Boost tapping thingies...
Discussion
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Quick-Tap-fitting-f...
Like those, but not that expensive, or from the US of A...
Does anyone know a proper/different name for them? I've been looking for ages and I can't seem to find them on any UK sites
Anywhere selling some nice cheap boost tapping things would be handy, can't justify ordering two from the USA at that price...
As much as I don't like eBay, they are convenient, just got myself a new boost gauge as my dad squashed my other in his tractor door after fitting a big old turbo lorry engine to an old tractor
Dave
Like those, but not that expensive, or from the US of A...
Does anyone know a proper/different name for them? I've been looking for ages and I can't seem to find them on any UK sites
Anywhere selling some nice cheap boost tapping things would be handy, can't justify ordering two from the USA at that price...
As much as I don't like eBay, they are convenient, just got myself a new boost gauge as my dad squashed my other in his tractor door after fitting a big old turbo lorry engine to an old tractor
Dave
Surely you already have a manifold pressure tap somewhere? If you definitely need a new one and plan to tap into a hose to provide it, you might find that Aquamist have something suitable. They've got a variety of fittings designed to tap into soft tanks and hoses. Arguably a better approach would be to tap a hole into a pipe/casting and use a screw-in spigot instead, but that would take a bit more work.
No, no anything for taking boost unfortunately... the system was totally closed bar the wastegate tap off the turbo compressor housing.
I'm tapping into the silicone because the parts are cheap to replace, or easy to swap, so I can check boost at varying locations.
I could have tapped the L bend section that comes off the intake manifold, but it's £50, and if I get it wrong it's a bugger to change... the silicone section is £6, and can be swapped in 5 mins, not about 1hr
Is there any significant disadvantage to having them into the silicone?
Longer term I'm probably not going to run boost sensors anyway, just for setting up the whole system and checking it's efficiency.
Longer term, if I feel a dedicated boost sensor is needed, I'll probably tap the cast manifold L bend section (feed into the main manifold), and then get a nice subtle boost gauge somewhere, maybe in the glove box
Thanks
Dave
I'm tapping into the silicone because the parts are cheap to replace, or easy to swap, so I can check boost at varying locations.
I could have tapped the L bend section that comes off the intake manifold, but it's £50, and if I get it wrong it's a bugger to change... the silicone section is £6, and can be swapped in 5 mins, not about 1hr
Is there any significant disadvantage to having them into the silicone?
Longer term I'm probably not going to run boost sensors anyway, just for setting up the whole system and checking it's efficiency.
Longer term, if I feel a dedicated boost sensor is needed, I'll probably tap the cast manifold L bend section (feed into the main manifold), and then get a nice subtle boost gauge somewhere, maybe in the glove box
Thanks
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
No, no anything for taking boost unfortunately... the system was totally closed bar the wastegate tap off the turbo compressor housing.
I'm tapping into the silicone because the parts are cheap to replace, or easy to swap, so I can check boost at varying locations.
I could have tapped the L bend section that comes off the intake manifold, but it's £50, and if I get it wrong it's a bugger to change... the silicone section is £6, and can be swapped in 5 mins, not about 1hr
Is there any significant disadvantage to having them into the silicone?
Longer term I'm probably not going to run boost sensors anyway, just for setting up the whole system and checking it's efficiency.
Longer term, if I feel a dedicated boost sensor is needed, I'll probably tap the cast manifold L bend section (feed into the main manifold), and then get a nice subtle boost gauge somewhere, maybe in the glove box
Thanks
Dave
And whats wrong with T'ing from the wastegate feed?I'm tapping into the silicone because the parts are cheap to replace, or easy to swap, so I can check boost at varying locations.
I could have tapped the L bend section that comes off the intake manifold, but it's £50, and if I get it wrong it's a bugger to change... the silicone section is £6, and can be swapped in 5 mins, not about 1hr
Is there any significant disadvantage to having them into the silicone?
Longer term I'm probably not going to run boost sensors anyway, just for setting up the whole system and checking it's efficiency.
Longer term, if I feel a dedicated boost sensor is needed, I'll probably tap the cast manifold L bend section (feed into the main manifold), and then get a nice subtle boost gauge somewhere, maybe in the glove box
Thanks
Dave
The wastegate feed is not in a convenient place to access easily, and the actuator connection is fairly delicate, so I'd be risking damaging it if I didn't have good access (rocking the engine forward alot)
Also, I'd introduce some wastegate lag doing that, and when it's adjusted for more boost already I'd prefer it to not spike excessively, so keeping it fast acting and smooth on the boost curve for now, at least until I do some testing, would be ideal.
Anyway, just ordered some of those 5mm take-offs from Demon Thieves (see why they are called thieves now
)
They are also quite handy as I can thread my k thermocouple wires down the take-off too, while just exposing a tiny portion of the tip near the main air-flow
Dave
Also, I'd introduce some wastegate lag doing that, and when it's adjusted for more boost already I'd prefer it to not spike excessively, so keeping it fast acting and smooth on the boost curve for now, at least until I do some testing, would be ideal.
Anyway, just ordered some of those 5mm take-offs from Demon Thieves (see why they are called thieves now
)They are also quite handy as I can thread my k thermocouple wires down the take-off too, while just exposing a tiny portion of the tip near the main air-flow
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
Also, I'd introduce some wastegate lag doing that, and when it's adjusted for more boost already I'd prefer it to not spike excessively, so keeping it fast acting and smooth on the boost curve for now, at least until I do some testing, would be ideal.
Dave
Urr - dont think so.Dave
I give up.
eliot said:
Mr Whippy said:
Also, I'd introduce some wastegate lag doing that, and when it's adjusted for more boost already I'd prefer it to not spike excessively, so keeping it fast acting and smooth on the boost curve for now, at least until I do some testing, would be ideal.
Dave
Urr - dont think so.Dave
I give up.
Surely if I have a 10 yard long line looping round the engine bay before feeding back into the actuator housing, it'll lag the wastegate?
What is the logic behind measuring boost from the actuator feed line when it is 100x more inconvenient than from a simple silicone take-off, which can be done easily pre/post intercooler to measure pressure drop, along with temp measurements at these points too?
I do recognise the benefit of measuring boost at the compressor outlet as the boost the turbo is really generating as a reference point, but my first tapping point will be after just 60cm of pipe, 30cm before the intercooler, which is an OEM Peugeot plastic one direct from the compressor outlet to the front of the car, and is very smooth and flowing...
Hmmmm
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
I'm happy to be told otherwise, I just haven't read that anywhere.
Surely if I have a 10 yard long line looping round the engine bay before feeding back into the actuator housing, it'll lag the wastegate?
At the end of the day it's your car and your decision what to do with it, but the reasons you're putting forward for taking that approach rather than the more conventional ones suggested do seem a little arbitrary. Lag on vacuum lines is not an issue unless you are deliberately restricting them, if anything the extra length may help to smooth out a pulsing signal. What this has to do with waste gate creep I have no idea.Surely if I have a 10 yard long line looping round the engine bay before feeding back into the actuator housing, it'll lag the wastegate?
I'm all up for better ideas to be used, but I am yet to be 'sold' on the idea that a tapping into the wastegate actuator feed is a quick simple and most of all fruitful operation.
What benefit does it have wrt taking a boost signal?
The OEM HDi110 manufactured by Peugeot uses it's boost sensor post intercooler, just 30cm before the intake manifold, and in that implementation uses the sensor there to control the boost control solenoid controlling the compressor outlet boost seen by the actuator for the wastegate.
Why is it sensing all the way past the intercooler if it's not as good a signal for reference for controlling boost?
Again, if it were simple, I'd do it without hesitation, but access is tough. My friend damaged his actuator trying to tap into it (the nozzle snapped off as it was plastic), and so he had to rock the engine forward, remove his intake manifold, turbo manifold and turbo, and replace the wastegate mechanism, then re-fit... even in ideal circumstances it'd take about 3hrs to fit it there, with the risks noted.
Tapping the top L bend would take several hours too.
Or, I can take a line from just before the L bend in 5 mins (why is this technically bad?) and one from before the intercooler so I can measure there too (the smooth pipe pre intercooler is likely to see marginal pressure drop)
Thirdly, the two sections I will tap for boost are evident on my brothers intercooled car, in the same locations, so we can swap them for monitoring his intercooler systems efficiency etc...
And lastly, I don't really want a permanent boost gauge, nor extra failure points that are impossible to access at the roadside, for the wastegate, by t-ing into my wastegate actuator feed.
I appreciate that I have my reasons and others don't get them without seeing my setup, but I'm not sure why people are being hostile about it...
A big fat volume on the wastegate actuator line, as far as I knew, would introduce wastegate lag, and I think with the wastegate arm already adjusted almost as fully closed as it will go, I was concerned that I may see momentary spikes of over-boost if the wastegate actuator line was lagged by extra volume.
Surely that trend exists, or can I really put a 5 yard length of pipe on it and see the same wastegate action vs boost?
Even if wastegate action lag isn't introduced, the ease of fitting is hugely difficult (literally, it's as good as impossible to even access without moving the engine off a mount)
Ultimately, is there anything bad with silicone take-offs?
For me the positives hugely outweigh what appear to be no real negatives, but if there are some I'd love to know so I can then make a more considered decision on what to do
Dave
What benefit does it have wrt taking a boost signal?
The OEM HDi110 manufactured by Peugeot uses it's boost sensor post intercooler, just 30cm before the intake manifold, and in that implementation uses the sensor there to control the boost control solenoid controlling the compressor outlet boost seen by the actuator for the wastegate.
Why is it sensing all the way past the intercooler if it's not as good a signal for reference for controlling boost?
Again, if it were simple, I'd do it without hesitation, but access is tough. My friend damaged his actuator trying to tap into it (the nozzle snapped off as it was plastic), and so he had to rock the engine forward, remove his intake manifold, turbo manifold and turbo, and replace the wastegate mechanism, then re-fit... even in ideal circumstances it'd take about 3hrs to fit it there, with the risks noted.
Tapping the top L bend would take several hours too.
Or, I can take a line from just before the L bend in 5 mins (why is this technically bad?) and one from before the intercooler so I can measure there too (the smooth pipe pre intercooler is likely to see marginal pressure drop)
Thirdly, the two sections I will tap for boost are evident on my brothers intercooled car, in the same locations, so we can swap them for monitoring his intercooler systems efficiency etc...
And lastly, I don't really want a permanent boost gauge, nor extra failure points that are impossible to access at the roadside, for the wastegate, by t-ing into my wastegate actuator feed.
I appreciate that I have my reasons and others don't get them without seeing my setup, but I'm not sure why people are being hostile about it...
A big fat volume on the wastegate actuator line, as far as I knew, would introduce wastegate lag, and I think with the wastegate arm already adjusted almost as fully closed as it will go, I was concerned that I may see momentary spikes of over-boost if the wastegate actuator line was lagged by extra volume.
Surely that trend exists, or can I really put a 5 yard length of pipe on it and see the same wastegate action vs boost?
Even if wastegate action lag isn't introduced, the ease of fitting is hugely difficult (literally, it's as good as impossible to even access without moving the engine off a mount)
Ultimately, is there anything bad with silicone take-offs?
For me the positives hugely outweigh what appear to be no real negatives, but if there are some I'd love to know so I can then make a more considered decision on what to do
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Tuesday 23 September 09:33
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