Brain picking time
Discussion
I am thinking of doing a Computeach course at a cost of £4,500 - this would give me the following Quals
MCP, MCSA, MCSE, CCNA, and CCNP.
If I go through that learning curve could someone tell me what the chances of getting a job are and how much would I be earning. Its 1250 hours of learning and about 25 days at their purpose built college - anyone used computeach - they seem pretty good to me.
MCP, MCSA, MCSE, CCNA, and CCNP.
If I go through that learning curve could someone tell me what the chances of getting a job are and how much would I be earning. Its 1250 hours of learning and about 25 days at their purpose built college - anyone used computeach - they seem pretty good to me.
I'm only 20, and am doing a degree at Uni so I might be completely wrong, but, I'm painfully aware that at the moment there are a complete shortage of jobs in the IT sector.
Essentially, I am looking for an avenue of work that I'm interested in outside of the main IT drive - the work doesn't exist
Essentially, I am looking for an avenue of work that I'm interested in outside of the main IT drive - the work doesn't exist
Things really aren't in a good way at the moment, and if it is your own personal money rather than company training, I would hold off. Friend of mine wanted to get into the IT game a couple of years ago, did his MCSE and got absolutely nowhere finding a job. Problem is there is a lot of good and most importantly experienced people out there applying for the few jobs there are going around.
Our helpdesk is made up entirely of contractors, and I know we are roughly paying them circa £15 / hour now (this is one of the worlds largest insurers, and the UK office is in the City, so not an 'out of town' job). 5 years ago they would have been getting £25 - 30 hour. Plus now we have our pick of the cream. The jobs / money just aren't there at this particular moment in time.
Our helpdesk is made up entirely of contractors, and I know we are roughly paying them circa £15 / hour now (this is one of the worlds largest insurers, and the UK office is in the City, so not an 'out of town' job). 5 years ago they would have been getting £25 - 30 hour. Plus now we have our pick of the cream. The jobs / money just aren't there at this particular moment in time.
We've got lot's of Indian IT specialists working for us at the moment as it works out cheaper to accommodate them at our cost and pay them double what they would get at home, than to employ 'local' resource.
They are every bit as good as well - although in one or two cases (out of 30) their English could be better.
They are every bit as good as well - although in one or two cases (out of 30) their English could be better.
Computeach @ 4 and a half large ??? oh in the name of God no...read the above post about Indian IT workers and that should set off a few alarm bells...this seems to be in thing now...outsourcing *and* bringing them over but that's O/T
If you're keen maybe best to start out with an MCP to see how you get on, there are loads of books/CDs that take you thru the course and tons of resources on the net. Like a lot of careers experience counts for more than quals.....usual catch 22 etc etc.
Just my 2p
If you're keen maybe best to start out with an MCP to see how you get on, there are loads of books/CDs that take you thru the course and tons of resources on the net. Like a lot of careers experience counts for more than quals.....usual catch 22 etc etc.
Just my 2p
:rantmodeon:
Beware - The EU is gonna change the laws allowing people from poorer nations in to do the jobs! This is especially true in IT because big business is saying it can't get the qualified staff it needs.
This is only partly true, business can't get the staff at the shitty wages - cos afterall we're all trained, qualified and have mortgages to pay. So they are going the governments saying there is a skills shortage and to bring in foreigners.
Mr Choudray from Culcutta is a lot cheaper, and only has a paper MCSE and no experience, but he's still better than us cos he's cheaper and the fat cats can retire with big payoffs
:rantmodeoff:
Beware - The EU is gonna change the laws allowing people from poorer nations in to do the jobs! This is especially true in IT because big business is saying it can't get the qualified staff it needs.
This is only partly true, business can't get the staff at the shitty wages - cos afterall we're all trained, qualified and have mortgages to pay. So they are going the governments saying there is a skills shortage and to bring in foreigners.
Mr Choudray from Culcutta is a lot cheaper, and only has a paper MCSE and no experience, but he's still better than us cos he's cheaper and the fat cats can retire with big payoffs
:rantmodeoff:
Whilst qualifications do prove that you know something I've not met many people in recent years (certaintly since the demise of NT4) that pay any heed in the slightest to Microsoft Certification.
The Cisco ones are better regarded but I think its only the CCIE that goes down really well, but its also the hardest I believe.
The Cisco ones are better regarded but I think its only the CCIE that goes down really well, but its also the hardest I believe.
My experience (and I am actively job hunting) is you need the experience on the job AND an MCSE now. I have 4x MCPs and am certain I've missed out on interviews due to this.
So currently I'm finishing off my MCSE and then I'll also have 3 year's technical support in one of the top 5 software companies dealing with servers - I still can't find a flaming job!
So currently I'm finishing off my MCSE and then I'll also have 3 year's technical support in one of the top 5 software companies dealing with servers - I still can't find a flaming job!
Dont 4 MCP's = an MCSE or is it more?
I am not sure if an MCSE is a true requirement really though is it? If I had the choice between two people, one who could knock up a server out of bits under pressure, could deal with users well and knew how to connect disparate technology A to disparate technology B and one who had an MCSE I know who I would choose.
And it wouldnt be the person who could operate all the switches through a cuddly GUI either...
I am not sure if an MCSE is a true requirement really though is it? If I had the choice between two people, one who could knock up a server out of bits under pressure, could deal with users well and knew how to connect disparate technology A to disparate technology B and one who had an MCSE I know who I would choose.
And it wouldnt be the person who could operate all the switches through a cuddly GUI either...
It's 7 MCPs = 1 MCSE now 
In this day and age there are still many many bullshitters in IT and I guess the MCSE certification is just another way of weeding out the rubbish. Of course there are many dodgey ways to get hold of them (I have certainly met a few) and people can arrive in IT with just an MCSE and no experience.
How are you going to test who can build a server under pressure and who cannot - not many interviewers will
In this day and age there are still many many bullshitters in IT and I guess the MCSE certification is just another way of weeding out the rubbish. Of course there are many dodgey ways to get hold of them (I have certainly met a few) and people can arrive in IT with just an MCSE and no experience.
How are you going to test who can build a server under pressure and who cannot - not many interviewers will
Getting an MCSE is really not very hard at all for someone with no job experience - just pay for a set of trancenders, learn them by rote and you wont have a problem. The NT4 one was probably more highly regarded because at the time it was really only IT professionals taking the exams, and not people wanting to jump on the IT bandwagon (whose wheels have since fallen off). When I did my NT4 MCSE (Back in the day!!) I was honestly shocked at how easy it was.
With regards choosing experience over paper qualification, I think 99& of employers would take the experience. We had a paper MCSE join us at my old firm a few years back, and I kid you not, on his first day he did not know how to map a network drive and had to ask someone. Why? because its not taught as part of the MCSE course. Now he did stay on with us, and in fact went on to become a very competent IT person (now looks after after a Citrix environment spanning the European branches of a well known high street retailer). Its just being given a chance that is the problem, and even more so in todays environment.
With regards choosing experience over paper qualification, I think 99& of employers would take the experience. We had a paper MCSE join us at my old firm a few years back, and I kid you not, on his first day he did not know how to map a network drive and had to ask someone. Why? because its not taught as part of the MCSE course. Now he did stay on with us, and in fact went on to become a very competent IT person (now looks after after a Citrix environment spanning the European branches of a well known high street retailer). Its just being given a chance that is the problem, and even more so in todays environment.
Ren - I did something similar.
I jacked in my job running a large carfleet and spent around £1600 on a 5 week course. The course involved learning Office, winNT and win2000 to an advanced level along with IT troubleshooting skills. They also promised to work for 8 weeks to find me a job, this worked on my behalf because the other 50% of the course fees would be found by my eventual employer.
I have been extremely lucky and landed with a top5 software firm in Reading (although I now hate my job). I wasn't earning for 3months.
However - my warning to you is this all happened before the IT downturn. Since then thousands of jobs in IT have disappeared and thousands are moving or have moved to India. Wages are down and I think staying down.
In a nutshell, yes it works - but if it doesn't, that's a lot of money!!
Good luck
I jacked in my job running a large carfleet and spent around £1600 on a 5 week course. The course involved learning Office, winNT and win2000 to an advanced level along with IT troubleshooting skills. They also promised to work for 8 weeks to find me a job, this worked on my behalf because the other 50% of the course fees would be found by my eventual employer.
I have been extremely lucky and landed with a top5 software firm in Reading (although I now hate my job). I wasn't earning for 3months.
However - my warning to you is this all happened before the IT downturn. Since then thousands of jobs in IT have disappeared and thousands are moving or have moved to India. Wages are down and I think staying down.
In a nutshell, yes it works - but if it doesn't, that's a lot of money!!
Good luck
Ren Dao said:
Come on guys I need some positives here - have just left current job after hearing that the MCSE & CISCO route was really good - anything positive please
Ok Ren, although its all too easy for everyone else to just quote the doom and gloom from IT Weekly, not every company is going to be outsourcing to Asia, there are still a hell of a lot of companies who will prefer onsite staff...and for sure getting an MCSE will certainly help you, plus you get to become and MCP along the way..so if you are looking then the best option is to go for the newest too if you can and do it in 2003...
good luck mate whatever you do!
so if you are looking then the best option is to go for the newest too if you can and do it in 2003...
good luck mate whatever you do
Don't think that option is available yet .. but I did ask.. Thanks for your post though It does seem a little OTT on negatives here -- other information sources suggest its a good move and that the IT gloom and doom is begining to turn the corner..
any comments appreciated ...
Perhaps take a look at the experience of many people who post regularly on PH before making a judgement?
Its not all doom and gloom but the picture painted by the training providers and the reality are leagues apart.
You asked for advice on whether its worth doing, most people have said its not, we're not going to lie to you because you want to do it, we are just stating the usefulness of it in the marketplace given our experience.
Best of luck whatever you choose
Its not all doom and gloom but the picture painted by the training providers and the reality are leagues apart.
You asked for advice on whether its worth doing, most people have said its not, we're not going to lie to you because you want to do it, we are just stating the usefulness of it in the marketplace given our experience.
Best of luck whatever you choose
Yep, there are more jobs out there for sure then there have been. But as has been pointed out, there are some extremely well qualified people going for them.
Sorry, but don't expect more than £20k for your first role, and that will be good money. Be prepared to start low and show employers what you can do
There are some very good, but badly paid, jobs out there.
Definately take the win2000 MCSE, it's the current OS of choice (a good few companies still use NT). Then its a simple upgrade course to win2003 with just 2 or 3 exams if you get it done in time (should be plenty of time left)
Sorry, but don't expect more than £20k for your first role, and that will be good money. Be prepared to start low and show employers what you can do
There are some very good, but badly paid, jobs out there. Definately take the win2000 MCSE, it's the current OS of choice (a good few companies still use NT
). Then its a simple upgrade course to win2003 with just 2 or 3 exams if you get it done in time (should be plenty of time left)Its true, Ive been in the IT industry for the last 10 years .. not as long as some, but longer than a fair few.
I am Solaris admin, CCNA,Network management certified plus a few others.. in my experience reciently lots of companies lack the following:
SQL, Pearl .. the ability to script.
UNIX and advanced NT admin
I am looking through 2 job specs £35k ish that have those as pre-requisits.
I am Solaris admin, CCNA,Network management certified plus a few others.. in my experience reciently lots of companies lack the following:
SQL, Pearl .. the ability to script.
UNIX and advanced NT admin
I am looking through 2 job specs £35k ish that have those as pre-requisits.
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