Timewasters when selling Porsches
Discussion
How is it that when it comes time to sell a Porsche you get the most unbelievable timewasters...they always want to pay 70% of the real worth! I am always forced to sell on a sale or return basis where some trader adds £4k to the price with. They always seem to be able to sell cars at a ridculous price! Porsche Dealers appear to have £8k to £10k margins whilst specialists are at £3 to £4k. 2 specialist dealers have offered me a sale or return on my car and have openly admitted they would expect a £3k margin. I must be in the wrong business!
I guess the real issue for private buyers is warranty and finance but each of these dealers would charge an additional price for warranty AND gain commission on any finance.
I guess the real issue for private buyers is warranty and finance but each of these dealers would charge an additional price for warranty AND gain commission on any finance.
The truth is out ! Porsche are not the most profitable car company in the world for nothing. There are decent margins throughout the value chain.
official Porsche centres have to pay for their steel and glass cathedrals ( they are'nt free you know) , while the independents seem to be doing pretty well.
After all, Paragon race a GT1 car and Mr Firman of 911virgin.com will be racing a GT3 next season. The margins in Porsches are attractive for those in the trade.
But they come as a shock to those people who expect to see minimal depreciation.
This is a myth - as you have discovered!
Just enjoy the car and accept that the residuals for modern Porsche cars are pretty much equal to other brands, not better.
Still, at least its not a TVR or a Noble
:awaitflaming:
official Porsche centres have to pay for their steel and glass cathedrals ( they are'nt free you know) , while the independents seem to be doing pretty well.
After all, Paragon race a GT1 car and Mr Firman of 911virgin.com will be racing a GT3 next season. The margins in Porsches are attractive for those in the trade.
But they come as a shock to those people who expect to see minimal depreciation.
This is a myth - as you have discovered!
Just enjoy the car and accept that the residuals for modern Porsche cars are pretty much equal to other brands, not better.
Still, at least its not a TVR or a Noble
:awaitflaming:
A Trader might counter that a lot of people over-value their own cars to the tune of 30%...knock that off and you get back to a realistic price. You only have to take a look in Porsche Post or 911 & Porsche World to find dozens of over-priced cars. Most main dealers for "prestige cars" work on a margin of at least £2k on a used car.
you have to be realistic with price & spec,,,,,
if you need to sell at this time of year you are going to have to hit a bid or accept a low offer..
don't flame me,,but tips with savannah are not the most generically desirable combo...unless you find that particular buyer...
I sold an 02 996 I had from new, in the late summer, keep persevering there are buyers out there.
You have to be enthusiastic and be politely firm when you get people call and tell you what the car is worth...stick at it,,,but seasonals are in play right now.
if you need to sell at this time of year you are going to have to hit a bid or accept a low offer..
don't flame me,,but tips with savannah are not the most generically desirable combo...unless you find that particular buyer...
I sold an 02 996 I had from new, in the late summer, keep persevering there are buyers out there.
You have to be enthusiastic and be politely firm when you get people call and tell you what the car is worth...stick at it,,,but seasonals are in play right now.
Agree but here is a real life scenaio...of the same car
Private Seller had car for sale for £37,995 but had no private takers.
Porsche dealer had offered £33k for car and had one virtually identical (and sold) for £43,995. The car above (private sale one) needed £2k of reconditiong and so an OPC required a £9k clear margin.
A specialist stepped in and gave the guy £34k. After £1k recon cost (lower than main dealer) he advertised and sold the car immediately for £39.5k.
The same buyer could have gone along to the private seller and bought the car for £36k..spent the 1 k and saved £3k.
Its a damn license to print money......and of course they moan about their showrooms and VAT and how risky it all is..I blame naive buyers..who are these morons who pay the £9k margins to Porsche dealer..I can understand them doing it once and getting fingers burnt but it doesnt seem to be doing the dealers any harm!
>> Edited by kamal_raza on Thursday 11th December 12:22
Private Seller had car for sale for £37,995 but had no private takers.
Porsche dealer had offered £33k for car and had one virtually identical (and sold) for £43,995. The car above (private sale one) needed £2k of reconditiong and so an OPC required a £9k clear margin.
A specialist stepped in and gave the guy £34k. After £1k recon cost (lower than main dealer) he advertised and sold the car immediately for £39.5k.
The same buyer could have gone along to the private seller and bought the car for £36k..spent the 1 k and saved £3k.
Its a damn license to print money......and of course they moan about their showrooms and VAT and how risky it all is..I blame naive buyers..who are these morons who pay the £9k margins to Porsche dealer..I can understand them doing it once and getting fingers burnt but it doesnt seem to be doing the dealers any harm!
>> Edited by kamal_raza on Thursday 11th December 12:22
Tips are very sought after in London...
Most Ocean blue cars seem to have Savannah...Portiacraft from whom I bought the car from seem to sell this combo all day long. if it was Necraphyliac (Nephrite) green or something then I would see it as a problem..My last car (Boxster) was black with savannah and sold in 2 days on a sale or return basis and achived £28k (compared to the £24k offered in trade in by OPC)
To be honest I have every faith that the car will be sold but I just lament at the amount of idots who offered me £30k on ebay!
Most Ocean blue cars seem to have Savannah...Portiacraft from whom I bought the car from seem to sell this combo all day long. if it was Necraphyliac (Nephrite) green or something then I would see it as a problem..My last car (Boxster) was black with savannah and sold in 2 days on a sale or return basis and achived £28k (compared to the £24k offered in trade in by OPC)
To be honest I have every faith that the car will be sold but I just lament at the amount of idots who offered me £30k on ebay!
kamal_raza said:
Its a damn license to print money......and of course they moan about their showrooms and VAT and how risky it all is..I blame naive buyers..who are these morons who pay the £9k margins to Porsche dealer..I can understand them doing it once and getting fingers burnt but it doesnt seem to be doing the dealers any harm!
Become a used Porsche dealer then.
DAZ
Edited to say last summer I spotted someone had a particluarly rare spec car advertised on PH for £57k, I would swear that 10 days later the same car was advertised in the sunday times by a trader at £64k.
>> Edited by dazren on Wednesday 10th December 21:10
It always pays to look at things from the other side of the fence before making assumptions over profiteering, although looking at this example it is hard to justify the OPC: Take the £3000 "profit" and break it down:
VAT £446.81
40% tax £1021.28
true profit £1531.91
Out of this true profit the dealer has to valet it for sale, advertise it, insure it whilst on his patch & being driven, take customers for demonstration drives, pay overheads and finally warranty the vehicle for 90 days (by law).
Not a bad deal if you ask me on a £40,000 car that could cost a small fortune to fix if it went wrong?
Interesting thread.
Can't believe people only offered £30k. I've seen normal 993s going for more, private and trade! Just be patient and someone will buy it... Christmas is a bad time to sell a car cos people have other priorities for their money...
Also, I think the colour choice is a bit 'specialist'... I've seen that combo of colours and don't think it's that nice :shrug:
Are you allowed to charge VAT on a used car??? I thought VAT was already paid when it was new?
Can't believe people only offered £30k. I've seen normal 993s going for more, private and trade! Just be patient and someone will buy it... Christmas is a bad time to sell a car cos people have other priorities for their money...
Also, I think the colour choice is a bit 'specialist'... I've seen that combo of colours and don't think it's that nice :shrug:
Are you allowed to charge VAT on a used car??? I thought VAT was already paid when it was new?
kamal_raza said:
Its a damn license to print money......and of course they moan about their showrooms and VAT and how risky it all is..I blame naive buyers..who are these morons who pay the £9k margins to Porsche dealer..I can understand them doing it once and getting fingers burnt but it doesnt seem to be doing the dealers any harm!
Kamal - I can't quite understand what your problem is - At the end of the day it's your choice as to how you dispose of the car.
You have to look at the other side of the coin as well - there are many prospective purchasers of 40-grand motors who simply won't buy from a private seller because they have no protection/warranty etc.
Most of us know that the expensive dealer/specialist cars they sell aren't necessarily better than those advertised privately but there is a perceived 'security' in buying from a dealer for a lot of people (i.e the possibility of returning the car when the engine goes bang on the way home) and for that some people are prepared to stump up the extra cash.
A lot of buyers would say that you're more likely to get your fingers burned buying privately than from a dealer.
At the end of the day, if you're a buyer or a seller, you have the choice.
Just my two-penneth.
Chris
There was a 968cs in blue in the classified of PH, it then appeared on RSJ of slough and sold in a week. Why? As above the percieved risk is less buying from dealers as you get the 90 day cover and getting warrenty thrown in is also easier, I think.
It was only 10% more expensive and it had been on PH for 55 days.
It was only 10% more expensive and it had been on PH for 55 days.
When we moved to 911virgin manor our solicitor charged us £697. I would think including stamps, paper, phone bills, biro ink and a paper box file he probably spent around £27, I could have done the work myself, it`s not rocket science. The fact is he was good at it, he saved me time and took the risk out.
I sleep very comfortably at night, I make an extremely good living, (although I would hope so too given we sell around 350 units a year). We are a little odd in that although we do sell a few cars sale or return the bulk of stock is purchased outright.
For the vendor there is no waiting around, no risk of an uninsured private buyer smashing their car up. No risk of that private buyer turning out to be a confidence trickster defrauing you out of your car - did you realise that if someone defrauds you out of your car (rather than steals it), there is virtually no chance you will get the car back. No risk of the private buyer hounding you and threatening legal action if the car breaks down on them. And do you know the funny bit - we often give the same or more for the car as those hard hitting, bid in the balls private buyers out there who think they are the only person in the world who`s going to buy your car.
As for making money it`s a doodle - go for it.
All you need is somewhere between £700,000 and £1,200,000 or 30-40 used Porsches (actually quite hard to find !), a good platform to sell the cars from, (10-12 years of advertising, old customers, etc usually does the trick), and the ability to deal with people whether buying or selling.
Oh and being able to sit on the fence when someone has a problem and you have to help out even when you don`t think it`s really your fault.
Oh and being able to deal with people calling you at 7.00am or 11.30pm would be useful.
Oh yes, and a good all round knowledge of the cars so you don`t buy any lemons and can sort out any problems that arise.
Oh and the ability to run a multi-million pound business wouldn`t be a bad skill to have. Possibly a grounding in accounting and tax law.
Um, and I suppose somewhere to sell the cars from that is easily accessible would be good. Hmmm, on second thoughts scrap the £700k-£1.2m. £2,000,000 should get somewhere reasonable as a starter. Now then what would the monthly payments on that be if I put down £50,000 myself !!
Don`t give up the dayjob fellas !!
I sleep very comfortably at night, I make an extremely good living, (although I would hope so too given we sell around 350 units a year). We are a little odd in that although we do sell a few cars sale or return the bulk of stock is purchased outright.
For the vendor there is no waiting around, no risk of an uninsured private buyer smashing their car up. No risk of that private buyer turning out to be a confidence trickster defrauing you out of your car - did you realise that if someone defrauds you out of your car (rather than steals it), there is virtually no chance you will get the car back. No risk of the private buyer hounding you and threatening legal action if the car breaks down on them. And do you know the funny bit - we often give the same or more for the car as those hard hitting, bid in the balls private buyers out there who think they are the only person in the world who`s going to buy your car.
As for making money it`s a doodle - go for it.
All you need is somewhere between £700,000 and £1,200,000 or 30-40 used Porsches (actually quite hard to find !), a good platform to sell the cars from, (10-12 years of advertising, old customers, etc usually does the trick), and the ability to deal with people whether buying or selling.
Oh and being able to sit on the fence when someone has a problem and you have to help out even when you don`t think it`s really your fault.
Oh and being able to deal with people calling you at 7.00am or 11.30pm would be useful.
Oh yes, and a good all round knowledge of the cars so you don`t buy any lemons and can sort out any problems that arise.
Oh and the ability to run a multi-million pound business wouldn`t be a bad skill to have. Possibly a grounding in accounting and tax law.
Um, and I suppose somewhere to sell the cars from that is easily accessible would be good. Hmmm, on second thoughts scrap the £700k-£1.2m. £2,000,000 should get somewhere reasonable as a starter. Now then what would the monthly payments on that be if I put down £50,000 myself !!
Don`t give up the dayjob fellas !!
Henry, a lot of what you say is common sense - but bear in mind that a fair proportion of people here run businesses that are more profitable than used car operations so they'll be well clued up on the money angles.
Having said that, I'm sure that the dealers who operate on a smaller scale than '991virgin Enterprises' can still make a living without having such large stock levels - after all a lot of these lower profile dealers might be satisfied with not generating enough profit to run their own racing team!
Having said that, I'm sure that the dealers who operate on a smaller scale than '991virgin Enterprises' can still make a living without having such large stock levels - after all a lot of these lower profile dealers might be satisfied with not generating enough profit to run their own racing team!
Oh...my tears for the poor dealers...which business doesnt pay tax and vat??
In the case of OPCs its even worse...20% margins on new cars....100% on parts.....500% margins on labour.
Going back to my initial observations....
1) Selling Porsches privately attracts complete morons...
2) Buying a used Porsche from an OPC is moroninc and just makes the problem for owners even worse..
3)I guess buying from a specialist is almost fair and hence there are so many of them around.
I think I will take an earlier person's advice and set up a specialist operation...anyone fancy investing..
In the case of OPCs its even worse...20% margins on new cars....100% on parts.....500% margins on labour.
Going back to my initial observations....
1) Selling Porsches privately attracts complete morons...
2) Buying a used Porsche from an OPC is moroninc and just makes the problem for owners even worse..
3)I guess buying from a specialist is almost fair and hence there are so many of them around.
I think I will take an earlier person's advice and set up a specialist operation...anyone fancy investing..
henry-F said:
All you need is somewhere between £700,000 and £1,200,000 or 30-40 used Porsches (actually quite hard to find !), a good platform to sell the cars from, (10-12 years of advertising, old customers, etc usually does the trick), and the ability to deal with people whether buying or selling.
Hey, don't be so hard on Henry. He's got 3 out of 4, and he working on the last one
I think Henry F has hit the nail on the head. There is nothing wrong with making a profit, and the simple fact is that most people are unwilling to take the risk of handing over £40k to a private individual they know nothing about.
Buying from a dealer offers that degree of security - and inevitably that security comes at a price.
Unfortunately kamal raza - the bottom line is that your car is just not worth what you are asking for it. Someone may come along eventually and pay over the odds, but the market does work, and the market does pay fair value.
Having worked in the city for donkeys years , it occurs to me that Porsches are just the same as any asset - stocks and shares, bonds, property , whatever. They have a market value and a spread that is taken by the trader. And what the market will pay, is what the asset is worth.
Lovely cars 996s are ( and I have a 996 C4) the bottom line is that they are not rare. They are a commodity, and so they are treated and traded as a commodity.
Buying from a dealer offers that degree of security - and inevitably that security comes at a price.
Unfortunately kamal raza - the bottom line is that your car is just not worth what you are asking for it. Someone may come along eventually and pay over the odds, but the market does work, and the market does pay fair value.
Having worked in the city for donkeys years , it occurs to me that Porsches are just the same as any asset - stocks and shares, bonds, property , whatever. They have a market value and a spread that is taken by the trader. And what the market will pay, is what the asset is worth.
Lovely cars 996s are ( and I have a 996 C4) the bottom line is that they are not rare. They are a commodity, and so they are treated and traded as a commodity.
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