Discussion
Have I read somewhere that TVR are now doing Griff mods at the factory?? If so, does anyone know what they are cos I'd rather have an up to date Griff than a Tamora, but without the mods I'd probably go for the more modern engineering of the latter.
Although I don't know what benefits would be important to you, I'd say there's surely a huge difference in looks, performance, reliability and cost between a Griff and a Tamora. Minor suspension / trim mods to the Griff are negligeable compared to these.
Although I don't know what benefits would be important to you, I'd say there's surely a huge difference in looks, performance, reliability and cost between a Griff and a Tamora. Minor suspension / trim mods to the Griff are negligeable compared to these.
Reliability? Of what? A speed 6 against a Rover V8? I'm only holding off ordering a Tuscan S because I am still not convinced the engine will last out. I think the Tuscan is a great machine, the S is much better "sorted" but the engine........
Donatien...my thoughts and concerns exactly. As a member of TVRCC I get the Sprint magazine and the stories you get in "Running Report" on the Cerbera 6 and 8 cylinder engines are really scary. I am a huge fan of TVR...
However, when I hear about things like "valve guides stretching" (Cerbera in this month's Sprint) it is just plain scary and the amounts of time and money involved in sorting them out is mind bogling. I would love an early 4.2 V8 Cerbera, IMO they are quicker than the later 4.5 V8...but I just do not have the money to spare if I had a mechanical disaster.
Talking to people at the Tuscan Challenge meets, all kinds of horror stories circulate about the "Speed 6" engine.
One thing is for sure, if TVR have not already sorted their engines, they will, otherwise the future will be gloomy indeed.
I currently have a Griff 500 and had to have the top of the engine stripped at 1,000 miles from new because the lifters that had been fitted were not properly heat treated and had worn out. I have since found out that this was not an isolated case. I must emphasise that the car has been perfect ever since and cost me nothing apart from regular servicing...quite astonishing for a car with huge performance and equally large grin factor!
Finally, I have read here and in magazines about apparently complicated and costly problems occuring with the TVR/Rover V8, something that amazes me, as the engines have been built for (I am guessing) 30 years and should surely be sorted.
Stuff like refusing to start, going dramatically out of tune...why do you need to call in an expert like Mark Adams to get your car to perform as it should? Brakes and shock absorbers failing prematurely. i just do not understand.
OK some of the cars go to track events that put components under stress but only for an afternoon and surely the car was designed for it? If you were racing round in your VECTRA then cooked brakes and burning clutch are understandable...but in a high performance sports car supposedly designed for it?
Anyhow, surely the component suppliers are the same ones who manufacture parts for every other car manufacturer. I know from personal experience that when I was in my twenties and was fortunate enough to have new cars, the shock absorbers would be worn at 30 to 40K miles, replacing them shrpened-up handling etc. By the 1990's, shock absorbers became almost "fit for the life of the car". I have honestly never bought a shock absorber or clutch for 15 years and I am mega-fussy about my cars' safety and performance.
I had a new Senator 3.0L 24V and something strange but true happened and happened to many other owners I spoke to. The front suspension legs were replaced under warranty at around 20,000 miles as the handling was poor. The replacement units had apparently been modified because they lasted another 120,000 miles...but do you know what...I replaced nothing on that car except wiper blades, front brake pads and the air con heat exchanger (3X) which had a design fault.
No water pump, no battery, no transmission parts, no alternator, no wiper arms, no light bulbs for heavens sake! Back to the topic...using quality components, TVR should be able to engineer-in reliability!
The seven spoke TVR alloy wheels fitted to my Griff are not of the same quality as for instance, the OZ wheels you find in Halfords...this can only be poor quality control at TVR and is inexcusable.
I have a good mate who is Engineering Director of a key component supplier to the major motor manufacturers. Perhaps the TVR QA Manager should have a chat to someone like this. The majors expect and demand zero deffects and they will not pay a premium. Like their customers they demand quality.
People who buy TVRs are generally more interested in their cars than most. This is not because they have to be, they just are. Find a former Porche, BMW, Mercedes driver, sell him a TVR and you have a miserable customer because unfortunately TVR have a different ethos.
Going back to the TVRCC December Sprint magazine, a Cerbera owner had his car off the road for a total of something like 100 days. The car eventually ended up back at the factory. As the owner became more concerned, he tried to contact the factory and did not even receive replies to his letters.
I have visited the factory and had a wonderful time...but I would love to have the opportunity to really sort it out. A company can only be run like a "hobby" during the good economic times and times are changing for the worse. TVR produce world class cars...they must quickly learn how to produce world class quality cars.
Finally, I will be keeping the Griff and love it to bits...so there goes another customer for a new 50K TVR. Punters for 50K TVRs will become thin on the ground over the next couple of years...unfortunately I can guarantee it!
However, when I hear about things like "valve guides stretching" (Cerbera in this month's Sprint) it is just plain scary and the amounts of time and money involved in sorting them out is mind bogling. I would love an early 4.2 V8 Cerbera, IMO they are quicker than the later 4.5 V8...but I just do not have the money to spare if I had a mechanical disaster.
Talking to people at the Tuscan Challenge meets, all kinds of horror stories circulate about the "Speed 6" engine.
One thing is for sure, if TVR have not already sorted their engines, they will, otherwise the future will be gloomy indeed.
I currently have a Griff 500 and had to have the top of the engine stripped at 1,000 miles from new because the lifters that had been fitted were not properly heat treated and had worn out. I have since found out that this was not an isolated case. I must emphasise that the car has been perfect ever since and cost me nothing apart from regular servicing...quite astonishing for a car with huge performance and equally large grin factor!
Finally, I have read here and in magazines about apparently complicated and costly problems occuring with the TVR/Rover V8, something that amazes me, as the engines have been built for (I am guessing) 30 years and should surely be sorted.
Stuff like refusing to start, going dramatically out of tune...why do you need to call in an expert like Mark Adams to get your car to perform as it should? Brakes and shock absorbers failing prematurely. i just do not understand.
OK some of the cars go to track events that put components under stress but only for an afternoon and surely the car was designed for it? If you were racing round in your VECTRA then cooked brakes and burning clutch are understandable...but in a high performance sports car supposedly designed for it?
Anyhow, surely the component suppliers are the same ones who manufacture parts for every other car manufacturer. I know from personal experience that when I was in my twenties and was fortunate enough to have new cars, the shock absorbers would be worn at 30 to 40K miles, replacing them shrpened-up handling etc. By the 1990's, shock absorbers became almost "fit for the life of the car". I have honestly never bought a shock absorber or clutch for 15 years and I am mega-fussy about my cars' safety and performance.
I had a new Senator 3.0L 24V and something strange but true happened and happened to many other owners I spoke to. The front suspension legs were replaced under warranty at around 20,000 miles as the handling was poor. The replacement units had apparently been modified because they lasted another 120,000 miles...but do you know what...I replaced nothing on that car except wiper blades, front brake pads and the air con heat exchanger (3X) which had a design fault.
No water pump, no battery, no transmission parts, no alternator, no wiper arms, no light bulbs for heavens sake! Back to the topic...using quality components, TVR should be able to engineer-in reliability!
The seven spoke TVR alloy wheels fitted to my Griff are not of the same quality as for instance, the OZ wheels you find in Halfords...this can only be poor quality control at TVR and is inexcusable.
I have a good mate who is Engineering Director of a key component supplier to the major motor manufacturers. Perhaps the TVR QA Manager should have a chat to someone like this. The majors expect and demand zero deffects and they will not pay a premium. Like their customers they demand quality.
People who buy TVRs are generally more interested in their cars than most. This is not because they have to be, they just are. Find a former Porche, BMW, Mercedes driver, sell him a TVR and you have a miserable customer because unfortunately TVR have a different ethos.
Going back to the TVRCC December Sprint magazine, a Cerbera owner had his car off the road for a total of something like 100 days. The car eventually ended up back at the factory. As the owner became more concerned, he tried to contact the factory and did not even receive replies to his letters.
I have visited the factory and had a wonderful time...but I would love to have the opportunity to really sort it out. A company can only be run like a "hobby" during the good economic times and times are changing for the worse. TVR produce world class cars...they must quickly learn how to produce world class quality cars.
Finally, I will be keeping the Griff and love it to bits...so there goes another customer for a new 50K TVR. Punters for 50K TVRs will become thin on the ground over the next couple of years...unfortunately I can guarantee it!
Don't confuse everyday Euroboxes with a supercar performance of a Griff where all the components are put under more stress and need more TLC. Shocks and brakes go because the suspension is harder to give the handling and this means that the same road surface will transmit more mechnaical impact stress etc to the bushes and shocks and guess what they wear out quicker. The fashion for retrofitting 17 and 18 inch wheels on Griffs and Chimaeras etc will make this worse as the tyre compliance is reduced.
Brakes wear out quicker because of the way the car are driven: harder and faster. Some people wear these out quicker than others.
Running reports are very misleading as having a report of"Drove Griff for 6000 miles, serviced it, drove for another 6000 miles" get very very boring and so the reports are not representitive of what is actually happening out there. Just like the comments on Gassing Station. You don't hear of the car that run sweetly.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
Brakes wear out quicker because of the way the car are driven: harder and faster. Some people wear these out quicker than others.
Running reports are very misleading as having a report of"Drove Griff for 6000 miles, serviced it, drove for another 6000 miles" get very very boring and so the reports are not representitive of what is actually happening out there. Just like the comments on Gassing Station. You don't hear of the car that run sweetly.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
Toffer, a few thoughts of my own:
Tuning - Mark Adams is a guru with the Rover V8 and will tune the performance throughout the rev range for that individual engine. TVR mass-produce as do all manufactureres and set up the engine to be a 'good average'. Any car can be improved by an expert dealing with just the one engine.
Parts - TVR is a small manufacturer ans as such, does not wield the clout of the majors. It cannot demand zero defects and still expect to pay reasonable prices because it is not ordering large enough quantities. I agree that some of the problems should not happen, such as the finger followers issue.
Quality - Any car that is hand-built will not be to the same quality as a soul-less computer built box on wheels. TVR owners, of some years standing, in general understand this and make the allowances, some new owners do not realise this and expect the cars to be built to Porsche quality every time. This is impossible with hand build methods.
In summary some things could and should be improved, but others cannot.
Tuning - Mark Adams is a guru with the Rover V8 and will tune the performance throughout the rev range for that individual engine. TVR mass-produce as do all manufactureres and set up the engine to be a 'good average'. Any car can be improved by an expert dealing with just the one engine.
Parts - TVR is a small manufacturer ans as such, does not wield the clout of the majors. It cannot demand zero defects and still expect to pay reasonable prices because it is not ordering large enough quantities. I agree that some of the problems should not happen, such as the finger followers issue.
Quality - Any car that is hand-built will not be to the same quality as a soul-less computer built box on wheels. TVR owners, of some years standing, in general understand this and make the allowances, some new owners do not realise this and expect the cars to be built to Porsche quality every time. This is impossible with hand build methods.
In summary some things could and should be improved, but others cannot.
Thanks Steve!
I guess you read the Cerbera article in this month's "Sprint"...absolute nightmare!
Anyhow, just for the record, I am delighted with my Griff, had it five years from new, it runs sweet and I love it!
However, I guess my point was, I don't think I am courageous enough (or rich enough) to buy a TVR homebrew powered car like a Cerbera (I would love one), a Tuscan S (I would love one) or a Tamora (not bothered).
I guess you read the Cerbera article in this month's "Sprint"...absolute nightmare!
Anyhow, just for the record, I am delighted with my Griff, had it five years from new, it runs sweet and I love it!
However, I guess my point was, I don't think I am courageous enough (or rich enough) to buy a TVR homebrew powered car like a Cerbera (I would love one), a Tuscan S (I would love one) or a Tamora (not bothered).
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