Parking Eye & Underhand Tactics
Discussion
10 Pence Short said:
Grenoble said:
And the realist in me says, for a company persuing a civil offence of a parking charge, it would be NFA all the way to the bank by the CPS.
They weren't interested in Huhne and Pryce over an 8 year old speeding ticket worth £60, so you might be right.Or you might not.
10 Pence Short said:
They weren't interested in Huhne and Pryce over an 8 year old speeding ticket worth £60, so you might be right.
Or you might not.
You are mixing things up. One was a speeding fine, the other a quasi-debt. If you think they are treated the same....Or you might not.
Show me a case where someone has been convicted of PCOJ from a county court action.
Cliftonite said:
That was PCOJ though, wasn't it? A quite different saucepan of oysters!
If you concoct a web of lies to pretend you weren't the driver in order to win a civil case, you are perverting the course of justice. It matters not if it's a civil or criminal case at the heart of it.Grenoble said:
You are mixing things up. One was a speeding fine, the other a quasi-debt. If you think they are treated the same....
Show me a case where someone has been convicted of PCOJ from a county court action.
You appear to suggest that a lie to the civil court will not be dealt with as seriously as a lie to a criminal one.Show me a case where someone has been convicted of PCOJ from a county court action.
I've referred you to the case of Jeffery Archer, which is one of the leading authorities on PCoJ, and happens to be in a civil case.
Edited by 10 Pence Short on Saturday 1st June 22:37
10 Pence Short said:
You appear to suggest that a lie to the civil court will not be dealt with as seriously as a lie to a criminal one.
On what basis or experience do you make this point?
I don't dispute your point of principle and legality. On what basis or experience do you make this point?
I dispute the reality - it would be NFA. County court is he said / she said and geared to small issues.
I'm happy to be proven wrong - show me some cases...
Circular argument old chap.
As you say, they are not reported. But I can find no references to a crown court case emerging from evidence presented at a county court case as a result of evidence presented at county court.
Archer is a good proof point that pcoj, etc can emerge from civil proceedings, but that was from a libel trial, me one of o,e profile.
I have agreed with you on legal principle. If the CPS prosecuted every false statement in county court, the system would explode...
We can argue the point of law (which I have agreed with you on), or we argue the reality of are people charged with pcoj from county court proceedings...
As you say, they are not reported. But I can find no references to a crown court case emerging from evidence presented at a county court case as a result of evidence presented at county court.
Archer is a good proof point that pcoj, etc can emerge from civil proceedings, but that was from a libel trial, me one of o,e profile.
I have agreed with you on legal principle. If the CPS prosecuted every false statement in county court, the system would explode...
We can argue the point of law (which I have agreed with you on), or we argue the reality of are people charged with pcoj from county court proceedings...
There will be precious few County Court cases where there is the evidence and the will to proceed with a complaint over PCoJ. That's agreed.
That said, with the evidence and the will, there is nothing in the system that would refuse to pursue PCoJ in the County Court. In fact, I can well imagine a PPC being very keen to push it given the tiniest of opportunities, for the PR it would provide.
Oh, and to answer the idiot above, I have no vested interest in either camp. I dislike rogue PPCs and pricks who abuse others' private land equally.
That said, with the evidence and the will, there is nothing in the system that would refuse to pursue PCoJ in the County Court. In fact, I can well imagine a PPC being very keen to push it given the tiniest of opportunities, for the PR it would provide.
Oh, and to answer the idiot above, I have no vested interest in either camp. I dislike rogue PPCs and pricks who abuse others' private land equally.
[quote=Who me ?]PERHAPS, 10 PENCE SHORT ,might as required in all conflifts declare his interests. Jus my 2 pence worth . ( and a bit less than 10 pence worth).
[/quote]
Put the wine/beer down...
I don't know that he has any conflicts, though he is above average in his understanding of the law.
[/quote]
Put the wine/beer down...
I don't know that he has any conflicts, though he is above average in his understanding of the law.
10 Pence Short said:
Just to clarify- 'pricks' means those who purposely abuse with no intention of being held to account and not those who genuinely make a mistake.
... and thanks for clarifying that too. I had half an inkling you meant me but wasn't sure!!Genuine mistake here. I rarely use motorway service stations and when I do, its normally for a wazz and I'm on my way in ten minutes. This one is about 20 miles from home hence I might have been in there twice before and had not even bothered to check how long I was allowed. Ignorance on my part will cost me.
Bin it and ignore. Wait until they begin to send letters special delivery and can prove receipt. The time, cost of a solicitor and the court will likely result in this going nowhere. If they try to establish a case in the county court, they cannot simply administer costs and verdicts. Incurred costs have to reasonable, accountable and awarded by the court.
It is bully tactics. They can ask for whatever money then want, but won't get a penny until it goes to court (if it gets that far). Even then, they'll have to jump through hoops.
By the way, the clue is in the title of the letter. it is a Parking Charge 'Notice'... not a summons or demand.
Otherwise, ask them if they have a copy of the T&C's in brail on the car park entrance as you have impaired eyesight
It is bully tactics. They can ask for whatever money then want, but won't get a penny until it goes to court (if it gets that far). Even then, they'll have to jump through hoops.
By the way, the clue is in the title of the letter. it is a Parking Charge 'Notice'... not a summons or demand.
Otherwise, ask them if they have a copy of the T&C's in brail on the car park entrance as you have impaired eyesight
Edited by chris1972 on Sunday 2nd June 01:11
10 Pence Short said:
Just to clarify- 'pricks' means those who purposely abuse with no intention of being held to account and not those who genuinely make a mistake.
The difficulty lies in there being no practical way to tell the difference. Unfortunately making a genuine error is visited with the same consequences as a serial abuser. Mercy forms no part of the makeup of any PPC, so playing hard to get is the only strategy which has the slightest chance of being effective.If the charges for overstaying were pitched at a more reasonable level, I don't think that so many people would consider them unjustified.
If the charges were lower they would no longer serve as deterrent to the behaviour they're trying to deter. Bear in mind the PPCs aren't land owners; they are merely providing a service that Land Owners demand. Yet we know that Land Owners make little or no money from PPC activity. This tends to suggest there is a genuine problem if parking is left unchecked and that PPC activity is not purely money for old rope.
Why would land owners risk incurring the wrath of tennents and consumers, for no financial gain to themselves, if it was unnecessary?
Why would land owners risk incurring the wrath of tennents and consumers, for no financial gain to themselves, if it was unnecessary?
In this particular case, I can see why the parking regulations are there. Gordano Services is right by the junction of the motorway so people would use it for parking up and disappearing for the day elsewhere. But for those people who use the services lining the pockets of the landowner then go out and find the £100 notice on their windscreen, that's hard to swallow.
But, as I've said before, it's my own fault.
But, as I've said before, it's my own fault.
10 Pence Short said:
If the charges were lower they would no longer serve as deterrent to the behaviour they're trying to deter.
Do you have any evidence to back up that assertion?10 Pence Short said:
Bear in mind the PPCs aren't land owners; they are merely providing a service that Land Owners demand. Yet we know that Land Owners make little or no money from PPC activity. This tends to suggest there is a genuine problem if parking is left unchecked and that PPC activity is not purely money for old rope.
What has land owners making money got to do with it? Their, perfectly legitimate, interest is controlling/deterring parking not profiting from it. As long as it costs them nothing to implement they couldn't care less how much profit the PPCs make. The only time realisation might dawn is in a retail environment when enough customers complain/vote with their feet. 10 Pence Short said:
Why would land owners risk incurring the wrath of tennents and consumers, for no financial gain to themselves, if it was unnecessary?
Again, I ask you what relevance financial gain for the land owner got to do with it? The PPC financial model is seductive. In many cases its a solution looking for a (non-existent) problem.My argument is not about the rights of the landowner. It's the obscene level of charges imposed by PPCs and their 'la la I'm not listening' approach to any appeal. Add flawed systems/personnel into the mix and it's hardly surprising that many people see it as a form of unjustified extortion.
I used a car park twice in one day. Guess what, it was covered by ANPR and my first exit and second entry failed to be picked up, so I got a love letter. That left me with a choice. Ignore them or try to prove they had cocked up. Being an upstanding citizen I did the latter. The amount of time and money it cost me to see them off beggared belief. So were it to happen again, I would be very much disinclined to play by their rules.
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