (Coupled with a lighter clutch, this meant you no longer needed legs like Sly Stallone). Later cars had ABS....!!
Even the steering column was revised, with the rack changed to allow quicker steering.
All in all the TR was fantastic. Yes, it was tweaking, and this doesn't *always* work (look at late Lambo Countachs, ugly as sin and still crap). But if you actually want to drive the car, you'll notice the improvements with the TR no doubt.
Just remember to look past the colour coded sills and new lights.
Good luck.
luciano said:
I do find it funny that typically, when people (including myself) compare Testarossa & 512TR & 512M they always talk about the styling - body coloured side skirts and different lights etc.
Ferrari put years of effort into improving the car, but yet 10 years on all we notice are the pretty bits.
You know, the 512TR was far more than just colour coding. The floor pan was strengthened at high stress points by chromium-molybdenum steel. New welding techniques further strengthened joints. Possibly the biggest chassis change was the fact that the drivetrain and rear suspension were directly mounted on the (full) rear frame. Thus it had increased torsional rigidity, and decreased weight.
The TR also had larger (cross drilled) brake discs, and better calipers (larger pistons). The brake system proportioning valve was also revised to improve control and reduce pedal effort. (Coupled with a lighter clutch, this meant you no longer needed legs like Sly Stallone). Later cars had ABS....!!
Even the steering column was revised, with the rack changed to allow quicker steering.
All in all the TR was fantastic. Yes, it was tweaking, and this doesn't *always* work (look at late Lambo Countachs, ugly as sin and still crap). But if you actually want to drive the car, you'll notice the improvements with the TR no doubt.
Just remember to look past the colour coded sills and new lights.
Good luck.
the engine was lowered it sits 1 inch lower than a testarossa and not in a frame like test/355/348 and to do the belts the engine comes out the top unlike the others then on the F512M they had a different gearbox also
Thanks all. I think 512 is still in the lead for me. Will be an easier sell to her indoors too.
People I have spoken to describe the TR and 512TR as almost different cars. Here are a summary of the differences from an old FChat thread for those who were not aware how extensive the chnages were:
Engine- The engine blocks in both are flat 12 boxer engine cast in light alloy, with crankshaft having seven main bearings, four valves per cylinder with each cylinder bank having two overhead cams. Other changes and similarities in the two are as follows:
1. Bore and stroke of 82mm by 78mm, 4942 cc capacity (unchanged);
2. HP increased from 380hp SAE to 421, with most of the increase coming from a redesign of the intake manifolds, a repositioning of the injectors, and a recalibration of the injectors, and a recalibration of the engine management system, the later controlling the integrated electronic fuel injection system;
3. Torque increased from 354lb ft to 360;
4. 0-60mph, 5.7 sec to 4.8;
5. Top speed- 180mph to 192;
6. New cylinder liner manufactured in aluminum with Nikasil coating;
7. New pistons due to larger intake valves;
8. Increase in compression ratio (10.1 to1)
9. Modified cylinder head gaskets due to a higher compression ratio and a different cylinder head coolant circulation layout;
10. Reinforced camshafts of a new profile;
11. Valve tappets with a new design bucket and springs;
12. New intake valves of a larger diameter;
13. Separate air boxes with filters, with a dynamic air intake;
14. Longer and straighter air intake manifolds;
15. Integrated electronic fuel injection system and ignition (Bosch Motronic 2.7) with self-diagnostic capabilities, and with ECU located in the cockpit;
16. Double independent submergible fuel pumps;
17. Exhaust manifolds with new layout;
18. Metallic type pre-catalyst converters;
19. Exhaust muffler with resonators and new heat shields;
20. Aluminum oil radiator with U circulation and without fan, allowing for better permeability; aluminum tubing;
21. Dual copper water radiators with U circulation in series and new aluminum tubing;
22. Coolant expansion tank located between intake manifolds;
23. More powerful alternator;
24. Secondary air pump with new air distribution pattern.
Chassis- Up front, the chassis frame was strengthened around specific points; for example, the steering rack mounts and the front suspension mounts. Highly stressed frame pieces are made of a special chromium-molybdenum steel. At the rear, the old engine sub frame has been done away with. To gain a noticeable increase in stiffness, the rear frame was made an integral part of the entire chassis. The engine is now lifted out from above. Around the passenger compartment, the steel platform, rear bench, front and rear firewalls, and pillars are all welded directly to the tubes of the chassis. End result is that chassis flex has been reduced by 25% and torsional rigidity has been increased by 12.5%. Other chassis specifics as noted by Ferrari:
1. Weight reduction of 40kg/88lbs;
2. Lower center of gravity;
3. Reduction of unsprung weight;
4. Steering points in aluminum alloy;
5. New steering column shaft design;
6. New steering rack with longer arms and more direct ratios;
7. New steering moment offset;
8. Bilstein gas shock absorbers with aluminum body and adjustable plate;
9. New shock absorber settings;
10. Lighter weight springs.
Gearbox and Differential
1. Limited slip differential (40%) with reduced axial thrust to increase reliability;
2. New transfer gear ratio;
3. Strengthened transfer gears;
4. New synchronizer pre-loading springs;
5. Gear shift lever housing with sliding ball bearings;
6. New selector and modified gear shift lever inclination;
7. New single plate clutch with reduced inertia and asbestos free clutch linings;
8. Entire gearbox and transmission strengthened throughout.
Brakes
1. Larger front discs, 315mm x 32mm, with cross drilled braking surface;
2. Larger rear discs, 310 mm x 28mm, with cross drilled braking surface;
3. Aluminum calipers with larger pistons: front 44/40mm; rear: 40/36mm;
4. New ducts for brake cooling;
5. New brake proportioning valve;
6. Brake pedal ratio is more direct;
7. Redesigned hand brake with reduced application effort.
Wheels and Tires
1. Front wheels increased from 16” to 8” x 18” with 235/40 ZR 18 tires;
2. Rear wheels increased from 16” to 10.5” x 18” with 295/35 ZR 18 tires.
Styling Changes
1. New trapezoidal shaped air intake scoops on front with prancing horse;
2. Body colored front spoiler;
3. New profile to the C pillar fins in the rear sections with elimination of vents in sail panels;
4. Integral air intake slots added to the engine cover;
5. Rear lights are now dual colored and a redesign of the underbumper to change aesthetics of the exhaust system and exhaust outlets.
6. Wheels redesigned;
7. Interior restyled with elimination of center console and repositioning of the corresponding instruments under the central part of the dashboard.
8. Door panels and armrests have been changed.
Seems worth the extra to me!
People I have spoken to describe the TR and 512TR as almost different cars. Here are a summary of the differences from an old FChat thread for those who were not aware how extensive the chnages were:
Engine- The engine blocks in both are flat 12 boxer engine cast in light alloy, with crankshaft having seven main bearings, four valves per cylinder with each cylinder bank having two overhead cams. Other changes and similarities in the two are as follows:
1. Bore and stroke of 82mm by 78mm, 4942 cc capacity (unchanged);
2. HP increased from 380hp SAE to 421, with most of the increase coming from a redesign of the intake manifolds, a repositioning of the injectors, and a recalibration of the injectors, and a recalibration of the engine management system, the later controlling the integrated electronic fuel injection system;
3. Torque increased from 354lb ft to 360;
4. 0-60mph, 5.7 sec to 4.8;
5. Top speed- 180mph to 192;
6. New cylinder liner manufactured in aluminum with Nikasil coating;
7. New pistons due to larger intake valves;
8. Increase in compression ratio (10.1 to1)
9. Modified cylinder head gaskets due to a higher compression ratio and a different cylinder head coolant circulation layout;
10. Reinforced camshafts of a new profile;
11. Valve tappets with a new design bucket and springs;
12. New intake valves of a larger diameter;
13. Separate air boxes with filters, with a dynamic air intake;
14. Longer and straighter air intake manifolds;
15. Integrated electronic fuel injection system and ignition (Bosch Motronic 2.7) with self-diagnostic capabilities, and with ECU located in the cockpit;
16. Double independent submergible fuel pumps;
17. Exhaust manifolds with new layout;
18. Metallic type pre-catalyst converters;
19. Exhaust muffler with resonators and new heat shields;
20. Aluminum oil radiator with U circulation and without fan, allowing for better permeability; aluminum tubing;
21. Dual copper water radiators with U circulation in series and new aluminum tubing;
22. Coolant expansion tank located between intake manifolds;
23. More powerful alternator;
24. Secondary air pump with new air distribution pattern.
Chassis- Up front, the chassis frame was strengthened around specific points; for example, the steering rack mounts and the front suspension mounts. Highly stressed frame pieces are made of a special chromium-molybdenum steel. At the rear, the old engine sub frame has been done away with. To gain a noticeable increase in stiffness, the rear frame was made an integral part of the entire chassis. The engine is now lifted out from above. Around the passenger compartment, the steel platform, rear bench, front and rear firewalls, and pillars are all welded directly to the tubes of the chassis. End result is that chassis flex has been reduced by 25% and torsional rigidity has been increased by 12.5%. Other chassis specifics as noted by Ferrari:
1. Weight reduction of 40kg/88lbs;
2. Lower center of gravity;
3. Reduction of unsprung weight;
4. Steering points in aluminum alloy;
5. New steering column shaft design;
6. New steering rack with longer arms and more direct ratios;
7. New steering moment offset;
8. Bilstein gas shock absorbers with aluminum body and adjustable plate;
9. New shock absorber settings;
10. Lighter weight springs.
Gearbox and Differential
1. Limited slip differential (40%) with reduced axial thrust to increase reliability;
2. New transfer gear ratio;
3. Strengthened transfer gears;
4. New synchronizer pre-loading springs;
5. Gear shift lever housing with sliding ball bearings;
6. New selector and modified gear shift lever inclination;
7. New single plate clutch with reduced inertia and asbestos free clutch linings;
8. Entire gearbox and transmission strengthened throughout.
Brakes
1. Larger front discs, 315mm x 32mm, with cross drilled braking surface;
2. Larger rear discs, 310 mm x 28mm, with cross drilled braking surface;
3. Aluminum calipers with larger pistons: front 44/40mm; rear: 40/36mm;
4. New ducts for brake cooling;
5. New brake proportioning valve;
6. Brake pedal ratio is more direct;
7. Redesigned hand brake with reduced application effort.
Wheels and Tires
1. Front wheels increased from 16” to 8” x 18” with 235/40 ZR 18 tires;
2. Rear wheels increased from 16” to 10.5” x 18” with 295/35 ZR 18 tires.
Styling Changes
1. New trapezoidal shaped air intake scoops on front with prancing horse;
2. Body colored front spoiler;
3. New profile to the C pillar fins in the rear sections with elimination of vents in sail panels;
4. Integral air intake slots added to the engine cover;
5. Rear lights are now dual colored and a redesign of the underbumper to change aesthetics of the exhaust system and exhaust outlets.
6. Wheels redesigned;
7. Interior restyled with elimination of center console and repositioning of the corresponding instruments under the central part of the dashboard.
8. Door panels and armrests have been changed.
Seems worth the extra to me!
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