Speed limit on dual carriageway (single lane)

[theboss]

Guys, can I get an absolutely definitive answer as to what speed limit applies on a road that consists of 'dual carriageways' with single lanes?

Here's an example, the A449 northbound carriageway near Worcester.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&a...

I interpret this as a 'dual carriageway' by definition as there are two carriageways separated by a central reservation, and therefore a 70mph national speed limit applies in either direction. Whilst traversing this road once I had a police offer tell me very insistently that I was wrong, and that a 60mph limit applies on any section of single-lane carriageway. I wasn't pulled over - the plod happened to be a family member sat in the front seat of my car.

[Hooli]

I'd say 70mph too, but I'm no expert.

[STW2010]

If it is a single lane heading in one direction then it is a 60 mph limit. As far as I'm aware it is only 70 mph where there is at least two lanes going in the same direction

[miniman]

The highway code seems inconclusive:

Dual carriageways
A dual carriageway is a road which has a central reservation to separate the carriageways.
137
On a two-lane dual carriageway you should stay in the left-hand lane. Use the right-hand lane for overtaking or turning right. After overtaking, move back to the left-hand lane when it is safe to do so.
138
On a three-lane dual carriageway, you may use the middle lane or the right-hand lane to overtake but return to the middle and then the left-hand lane when it is safe.
139
Climbing and crawler lanes. These are provided on some hills. Use this lane if you are driving a slow-moving vehicle or if there are vehicles behind you wishing to overtake. Be aware of the signs and road markings which indicate the lane is about to end.

So per the first statement, you were indeed on a dual carriageway. However there's no mention of less than two lanes per carriageway.

[Hooli]

miniman said:

The highway code seems inconclusive:

Dual carriageways
A dual carriageway is a road which has a central reservation to separate the carriageways.

Sounds clear to me, the speedlimits section just says dual carriageways without defining a number of lanes & your above quote defines a dual carriageway.

[Puddenchucker]

From one of DVDs posts on the subject:

DVD said:

Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 Schedule 6 Part IV deals with speed limits and in its intrepretation states this definition:

“dual-carriageway road” means a road part of which consists of a central reservation to separate a carriageway to be used by vehicles proceeding in one direction from a carriageway to be used by vehicles proceeding in the opposite direction"

That what is mentioned falls within this definition and the limit is NSL unless the contrary is signed or there are street lighting 200 yards apart with no NSL repeaters.

In other words, as long as there is a physical divider between the carriageways, it's a dual carriageway.
The number of lanes in either direction is irrelevant.

[Puff the magic..]

theboss said:

Guys, can I get an absolutely definitive answer as to what speed limit applies on a road that consists of 'dual carriageways' with single lanes?

Here's an example, the A449 northbound carriageway near Worcester.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&a...

I interpret this as a 'dual carriageway' by definition as there are two carriageways separated by a central reservation, and therefore a 70mph national speed limit applies in either direction. Whilst traversing this road once I had a police offer tell me very insistently that I was wrong, and that a 60mph limit applies on any section of single-lane carriageway. I wasn't pulled over - the plod happened to be a family member sat in the front seat of my car.

70 for cars and motorcycles unless otherwise signed.

[theboss]

Hooli said:

miniman said:

The highway code seems inconclusive:

Dual carriageways
A dual carriageway is a road which has a central reservation to separate the carriageways.

Sounds clear to me, the speedlimits section just says dual carriageways without defining a number of lanes & your above quote defines a dual carriageway.

That was exactly my reasoning as well. But having searched around for a conclusive answer I see a pretty even number of people arguing either 60mph or 70mph with no firm answer from the highway code. If I'm right and it's 70 then my experience goes to show that some police officers don't know either. This type of road layout is becoming increasingly common as many older A road DCs are hatched down to single lanes on safety grounds, so it would be useful to get a straight answer.

[Nigel Worc's]

70 mph for cars etc, but beware of the road you've listed, and (and I would hope you know this ..... otherwise you'll find out pdq) most of the A449 from worcester to Kidderminster is 50 mph (dual carrageway), and the last single carrageway bit is 40 mph

cos the locals want it that way !

[cazzer]

70 MPH categorically stated and well explained on the ABD site.

http://www.abd.org.uk/know_your_speed_limits.htm

ABD said:

While most drivers are clear about what a motorway is, some are confused about the definition of a dual carriageway. For a road to be classed as a dual carriageway, the two directions of traffic flow must be physically separated by a central reservation. A road where the two directions of flow are separated only by lines painted on the road surface is a single carriageway, regardless of the number of traffic lanes that may be available to the traffic in each direction. So a road with three or four lanes is still a single carriageway if there is no central reservation

Edited by cazzer on Tuesday 9th November 22:28

[tvrgit]

theboss said:

...This type of road layout is becoming increasingly common as many older A road DCs are hatched down to single lanes on safety grounds.

Paint hatching doesn't count as a "physical barrier" so if it's only paint separating the traffic, it's not a dual carriageway, it's still a single carriageway, and the NSL limit is 60 for cars.

ETA I re-read this and realised what you meant - the limit on a hatched-down DC would still be 70.

Edited by tvrgit on Tuesday 9th November 22:37

[theboss]

Nigel Worc's said:

70 mph for cars etc, but beware of the road you've listed, and (and I would hope you know this ..... otherwise you'll find out pdq) most of the A449 from worcester to Kidderminster is 50 mph (dual carrageway), and the last single carrageway bit is 40 mph

cos the locals want it that way !

It's a pathetic stretch of road. The heavily enforced 50mph section (which I don't particularly disagree with given the proximity of some housing plus a school) seems to have caused people to blindly slow down to the extent that the 50mph sections are sometimes crawling at 35-40mph and people flash in disbelief when you pass at 50. And I'm talking about when I drive this road most often which is on a late night weekend journey back from the South, not 9am on a Monday morning when it's head-to-tail towards Worcester and the school signs are up. I also see people back right off for the static cameras despite them all being situated in NSL zones, it's not uncommon for somebody to be doing 50 and still brake like mad for the camera. I hate this road but unfortunately it's the only route back to civilisation from where I live!!

[Nigel Worc's]

You AGREE with the limits ?

It's you is it ?

Well you don't deserve to be allowed to post on here to be honest !

[Hooli]

FIGHT
FIGHT
FIGHT!

[theboss]

Nigel Worc's said:

You AGREE with the limits ?

It's you is it ?

Well you don't deserve to be allowed to post on here to be honest !

I didn't say I agree with them... the point I tried to make, unsuccessfully, is that the road feels ridiculously and frustratingly slow not so much because of the limits (whether they are deemed overly harsh or not), but because people refuse to do the limits, even in the sections that shouldn't really be limited in the first place. So it's not uncommon to sit on a stretch of straight dual carriageway that was probably NSL for most of the last century but that is now restricted to 50 and hatched off, and yet some twunt decides in their safety focussed view of the world that it's really actually only fit for 35.

Edited by theboss on Tuesday 9th November 23:17

[Red Devil]

theboss said:

Guys, can I get an absolutely definitive answer as to what speed limit applies on a road that consists of 'dual carriageways' with single lanes?

Here's an example, the A449 northbound carriageway near Worcester.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&a...

I interpret this as a 'dual carriageway' by definition as there are two carriageways separated by a central reservation, and therefore a 70mph national speed limit applies in either direction. Whilst traversing this road once I had a police offer tell me very insistently that I was wrong, and that a 60mph limit applies on any section of single-lane carriageway. I wasn't pulled over - the plod happened to be a family member sat in the front seat of my car.

No restriction signs anywhere on the section pictured so - as others have pointed out - NSL. Your family member is giving you incorrect information which, given they are in 'the job', is not only astonishing but disturbing.

I really don't understand why some people seem unable to grasp the distinction between lanes and carriageways. My driving instructor explained this to me over 40 years ago. Maybe the calibre of instructors has gone down over the years. That might go some way to explain why the general standard of driving is getting worse.

[streaky]

STW2010 said:

If it is a single lane heading in one direction then it is a 60 mph limit. As far as I'm aware it is only 70 mph where there is at least two lanes going in the same direction

Rubbish! How many times do we have to explain this?

Mods - could we have a 'sticky' covering this ... please?

Streaky

[Funkateer]

I assume this short stretch of the A616 Stocksbridge bypass also goes up to 70 past the junction as it's NSL.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&am...

The NSL is enforced by SPECS cameras to add to the confusion.

Edited by Funkateer on Wednesday 10th November 06:12

[STW2010]

streaky said:

STW2010 said:

If it is a single lane heading in one direction then it is a 60 mph limit. As far as I'm aware it is only 70 mph where there is at least two lanes going in the same direction

Rubbish! How many times do we have to explain this?

Mods - could we have a 'sticky' covering this ... please?

Streaky

I apologise for not having the same superior knowledge of you. If you don't like explaining things, then don't open the thread? Potentially outrageous idea, and one that might seem unbelievably novel, but there you go.

[tvrgit]

STW2010 said:

streaky said:

STW2010 said:

If it is a single lane heading in one direction then it is a 60 mph limit. As far as I'm aware it is only 70 mph where there is at least two lanes going in the same direction

Rubbish! How many times do we have to explain this?

Mods - could we have a 'sticky' covering this ... please?

Streaky

I apologise for not having the same superior knowledge of you. If you don't like explaining things, then don't open the thread? Potentially outrageous idea, and one that might seem unbelievably novel, but there you go.

Another idea, even more unbelievably novel, is that people who don't know what they are talking about might avoid trying to sound as if they do.

Even more unlikely to catch on though, so can we call it a draw?