Need a quick answer over a joiner fitting doors
Discussion
I've got a joiner here doing a job booked in feb! long story but he's delayed this job before now as he 'hadnt realised' the doors interlock.
basically i have a conservatory which has two wooden doors that open inwards and hinge on the outer edge so meet in the middle.
he's got one door up and gone to b&q for something but i notice so far he's not altered the edge of the door - before i question this (as i suspect he's going to leave it flat) is there any real issue with the new doors not being like the old ones?
old door
new door
basically i have a conservatory which has two wooden doors that open inwards and hinge on the outer edge so meet in the middle.
he's got one door up and gone to b&q for something but i notice so far he's not altered the edge of the door - before i question this (as i suspect he's going to leave it flat) is there any real issue with the new doors not being like the old ones?
old door
new door
Busamav said:
you presently have "rebated meeting stiles"
You will need to replicate this or similar.
I have seen some solutions where they just fit a stop on the outside of one leaf , not perfect but does a similar job .
You do need something as wind and rain WILL pi$$ in otherwise.
thanks, i knew there was a reason but hadnt thought of that... You will need to replicate this or similar.
I have seen some solutions where they just fit a stop on the outside of one leaf , not perfect but does a similar job .
You do need something as wind and rain WILL pi$$ in otherwise.
will be interesting to hear what he has to say when he returns..
Can be done with a router. But only plane the doors to fit AFTER rebating, or it'll piss a LOT of water in 
Nailing a bit of timber on the outside would work instead, but that's not what you're paying a trained professional with sharp chisels for. Different doorlock possibly needed also.
Nailing a bit of timber on the outside would work instead, but that's not what you're paying a trained professional with sharp chisels for. Different doorlock possibly needed also.
Busamav said:
you presently have "rebated meeting stiles"
You will need to replicate this or similar.
I have seen some solutions where they just fit a stop on the outside of one leaf , not perfect but does a similar job .
You do need something as wind and rain WILL pi$$ in otherwise.
is there a technical name for the 'leaf' ? You will need to replicate this or similar.
I have seen some solutions where they just fit a stop on the outside of one leaf , not perfect but does a similar job .
You do need something as wind and rain WILL pi$$ in otherwise.
i've just asked this guy to leave as thats what he's going to do
andy43 said:
Can be done with a router. But only plane the doors to fit AFTER rebating, or it'll piss a LOT of water in
Nailing a bit of timber on the outside would work instead, but that's not what you're paying a trained professional with sharp chisels for. Different doorlock possibly needed also.
£930 the insurance company is paying this joker to botch two doors.Nailing a bit of timber on the outside would work instead, but that's not what you're paying a trained professional with sharp chisels for. Different doorlock possibly needed also.
chr15b said:
Glassman said:
So, as it turns out... I'm on a job to hang two doors to a conservatory... Needed to get away for a bit and had to give an excuse of nipping to B&Q 'cause the geezer is a right... oh, hang on....
nope, better.. this 'joiner' had to go buy a saw!right, it's all over now and i promised the full story so here goes for those who are interested. i cannot believe this has all been allowed to take place!
in Feb we had an attempted breakin, we have a medium sized conservatory at the rear of the house which as described above has two doors to the side of the house which are hinged on the outside and meet in the middle.
there was an amount of damage not only to the dead bolts on the inside but also to the structure of one of the doors so when this 'joiner' arrived he said he was going to recommend replacement of them. this resulted in an insurance claim which took a few weeks for quotes and signing off etc.
New doors were ordered from B&Q and they were on immediate back order so it took about another 6 weeks before they were delivered. shortly after we got a call from the joiner to say could he come on Sunday to fit them - sure we said.
He arrived on the Sunday with a lad and took one look at the existing doors and said "cant do it today, hadnt realised they were rebated, will have to send someone else" - so he asked when we could be in and i said i could take a days holiday on the Thursday. he said he'd call me.
Come Wednesday i called him to confirm Thursday was ok - he said he'd been meaning to call me as it wasnt good for him. he asked if he could come at the weekend - i said no, he then asked when he could come so i said i could take another day off the following Thursday.
The next Wednesday i call him again to confirm, i get an answermachine - i leave a message.
Thursday (24th June) i get up to a note on my doormat, "Steve will call today at 12 ish - his mobile number is.... thanks Mike" - so i wait until about 1pm and try to call 'Steve' - it's a dead number. this is a rented property so i call the letting agents and stress my concern that if he arrives really late that he will say he cant do it due to time etc. Steve arrives at 2.30, he says he was only told about the job at 6am, that he was given no address and has been driving round for the last two hours trying to find me until he got hold of Mike moments ago - this is the most ridiculous excuse i've ever heard! - anyway he asks to see the door. i show him through and he says am i in tomorrow (Friday) - at which point i mention that i've booked a day off specially today for this to be done. i point out i'm not happy and state that if it's not done today then neither him nor Mike will be doing the work - i ask that he calls Mike or gives me a number so i can - i'm told he's dropped his mobile so doesnt have one. he then says if he cant do the job the next day there isnt much point in him being there and turns to leave. he gets as far as the front door and says as he's walking up the drive "thank-you for wasting my time" - i shout after him - "i hope it didnt cost you £600" - at this point i notice a silver SAAB in the road - this car i believed to be the owner of the property - i was right.
I called the letting agents for a bit of a rant - detail is all above. then i go out to introduce myself to the landlady who is quite apologetic and trying to piece together what is going on.
cut a long story short the 'joiner' has decided he wants to do a weekend - i'd already told him the next few weren't good, so we agree on today.
Friday i try to call him - no answer then a short while after i get a call from the agents to say he's coming Sunday at 9am.
today he turns up about half nine and starts work, doesn't say much to me and i just let him get on with it. about 10am he says he needs to go to Homebase - off he goes. i go take a look at the work so far and one door is hung but no start on the rebating. [que posts above]
whilst he was out i took measurements of the doors against the opening, the size was bang on - couple of mm to take off at most
He comes back and i'm still not confident on the term rebating (cant get that in my head for some reason) so i ask him as i notice the door already hung, he is going to be modifying it like the old door, he comes over i say like this (point at rebated door) he says (and i quote) "rebated - yes" so i leave him to it - noting he'd brought a new saw down the drive with him.
i noted before i walked out that he was moving two of my patio chairs, i suspect he was intending to use these as a saw bench - instead he removed a fence panel and used the old door on that instead - tools for the job?
i go back in the house and wait for a few minutes before going back for another look, he's chopping about 2cm off the door so i go out.
me: i notice you're cutting quite a lot off that door, before you go too far you will be rebating the door as you said?
him: no - i'm going to put a piece on one of the doors to cover the gap
me: thats not what you said you were going to do - and it's the reason we've been waiting weeks for these doors to be finished
him: are you a joiner (then slightly more aggressive tone) no well you dont know what you are talking about then
me: if you are not going to do the job properly i'd like you to stop and put the old door back up
him: this is not your house you dont tell me how i'm going to do this
me: i think you will find i pay a lot of money to live here and i'd like you to leave
him: [starts sawing again]
me: just leave everything as is and leave
him: i'm no leaving
me: you can either leave or i will call the police and ask them to ask you to leave
-- i go back in the house and look up the non-emergency number
-- i go back out
me: i'm going to ask politely that you leave or i will be calling the police
him: i'm going to leave
me: so why are you still sawing
him: i cant just leave it like this - i'll finish cutting this door and put the old one back up
me: fine
-- that was the last we spoke.
short while later the landlady arrives, had a chat about above (wont go into detail) and she claims this guy had told he that he was going to be using a leaf on the outside (not how she put it)
She wants him to continue on the basis
she trusts him
he will be made to come back if there are any future issues with water or draft
he does discounted work for her.
unfortunately as it's not my house and i'm not paying i dont have much choice but to let him - i know he's bodging this job (or certinately not doing it properly)
as it's a rented property i'm under no obligation to stay - but unfortunately i really like the house, i'm three weeks before the end of my contract and currently we've indicated we'll stay for another fixed term of a year.
i'd be really interested if anyone in the trade is reading this and would like to give a couple of lines on the potential issues that may arise by the work being done the way it is, i have a few myself which i'll post a few pics up shortly.
for those who stuck with it - thanks for reading
in Feb we had an attempted breakin, we have a medium sized conservatory at the rear of the house which as described above has two doors to the side of the house which are hinged on the outside and meet in the middle.
there was an amount of damage not only to the dead bolts on the inside but also to the structure of one of the doors so when this 'joiner' arrived he said he was going to recommend replacement of them. this resulted in an insurance claim which took a few weeks for quotes and signing off etc.
New doors were ordered from B&Q and they were on immediate back order so it took about another 6 weeks before they were delivered. shortly after we got a call from the joiner to say could he come on Sunday to fit them - sure we said.
He arrived on the Sunday with a lad and took one look at the existing doors and said "cant do it today, hadnt realised they were rebated, will have to send someone else" - so he asked when we could be in and i said i could take a days holiday on the Thursday. he said he'd call me.
Come Wednesday i called him to confirm Thursday was ok - he said he'd been meaning to call me as it wasnt good for him. he asked if he could come at the weekend - i said no, he then asked when he could come so i said i could take another day off the following Thursday.
The next Wednesday i call him again to confirm, i get an answermachine - i leave a message.
Thursday (24th June) i get up to a note on my doormat, "Steve will call today at 12 ish - his mobile number is.... thanks Mike" - so i wait until about 1pm and try to call 'Steve' - it's a dead number. this is a rented property so i call the letting agents and stress my concern that if he arrives really late that he will say he cant do it due to time etc. Steve arrives at 2.30, he says he was only told about the job at 6am, that he was given no address and has been driving round for the last two hours trying to find me until he got hold of Mike moments ago - this is the most ridiculous excuse i've ever heard! - anyway he asks to see the door. i show him through and he says am i in tomorrow (Friday) - at which point i mention that i've booked a day off specially today for this to be done. i point out i'm not happy and state that if it's not done today then neither him nor Mike will be doing the work - i ask that he calls Mike or gives me a number so i can - i'm told he's dropped his mobile so doesnt have one. he then says if he cant do the job the next day there isnt much point in him being there and turns to leave. he gets as far as the front door and says as he's walking up the drive "thank-you for wasting my time" - i shout after him - "i hope it didnt cost you £600" - at this point i notice a silver SAAB in the road - this car i believed to be the owner of the property - i was right.
I called the letting agents for a bit of a rant - detail is all above. then i go out to introduce myself to the landlady who is quite apologetic and trying to piece together what is going on.
cut a long story short the 'joiner' has decided he wants to do a weekend - i'd already told him the next few weren't good, so we agree on today.
Friday i try to call him - no answer then a short while after i get a call from the agents to say he's coming Sunday at 9am.
today he turns up about half nine and starts work, doesn't say much to me and i just let him get on with it. about 10am he says he needs to go to Homebase - off he goes. i go take a look at the work so far and one door is hung but no start on the rebating. [que posts above]
whilst he was out i took measurements of the doors against the opening, the size was bang on - couple of mm to take off at most
He comes back and i'm still not confident on the term rebating (cant get that in my head for some reason) so i ask him as i notice the door already hung, he is going to be modifying it like the old door, he comes over i say like this (point at rebated door) he says (and i quote) "rebated - yes" so i leave him to it - noting he'd brought a new saw down the drive with him.
i noted before i walked out that he was moving two of my patio chairs, i suspect he was intending to use these as a saw bench - instead he removed a fence panel and used the old door on that instead - tools for the job?
i go back in the house and wait for a few minutes before going back for another look, he's chopping about 2cm off the door so i go out.
me: i notice you're cutting quite a lot off that door, before you go too far you will be rebating the door as you said?
him: no - i'm going to put a piece on one of the doors to cover the gap
me: thats not what you said you were going to do - and it's the reason we've been waiting weeks for these doors to be finished
him: are you a joiner (then slightly more aggressive tone) no well you dont know what you are talking about then
me: if you are not going to do the job properly i'd like you to stop and put the old door back up
him: this is not your house you dont tell me how i'm going to do this
me: i think you will find i pay a lot of money to live here and i'd like you to leave
him: [starts sawing again]
me: just leave everything as is and leave
him: i'm no leaving
me: you can either leave or i will call the police and ask them to ask you to leave
-- i go back in the house and look up the non-emergency number
-- i go back out
me: i'm going to ask politely that you leave or i will be calling the police
him: i'm going to leave
me: so why are you still sawing
him: i cant just leave it like this - i'll finish cutting this door and put the old one back up
me: fine
-- that was the last we spoke.
short while later the landlady arrives, had a chat about above (wont go into detail) and she claims this guy had told he that he was going to be using a leaf on the outside (not how she put it)
She wants him to continue on the basis
she trusts him
he will be made to come back if there are any future issues with water or draft
he does discounted work for her.
unfortunately as it's not my house and i'm not paying i dont have much choice but to let him - i know he's bodging this job (or certinately not doing it properly)
as it's a rented property i'm under no obligation to stay - but unfortunately i really like the house, i'm three weeks before the end of my contract and currently we've indicated we'll stay for another fixed term of a year.
i'd be really interested if anyone in the trade is reading this and would like to give a couple of lines on the potential issues that may arise by the work being done the way it is, i have a few myself which i'll post a few pics up shortly.
for those who stuck with it - thanks for reading
Lock they've bought - correct for the job if they're going for a 'leaf' ?
Doors as they currently hang
Closeup of the bottom of the door, the frame has a metal channel at the bottom, the bit that sticks out (i assume) is to stop rain running down the door and straight into the frame - if he uses a leaf then this arrangement wont be possible? - will we get a buildup of water in the rain?
Doors as they currently hang
Closeup of the bottom of the door, the frame has a metal channel at the bottom, the bit that sticks out (i assume) is to stop rain running down the door and straight into the frame - if he uses a leaf then this arrangement wont be possible? - will we get a buildup of water in the rain?
Geezer-20v said:
Fixing a baton to one of the leafs to act as a catch is quite common and if done properly (i.e. screwed a glued) it shouldn't allow water in.
To me its a bit of a short-cut as rebating both doors will leave a much nicer finish, but in this case I would say its down to the landlady.
yep i agree, at the time it all kicked off i didnt have her input and based on the nearly two months delay because of the rebating - i felt at the time as i do now he was cutting corners. to say i'm not happy about the situation is an understatement, however the casting vote isnt mine.To me its a bit of a short-cut as rebating both doors will leave a much nicer finish, but in this case I would say its down to the landlady.
i do however feel a small amount of satisfaction in that i've inconvenienced him today, semi revenge
The "leaf" is the actual door itself not a component or feature of it. The correct method is to rebate the door, ideally with a router. A rebate lock set will be required. I would fit flush bolts for added security.
Yes a baton can be fitted to the face of the door to cover the gap and stop the rain but it's far from ideal.
A weather bar should be fitted to the bottom of both doors regardless of the method used.
It is the Landlady's decision how the job is done.
Yes a baton can be fitted to the face of the door to cover the gap and stop the rain but it's far from ideal.
A weather bar should be fitted to the bottom of both doors regardless of the method used.
It is the Landlady's decision how the job is done.
Edited by astroarcadia on Sunday 11th July 18:57
Didn't realise you were only a tenant. TBH does not sound to me like you have much of a leg to stand on. It's not your house, you don't have a say as to how the door is installed.
Did you rent the place furnished or unfurnished and what sort of contents policy have you got? That might be your only cause to complain to the landlord - if the place is not secure or your property is being damaged b
y water ingress.
Did you rent the place furnished or unfurnished and what sort of contents policy have you got? That might be your only cause to complain to the landlord - if the place is not secure or your property is being damaged b
y water ingress.
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