Police raids and battering rams
Discussion
On all these cop programmes they have those red battering rams things and every time they have problems smashing the doors (usually UPVC) down. Often taking 30 seconds or more to get the door open and usually only managing to partly open it. Given the occupants time to flush stuff down the loo. (which begs the question why don't they open the drain up ready for this event)
My question is why don't they use locksmiths (there are lots of lockpicking website forums often frequented by locksmiths) who can open most locks within a few minutes silently or do the TV favourite of getting a delivery driver or "gas man" to get them to open the door first?
Or just wait for an occupant to come out, grab him and get the keys?
Seems a bit messy they way it's done now.
My question is why don't they use locksmiths (there are lots of lockpicking website forums often frequented by locksmiths) who can open most locks within a few minutes silently or do the TV favourite of getting a delivery driver or "gas man" to get them to open the door first?
Or just wait for an occupant to come out, grab him and get the keys?
Seems a bit messy they way it's done now.
I have just posted the following in answer to riot compensation claim against the police question. The door the police used the "big key" on at my property was a uPVC door, the door and frame was completely destroyed. i asked the police a similar question to what you have posted. Removing the beeding ( fixed outside)would have gained access to the removal of the double glazed unit,a screwdriver hammer would have removed the cylinder, smashing one double glazed unit would have given foot access to the property. The reply the police gave me is that they only have one way/training of gaining access.
"I presently have a claim for compensation(£750) with my local Police Constabulary, this being due to my tenant (rental property) being reported missing, and the local police decided to use the “big key”, rather than seeking out a relative of the tenant/missing person, or the owner/landlord of the property."
ps. The tenant/missing person was on holiday in America.
"I presently have a claim for compensation(£750) with my local Police Constabulary, this being due to my tenant (rental property) being reported missing, and the local police decided to use the “big key”, rather than seeking out a relative of the tenant/missing person, or the owner/landlord of the property."
ps. The tenant/missing person was on holiday in America.
Wings said:
I have just posted the following in answer to riot compensation claim against the police question. The door the police used the "big key" on at my property was a uPVC door, the door and frame was completely destroyed. i asked the police a similar question to what you have posted. Removing the beeding ( fixed outside)would have gained access to the removal of the double glazed unit,a screwdriver hammer would have removed the cylinder, smashing one double glazed unit would have given foot access to the property. The reply the police gave me is that they only have one way/training of gaining access.
"I presently have a claim for compensation(£750) with my local Police Constabulary, this being due to my tenant (rental property) being reported missing, and the local police decided to use the “big key”, rather than seeking out a relative of the tenant/missing person, or the owner/landlord of the property."
ps. The tenant/missing person was on holiday in America.
If the Police have a lawful power of entry, chances are your claim will be politely declined."I presently have a claim for compensation(£750) with my local Police Constabulary, this being due to my tenant (rental property) being reported missing, and the local police decided to use the “big key”, rather than seeking out a relative of the tenant/missing person, or the owner/landlord of the property."
ps. The tenant/missing person was on holiday in America.
The method of entry is designed to be the safest and most effective way of effecting entry in an emergency (rather than waiting a few hours until a locksmith can make it), if they are breaking in to potentially save life, a third party who makes money from renting out the property is not going to register a great concern.
I have yet to see the more rapid entry methods shown in any great detail on the reality Cops with Cameras programmes - I guess thet don't want to give the game away, eh?
PS
The standard lock is often supplemented by some additional security in many less classy properties and the element of overwhelming force is generally not a bad way to overcome those.
Edited by Danesgate on Tuesday 9th August 20:41
Danesgate said:
I have yet to see the more rapid entry methods shown
Dutch Police - watch the video:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-12...
Edited by Deva Link on Tuesday 9th August 22:17
Danesgate said:
If the Police have a lawful power of entry, chances are your claim will be politely declined.
The method of entry is designed to be the safest and most effective way of effecting entry in an emergency (rather than waiting a few hours until a locksmith can make it), if they are breaking in to potentially save life, a third party who makes money from renting out the property is not going to register a great concern.
I have yet to see the more rapid entry methods shown in any great detail on the reality Cops with Cameras programmes - I guess thet don't want to give the game away, eh?
PS
The standard lock is often supplemented by some additional security in many less classy properties and the element of overwhelming force is generally not a bad way to overcome those.
I expect my claim to be settled.The method of entry is designed to be the safest and most effective way of effecting entry in an emergency (rather than waiting a few hours until a locksmith can make it), if they are breaking in to potentially save life, a third party who makes money from renting out the property is not going to register a great concern.
I have yet to see the more rapid entry methods shown in any great detail on the reality Cops with Cameras programmes - I guess thet don't want to give the game away, eh?
PS
The standard lock is often supplemented by some additional security in many less classy properties and the element of overwhelming force is generally not a bad way to overcome those.
Edited by Danesgate on Tuesday 9th August 20:41
Deva Link said:
Holy-Moly they're efficient!GTIR said:
On all these cop programmes they have those red battering rams things and every time they have problems smashing the doors (usually UPVC) down. Often taking 30 seconds or more to get the door open and usually only managing to partly open it. Given the occupants time to flush stuff down the loo. (which begs the question why don't they open the drain up ready for this event)
My question is why don't they use locksmiths (there are lots of lockpicking website forums often frequented by locksmiths) who can open most locks within a few minutes silently or do the TV favourite of getting a delivery driver or "gas man" to get them to open the door first?
Or just wait for an occupant to come out, grab him and get the keys?
Seems a bit messy they way it's done now.
They should ask the Fire Service to help : we have equipment which can open these types of doors in about 30 seconds with minimal noise .My question is why don't they use locksmiths (there are lots of lockpicking website forums often frequented by locksmiths) who can open most locks within a few minutes silently or do the TV favourite of getting a delivery driver or "gas man" to get them to open the door first?
Or just wait for an occupant to come out, grab him and get the keys?
Seems a bit messy they way it's done now.
We also have quicker and noisier methods of entry
Wings, why do you expect your claim to be settled ? Do you expect the Police to wait around for several hours, making polite (& time consuming enquiries) with all & sundry as to the wherabouts of the missing person ? And all the time the party concerned is lying behind a door suffering the effects of a cardiac arrest ?
Whilst I fully appreciate that its inconvenient in the extreme to have your house damaged in this way, the alternative is that the Police do undertake exhaustive enquiries & during the process, the individual dies. The Police then receive a 7 figure claim from the deceaseds dependants &/or estate, the Officers concerned are subject to an internal disciplanary enquiry by there Proffesional Standards Dept & the IPCC & more imortantly a person who could have been saved had a forced entry been made, is now dead. Its very easy to be wise with the benefit f hindsight, though sadly this is not something that is available to the Officers.
A fairly extreme example I agree, but its far from unique & in todays risk adverse Society, its not something the Police want to take a chance on.
Oh & so as to avoid the possibilty of this occuring again, if your tenant is going to be out of the property for any length of time, it might be advantagous for them to tell the BiB of this so so they have a record.
Whilst I fully appreciate that its inconvenient in the extreme to have your house damaged in this way, the alternative is that the Police do undertake exhaustive enquiries & during the process, the individual dies. The Police then receive a 7 figure claim from the deceaseds dependants &/or estate, the Officers concerned are subject to an internal disciplanary enquiry by there Proffesional Standards Dept & the IPCC & more imortantly a person who could have been saved had a forced entry been made, is now dead. Its very easy to be wise with the benefit f hindsight, though sadly this is not something that is available to the Officers.
A fairly extreme example I agree, but its far from unique & in todays risk adverse Society, its not something the Police want to take a chance on.
Oh & so as to avoid the possibilty of this occuring again, if your tenant is going to be out of the property for any length of time, it might be advantagous for them to tell the BiB of this so so they have a record.
A couple of Saturdays we were I suspect very nearly subjected to this treatment.
Away on holiday on a Caravan site, I was woken by lots of banging at 3AM. I was informed by my partner who was a bit more awake that someone was opening the teenage lads window and leaning in shouting at them to open the door, and shining a torch in other windows.
I got up and opened, to have 5 aggressive coppers march in. Chaos from there, and they demanded the lads show themselves. Once they did a security guy took one look and said not them. Suddenly they withdrew with their 3 patrol cars and riot van.
As you can imagine a somewhat disturbed night, and other than being told the next day that it related to a 'serious assault' I have still got no idea what was going on, or why our caravan was chosen. Incidentally, the culprits were caught that night, but not without subjecting at least one other van to the same treatment.
Only one step away from the giant door knocker and if it was a house I wonder....
Away on holiday on a Caravan site, I was woken by lots of banging at 3AM. I was informed by my partner who was a bit more awake that someone was opening the teenage lads window and leaning in shouting at them to open the door, and shining a torch in other windows.
I got up and opened, to have 5 aggressive coppers march in. Chaos from there, and they demanded the lads show themselves. Once they did a security guy took one look and said not them. Suddenly they withdrew with their 3 patrol cars and riot van.
As you can imagine a somewhat disturbed night, and other than being told the next day that it related to a 'serious assault' I have still got no idea what was going on, or why our caravan was chosen. Incidentally, the culprits were caught that night, but not without subjecting at least one other van to the same treatment.
Only one step away from the giant door knocker and if it was a house I wonder....
Robbo101 said:
Wings, why do you expect your claim to be settled ? Do you expect the Police to wait around for several hours, making polite (& time consuming enquiries) with all & sundry as to the wherabouts of the missing person ? And all the time the party concerned is lying behind a door suffering the effects of a cardiac arrest ?
If an adult has been missing long enough to be a missing person they have not just collapsed. Billing the police for the damage seems entirely reasonable.Robbo101 said:
Oh & so as to avoid the possibilty of this occuring again, if your tenant is going to be out of the property for any length of time, it might be advantagous for them to tell the BiB of this so so they have a record.
Why? We're not (yet) a police state.
Fluffnik. Further to your earlier responses :
A) I dont why you're of the opinion that if a person is missing, then they havent just collapsed, or indeed have been incapacitated for several hours/days ? In my previous employ, I routinely dealt with such claims & I can assure you that on numerous occasions members of the public (particularly the elderly) were found directly as a consequence of such tactics & were more than thankful for them. Sadly on other occasions though the call has come in too late & all the BiB find is a decomposing body. Your right though, the OP is more than at liberty to lodge such a claim, but should n't neccesarily expect that it will be paid as a matter ofcourse,
B) Working on the proviso that prevention is better than cure, because it might avoid the potential for a similar set of circumstances to occur again ?
As others have mentioned, it all comes down to the principle of reasonablesness & if the Police can demonstrate that there actions were both proportionate & reasonable, then such a claim should be capable of being contested.
A) I dont why you're of the opinion that if a person is missing, then they havent just collapsed, or indeed have been incapacitated for several hours/days ? In my previous employ, I routinely dealt with such claims & I can assure you that on numerous occasions members of the public (particularly the elderly) were found directly as a consequence of such tactics & were more than thankful for them. Sadly on other occasions though the call has come in too late & all the BiB find is a decomposing body. Your right though, the OP is more than at liberty to lodge such a claim, but should n't neccesarily expect that it will be paid as a matter ofcourse,
B) Working on the proviso that prevention is better than cure, because it might avoid the potential for a similar set of circumstances to occur again ?
As others have mentioned, it all comes down to the principle of reasonablesness & if the Police can demonstrate that there actions were both proportionate & reasonable, then such a claim should be capable of being contested.
I worked in housing, as you can imagine with sort of people that sometimes get housed in Social Housing, Police raids on our properties were a monthly/weekly occourance.
The rule of thumb was that if drugs or other illegal goings on were found and arrests were made, then fair enough the Police rightly broke the door down and we passed the bill for the damage to the resident of the property.
But if a house was raided and nothing was found and no one was arrested for anything, we sent the bill for the door to the Police and they usually paid it surprisingly, as it was seen that they damaged someone's property for no good reason.
The rule of thumb was that if drugs or other illegal goings on were found and arrests were made, then fair enough the Police rightly broke the door down and we passed the bill for the damage to the resident of the property.
But if a house was raided and nothing was found and no one was arrested for anything, we sent the bill for the door to the Police and they usually paid it surprisingly, as it was seen that they damaged someone's property for no good reason.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff