Target kids as potential crims + expand DNA database

[streaky]

Well, BLiar is at it again. Today he proposed some worrying things:
Universal checks on children to see who is at risk of becoming an offender - Will they 'mark their card'?
Expand DNA database to include people who "come into contact" with police - Hmm. Ask a policeman for the time and he'll take a DNA swab before answering.
More summary powers for the police to hand out instant justice - An oxymoron.
Better use of more sophisticated CCTV - Is that not just MORE CCTV? And for what?
Prolific offender orders for repeat offenders - WHy can't they just lock them up? Of, course ... no room!
Special units and courts for mentally ill offenders - The Nazis had these.

some good things (if they carry them through):
More drug rehab in jails - But more likely, just more drugs!
Review of police service to reduce red tape and put more bobbies on the beat - But I won't bet on it making a noticable difference.

and some questionable things:
More support for problem families - Why?
Seizing non-cash assets from suspected criminals - Watch out, your house may be at risk if you speed!
Tougher community sentences - Tougher ON the community? Why not tougher JAIL sentences?

I forewarned some of what he is now proposing. Many of these proposals go further than the Nazis or the Stazi; if there is anyone out there who believes these are essential, let them speak and show their true colours - Streaky

[BigBob]

streaky said:

Well, BLiar is at it again. Today he proposed some worrying things:
Universal checks on children to see who is at risk of becoming an offender - Will they 'mark their card'?
Expand DNA database to include people who "come into contact" with police - Hmm. Ask a policeman for the time and he'll take a DNA swab before answering.
More summary powers for the police to hand out instant justice - An oxymoron.
Better use of more sophisticated CCTV - Is that not just MORE CCTV? And for what?
Prolific offender orders for repeat offenders - WHy can't they just lock them up? Of, course ... no room!
Special units and courts for mentally ill offenders - The Nazis had these.

some good things (if they carry them through):
More drug rehab in jails - But more likely, just more drugs!
Review of police service to reduce red tape and put more bobbies on the beat - But I won't bet on it making a noticable difference.

and some questionable things:
More support for problem families - Why?
Seizing non-cash assets from suspected criminals - Watch out, your house may be at risk if you speed!
Tougher community sentences - Tougher ON the community? Why not tougher JAIL sentences?

I forewarned some of what he is now proposing. Many of these proposals go further than the Nazis or the Stazi; if there is anyone out there who believes these are essential, let them speak and show their true colours - Streaky

And I was only joking when I posted this on another thread this morning .....






................... Your system doesn't involve spending billions on dodgy IT led schemes that can detect, evaluate and store what colour underpants we were wearing a week last Saturday, so it has no chance of becoming government policy.

What you need to do is come up with a scheme - oh I don't know. something like:

Every person will be fitted with a radio transponder not later than 7 days after their birth. This transponder will interact with a central database that contains information every known bodily function, every trip and journey, all your education, tax and medical records records and anything else they can think of.

Cars will then have to fitted with a transponder so they won't start if the driver doesn't have a licence or insurance flagged on their records in this wonderful all seeing all dancing d/base. Only 17 - no problem, the 'brain' in the car will limit the power the engine can produce for you to 20bhp but dear old grannie down the road - who's never had an accident, seen thousands but never had one, is allowed the full 500bhp of her M5.

Get a ban - no problem. The techie in the Court will just grab your arm, or wherever the chip is planted, and reset it there and then for you - hey why restrict it to a techie in Court, let's give all BiB a handheld 'resetting tool'. Any doubts then and they can 'immobilize' you on the spot until you get to Court an prove your innocence.

Even better - get flashed by a Cam. Sensor 100 yards up the road will automatically reprogram you chip with 3/6 points and your bank account will automatically be deducted £60. Don't get caught too often though - you could end up stuck on the side of the road.

I'm sure there's lots more innovative ideas that could be included - but you get the idea.

Now, come up with a scheme like that and the government would be beating a path to your door





Think I'd better go and delete it quick before somebody in power reads it. On second thoughts though - if somebody in power does read it and implements it I can sue for MILLIONS and get out this country for good whilst I'm still allowed to



BB

[WildCat]

Stasis und those who deride because reported by Telegraph/Waily etc...

they are the ones who let in a surveillance und Stasi dictatorship by acquiescent stealth. They bury heads in sand. They think they are "educated" but "edukayshun" in Bliar's Britain ist not worth the paper it is written on..

Humans are imperfect und each human has "defective genes" which may predispose to illness of some sort .. but we all have these und ist nothing to fear really as our other genes may override the lacking one No one can predict for sure in any case

Of the genes which predispose us to Eve's "original sin of eating the apple und being curious about life as a result - und Cain's gene which predisposes us all to kill someone" - we all inherit these too.. even Drony Tony who has the genetic predisposition to give the evasive answer which ist not quite truthful but which has perhaps one true element but not necessarily the just one. but his genetic tendency predisposes him to make the most benefit of this und his manipulation of the facts could land him in a court room facing charges maybe

So .. we all have these genes... und I think when Bliar meet Bush .. or Hitler meet Goebbels und Hesse - we have the collective genetic chance which spell disaster for most.

I think I really say

BIRDS OF A FEATHER FLOCK TOGETHER und no social engineering or database snooping will change this

[Wilder]

Well not wishing to unsettle anyone -but do you really think that in this age of big brother, that all you dissenters details havnt been collated from sites like this? . You have been warned......

[lostusernamedamn]

... and Bliar wants to be able to confiscate assets before conviction. ...that's assets the government will claim they feel are the proceeds of crime - before conviction remember! Now WTF is that if it's not a move to a police state?

[chrispy porker]

I would support the moves for mentally ill offenders, they do not belong in prison.

[nobleguy]

Blair's suspected of being involved in the Cash for Honours, as are some of his closest bum buddies - freeze their assets until it's cleared up.

[BigBob]

Seeing as Tony's father-in-law was done for fiddling state benefits there is obviously a genetic predisposition passed down to Mrs B (who seems to like used convicted con-artists to negotiate property deals for her)and if she's got it then all the Babies Blair must have it as well.

In fact they must be more likely to have it as they get it from both sides of the family (Psssst - wanna buy a knighthood cheap gov........)

Definately should be watching that family ..................













BB

[streaky]

chrispy porker said:

I would support the moves for mentally ill offenders, they do not belong in prison.

Says nothing about not putting them in prison, just trying them in special courts. Possibly like Family Court proceedings ... not reportable and subject to gross injustices - Streaky

[chrispy porker]

streaky said:

chrispy porker said:

I would support the moves for mentally ill offenders, they do not belong in prison.

Says nothing about not putting them in prison, just trying them in special courts. Possibly like Family Court proceedings ... not reportable and subject to gross injustices - Streaky

I assumed that was what was meant by 'special units'.

by the way every time you mention 'Nazis' you weaken your argument.

The Nazis gassed mentally ill people. Are you saying this is the idea?

[WildCat]

chrispy porker said:

streaky said:

chrispy porker said:

I would support the moves for mentally ill offenders, they do not belong in prison.

Says nothing about not putting them in prison, just trying them in special courts. Possibly like Family Court proceedings ... not reportable and subject to gross injustices - Streaky

I assumed that was what was meant by 'special units'.

by the way every time you mention 'Nazis' you weaken your argument.

The Nazis gassed mentally ill people. Are you saying this is the idea?

Actually anyone who failed to match the Aryan ideal or dissented in any way was targeted by that regime for "treatment" which meant certain death in those camps.

In GDR.. people just "disappeared" und try to escape .. you "disappeared" ..


But keeping tabs on people und snooping on their everhy movement ist wrong und that ist what our grandparents/parents went to fight a war against Hitler for....the freedom of their country und their chidren und children's children's children.

The current nightmare politics being pursued in this country has very sinister parallels to that regime in tone und threat to its public. East Germany und the rest of Soviet satellite states eventually rebelled.. only to find Western culture now regressing that way

We need to wake up und regain our civilised freedom.. which co-exist with polite social behaviour.. und not by pandering to pee cee nonsense at the expense of our freedom.

But I will recommend all watch a German film.. which won Oscar for "Best Foreign Language Film" (which in itself ist patronising as it not a "foreign language to me .. but my L1 lingo ) but no matter.

This film "Das Leben der Anderen" (Life of Other People) ist about the dilemma faced by a Stasi Officer who eavesdrop on a suspect dissident playwright und his girlfriend (who happened to be an Informer anyway per the files on view in Leipzig - ist based on a true story but has "film maker licence in parts ) He got involved in their lives .. as folk do with the soap operas if you like.. und enjoyed tuning into their lives to the extent that he fudged the reports just to keep his "eavesdropping fix" But within the story .. there ist the clear nsight into the extent und dangers of state snooping on its citizens.

Film released in this country with subtitles next month.

[justinp1]

WildCat said:

chrispy porker said:

streaky said:

chrispy porker said:

I would support the moves for mentally ill offenders, they do not belong in prison.

Says nothing about not putting them in prison, just trying them in special courts. Possibly like Family Court proceedings ... not reportable and subject to gross injustices - Streaky

I assumed that was what was meant by 'special units'.

by the way every time you mention 'Nazis' you weaken your argument.

The Nazis gassed mentally ill people. Are you saying this is the idea?

Actually anyone who failed to match the Aryan ideal or dissented in any way was targeted by that regime for "treatment" which meant certain death in those camps.

In GDR.. people just "disappeared" und try to escape .. you "disappeared" ..


But keeping tabs on people und snooping on their everhy movement ist wrong und that ist what our grandparents/parents went to fight a war against Hitler for....the freedom of their country und their chidren und children's children's children.

The current nightmare politics being pursued in this country has very sinister parallels to that regime in tone und threat to its public. East Germany und the rest of Soviet satellite states eventually rebelled.. only to find Western culture now regressing that way

We need to wake up und regain our civilised freedom.. which co-exist with polite social behaviour.. und not by pandering to pee cee nonsense at the expense of our freedom.

But I will recommend all watch a German film.. which won Oscar for "Best Foreign Language Film" (which in itself ist patronising as it not a "foreign language to me .. but my L1 lingo ) but no matter.

This film "Das Leben der Anderen" (Life of Other People) ist about the dilemma faced by a Stasi Officer who eavesdrop on a suspect dissident playwright und his girlfriend (who happened to be an Informer anyway per the files on view in Leipzig - ist based on a true story but has "film maker licence in parts ) He got involved in their lives .. as folk do with the soap operas if you like.. und enjoyed tuning into their lives to the extent that he fudged the reports just to keep his "eavesdropping fix" But within the story .. there ist the clear nsight into the extent und dangers of state snooping on its citizens.

Film released in this country with subtitles next month.

I have to agree with this.

I have pointed out that the opinions on the benefits and use of propoganda by the Nazi ministers have very apt parrallels in todays UK politic.

There is a very fine line or 'grey area' between perceived freedom and a non-free Nazi/Stalinesque society. What worries me is the subtlety of the circle of policy change to propaganda to public opinion fuelling policy change again - a neverending circle with actually occurred in Nazi Germany.

If anyone saw the 'documentary' by Charles Clark on the benefits of DNA testing, how he was happy to have his DNA on record and the serious criminals caught only because their DNA was on record from a minor infringement then you will see what I mean. I was not disgusted with the content of the opinion, as it was a valid one, but is does smatter of state-sponsored propaganda when it is our governmental figures writing and presenting the documentary!

[streaky]

Just on the expansion of the DNA database, did anyone else notice the news item concerning the five civil servants suspended after being accused of copying data from the DNA database and using it to set up a rival company to the FSS?

Also, the FSS was turned into a Government-owned company in 2005 as a prelude to privatisation. A report by the Science and Technology Committee of the House of Commons revealed that the FSS had been approached by a number of companies seeking access to the data.

In 1998, the Icelandic government sold the DNA data they held on all Icelandic citizens.

Watch this space!

Streaky

[Julian64]

Well I for one agreed with tony blair on this one and rarely find myself agreeing with him. Its singly the best piece of legislation if done in the right way that we have ever had as a country.

[Einion Yrth]

Julian64 said:

Well I for one agreed with tony blair on this one and rarely find myself agreeing with him. Its singly the best piece of legislation if done in the right way that we have ever had as a country.

Not only do I find your basic premise flawed, but the piece I have emboldened really does add icing to the cake.

[jasandjules]

Julian64 said:

Well I for one agreed with tony blair on this one and rarely find myself agreeing with him. Its singly the best piece of legislation if done in the right way that we have ever had as a country.

And exactly how will you prevent mis-use of this information?

Look at the DWP, sending out thousands of bank details to the wrong people.

[Julian64]

Einion Yrth said:

Julian64 said:

Well I for one agreed with tony blair on this one and rarely find myself agreeing with him. Its singly the best piece of legislation if done in the right way that we have ever had as a country.

Not only do I find your basic premise flawed, but the piece I have emboldened really does add icing to the cake.

Well there was a lot of stuff in the original post.

Among my favs were universal checks on children, because I see a growing number of families who should have their parenting overseen if there is concern. Youth offenders aren't born with an inherited badness gene, they are created. I bet most people could spot the children in school most likely to become offenders. You might change the life of a child with a bit of counselling intervention, and a heavy handed approach with the parents, but you probably couldn't change a teenager, and you almost certainly won't change a convicted criminal. So why not go for them young. Hell why don't you go one step further and say every child in this country should have citizenship classes?

Number two was DNA database. I hate the idea of this, but where are we going as a society currently. The police have just about admitted giving up with almost every crime except the easiest to catch. No point telling the police your car has been stolen, or you were assaulted/mugged because very little happens. They are overstretched, and under resourced. The only options are making criminals easier to catch at the payment of having my DNA floating about on what is hopefully a secure database. The precident is already there with the NHS spine, with a lot of your personal medical data going to be there soon if not already. So I would probably allow this if it could be linked to a high sucess rate for the police.

Drug rehab in jail. A very long overdue attempt to break an indemic drug culture in our jails. Whats not to like.

Taking criminal assetts. Yep we could get old grannies chucked out of the street to pay a parking fine, but I think you'll find that this legislation is aimed at the big baddies, and we're unlikely to see many grannies on the streets. Hopefully some wide boys who profess dole poverty status when they get fined for running their novas around uninsured and out of tax will get their state of the art mobile phones and mp3 players nicked to pay the fine.

All in all it sounds like they're proposing a few unpalatable things but in the right direction. Either that or we could just keep going the way we are. I don't think 1984 is wrong, its just a few steps too far, in the same way but the other direction that describes us now.

[fluffnik]

Julian64 said:

They are overstretched, and under resourced.

Perhaps due to the proliferation of ill considered laws;

Why do we continue to waste effort on prohibition, a policy with a 100% failure rate?

If we treated all recreational drugs as we treat alcohol and tobacco they'd generate revenue rather than consuming limitless resourses.

Why do we try to outlaw ways of thinking while promoting ignorance by funding faith schools?

Why do we prop up the USA's imperial ambitions and support their extortionist's view of Intelectual Property at considerable expense to ourselves?

[...]

Julian64 said:

I don't think 1984 is wrong, its just a few steps too far

Wrong direction, just like our government, and not that much further.

[tigger1]

Like any talk of "Government owned companies" my main fear is always that at some point, they'll sell it all off, including all data, all debts, all rights - possibly with relaxations on teh rules.

Student Loans Company anyone?

[streaky]

tigger1 said:

Like any talk of "Government owned companies" my main fear is always that at some point, they'll sell it all off, including all data, all debts, all rights - possibly with relaxations on teh rules.

streaky said:

Also, the FSS was turned into a Government-owned company in 2005 as a prelude to privatisation.

'nuff sed? - Streaky