Continuous insurance from early 2011 if not SORN'd

[Compo_Simmonite]

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicl...

Paul H

[davepoth]

Makes sense really - if it's taxed it'll be on the road.

[Gizmo!]

Good. I'd been wondering why they don't do that already.

[plg]

Which implies that they aren't bringing in the need to insure SORNd vehicles - which was an option I think?

[saaby93]

It does not make sense. Theres been loads of discussions in SP&L .
Its a hangover from the last government and hopefully its not going to happen
At the moment a huge number of classic car owners have their cars taxed all year round ( usally for free) and insure them for the few days they fancy taking them out on the road.
With this crazy idea theyd either have to insure all year round
or theyd have to SORN in between. It takes days/week to SORN UNSORN and as far as I know can only be done for whole months for which the insurance would have to be the same.

So you have your classic car SORNed. It's a nice sunny day and yo ufancy taking it up the road. Are you going to go through the palava of unSORNing waiting a few days/week for the docs , insuring then taking your P&J out?
Or not bother and take it out hoping no-one wil notice

All its going to do is create more uninsured use on the roads.
Typical unthought through legislation

[plg]

saaby93 said:

It does not make sense. Theres been loads of discussions in SP&L .
Its a hangover from the last government and hopefully its not going to happen
At the moment a huge number of classic car owners have their cars taxed all year round ( usally for free) and insure them for the few days they fancy taking them out on the road.
With this crazy idea theyd either have to insure all year round
or theyd have to SORN in between. It takes days/week to SORN UNSORN and as far as I know can only be done for whole months for which the insurance would have to be the same.

So you have your classic car SORNed. It's a nice sunny day and yo ufancy taking it up the road. Are you going to go through the palava of unSORNing waiting a few days/week for the docs , insuring then taking your P&J out?
Or not bother and take it out hoping no-one wil notice

All its going to do is create more uninsured use on the roads.
Typical unthought through legislation

I think the logic (I'm not agreeing with it, just extending the discussion) is that those that can afford to run a classic/multiple classics can also afford to insure them.

Multi-car or fleet classic insurance isn't that expensive - certainly not compared to the rolling costs of keeping a classic on the road.

I'm sure insurance companies will bring a product to market to support those with multiple cars at a fair rate - markets do normally fill the gaps. I'm sure someone will offer a "classic fleet insurance, named cars, providing you only drive one on the road at any one time" if there is a market that will buy them.

It's not that badly thought through - it's hardly going to impact lower economic groups from being able to go to work/earn money/live. It's a minor cost increase to a demographic that can probably afford it.

What do the owners do now - leave them uninsured? What happens if they are stolen?

[saaby93]

plg said:

What do the owners do now - leave them uninsured? What happens if they are stolen?

I dont think they tend to get stolen - theyre only worth about £1,000? and usually a list of todo jobs as long as your arm
No the annual costs arent much as you can easily change the oil and doesnt need the electronic service aids of modern cars.
How much would annual insurance cost compared to a few days?

[plg]

saaby93 said:

plg said:

What do the owners do now - leave them uninsured? What happens if they are stolen?

I dont think they tend to get stolen - theyre only worth about £1,000? and usually a list of todo jobs as long as your arm
No the annual costs arent much as you can easily change the oil and doesnt need the electronic service aids of modern cars.
How much would annual insurance cost compared to a few days?

I guess it depends on the classic. Some are real project cars that have few road trips, some are out in the summer months on a near daily basis.

The hardest hit will be those that lay it up over the winter and would normally use it on a nice clear salt free day with the impossibility of unsorning.

The last quote I had on a £2000 classic was £115 for classic insurance. Or 1.5 tanks of fuel for it. Day insurance is about £15 a day at a guess? I can't imagine owning a classic of any form that I used for less than 10 trips on the road a year.

A nice compromise would be if they allowed you to unSORN via the web, instantly?

[Jimbo_vx]

saaby93 said:

It does not make sense. Theres been loads of discussions in SP&L .
Its a hangover from the last government and hopefully its not going to happen
At the moment a huge number of classic car owners have their cars taxed all year round ( usally for free) and insure them for the few days they fancy taking them out on the road.
With this crazy idea theyd either have to insure all year round
or theyd have to SORN in between. It takes days/week to SORN UNSORN and as far as I know can only be done for whole months for which the insurance would have to be the same.

So you have your classic car SORNed. It's a nice sunny day and yo ufancy taking it up the road. Are you going to go through the palava of unSORNing waiting a few days/week for the docs , insuring then taking your P&J out?
Or not bother and take it out hoping no-one wil notice

All its going to do is create more uninsured use on the roads.
Typical unthought through legislation

This post is wrong on pretty much every count and it's orginator quite clearly does not own a classic/occasionally diven car.

First of all, it doesn't take 'days/week' to Sorn. It takes 10min. It is the case that when sorning and un-sorning regularly you will lose out as only full month's tax car be refunded. If the car is taxed all year round as the poster suggested then there is even less of an issue.

Second, most classic car owners do not keep their cars uninsured. They go onto flexible policies, where they go from being laid-up to road insurances throughout the year.

Third, you do not have to wait for any documentation referencing sorn/unsorn in order to drive on the road. The website is virtually instant.

Very few classic car owners i know, will 'take it out hoping no-one wil notice' so it is very unlikely that this already very small percentages of cars on the road will increase the number of uninsured drivers. And with the benifit of this legislation will have on the mainstream, it will most likely reduce the number of uninsured drivers.

Hope this clears up the ill throught through post above.

Edited by Jimbo_vx on Wednesday 24th November 10:03

[saaby93]

Jimbo_vx said:

This post is wrong on pretty much every count and it's orginator quite clearly does not own a classic/occasionally diven car.

First of all, it doesn't take 'days/week' to Sorn. It takes 10min. It is the case that when sorning and un-sorning regularly you will lose out as only full month's tax car be refunded. If the car is taxed all year round as the poster suggested then there is even less of an issue.

Second, most classic car owners do not keep their cars uninsured. They go onto flexible policies, where they go from being laid-up to road insurances throughout the year.

Third, you do not have to wait for any documentation referencing sorn/unsorn in order to drive on the road. The website is virtually instant.

Thanks Jim but youve made the mistake of assuming that you untax the car and SORN it when youre not using it
Most that I know leave it taxed all year round - especially so where its free.
How long does it take to get a new tax disc when you Unsorn? Or do you put a piece of paper in the tax disc holder?
With the current system you can just phone up for a few days( or a week) insurance when you need to

With the proposed system its more complicated than that and not immediate so its easier not to bother( see above)
I can only see it leading to more uninsured vehicles being used on the road.

The danger of forseeable unforseen consequences
There have been a number of topics on it eg
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Edited by saaby93 on Wednesday 24th November 10:12

[Jimbo_vx]

If you keep the car taxed then you can sorn/unsorn at your heart contents. You do not have to return the tax disk unless you want a refund.

[plg]

I think you misunderstand "the law of unintended consequences" especially when it comes to government (of any party).

Unintended consequences is generally used when one decision has a consequential impact that whilst foreseeable, was not sufficiently analysed at the time of legislation.

For example, stricter rules on tenant behaviour in council housing is a nice idea from one department, and whilst may improve the living standards for some, may also provide a knock on effect as displacement housing is needed, an increased cost of social care, possibly displaced employment and higher council tax costs.

This is a fairly simple law that isn't terribly anti-motorist and those "classic" owners that "choose", and I emphasise, "choose", to drive their classic uninsured do so not because of any legislation, but because of a selfish desire to "run the risk" rather than comply.

Your comment would be fair if people were, say, having to be credit checked to a certain score to get insurance, or having to post a £1000 deposit against insurance, as that would "force" some demographic groups to take the risk as they needed the transport to get to work, and will be disenfranchised without it due to a lack of other options.

But we aren't. We are talking about classic car owners for whom it is a 2nd or 3rd car used a few days/weeks a year.

Edited by plg on Wednesday 24th November 10:17

[Hip2Bsquare]

I assume that if it is insured and not taxed for a while, even if it is exempt - you receive the recently introduced £80 fine?

[saaby93]

plg said:

I think you misunderstand "the law of unintended consequences" especially when it comes to government (of any party).

Unintended consequences is generally used when one decision has a consequential impact that whilst foreseeable, was not sufficiently analysed at the time of legislation.

This is a fairly simple law that isn't terribly anti-motorist and those "classic" owners that "choose", and I emphasise, "choose", to drive their classic uninsured do so not because of any legislation, but because of a selfish desire to "run the risk" rather than comply.

But we aren't. We are talking about classic car owners for whom it is a 2nd or 3rd car used a few days/weeks a year.

I didn't say it was selfish
I said it would be next to unworkable
Obviously they'd want to use the system as intended if it was workable.

However there comes a point when it's easier not to use the system and I think this is what this does.

I was going to repeat what I'd said above, but no point

[plg]

Indeed. Happy to agree to differ.

[saaby93]

Interesting what Jim said though
that you can keep the car taxed while its SORNed
Didnt know that

[pits]

The DVLA are a bunch of useless fkwits who can't tell their arse from their elbow, I can see a lot of people getting pissed off with them even more if this happens and people get caught out by it, only to be faced with the DVLA attitude of "You're wrong regardless of what evidence and proof you have to prove you are right, you are wrong, because my computer says you're wrong so nerrr, pay us lots of money or we will take you to court.

[Noger]

I think the idea that classic car owners wake up one Sunday and think "Might take the old girl out" and then are going stress about Sorn and Insurance is rather fanciful.

[saaby93]

Noger said:

I think the idea that classic car owners wake up one Sunday and think "Might take the old girl out" and then are going stress about Sorn and Insurance is rather fanciful.

I think that's what I said
At least with the current system they only have to phone up about insurance

No one has said what is the benefit of continuous insurance compared to insurance when you want it

[Chiswickboy]

Jimbo_vx said:

If you keep the car taxed then you can sorn/unsorn at your heart contents. You do not have to return the tax disk unless you want a refund.

Perhaps that is how it works now but according to the OP's link it appears that you will need to surrender your tax disk when SORNing (even if the disk is free).

"If you are keeping your vehicle off the road, make sure that you have submitted a SORN declaration to DVLA. If the vehicle is taxed you need to return the disc (including nil value discs) to DVLA using a V14 form. You can make a SORN declaration at the same time as returning the disc on the V14."