Trailer towing:- B and B+E licence rules explained

[wasbo]

Can i ask a question as i am totally confused by this trailer stuff, it is very specific weight wise;

Citroen relay Van GVW3500 with 9 pax onboard total weight 3040kg(weighed on weighbridge),
Trailer plated 750kg but actual weight 660kg.

3040kg +660kg= 3700kg can this be towed on B licence, I've had mixed answers of no it's over 3500kg and yes because its under 4250kg, 3500kg+750kg.

This is so confusing you need a medal to be able to work it out !!!

Sorry if this is in the previous 22 pages but i am interested in these specific weights as they are relevant to me.

Thanks in advance.

[HustleRussell]

I would wait for R0G’s response but I believe you are fine to tow a 750kg trailer behind a 3.5T regardless of whether you got your licence before or after 1997

[youngricharduk]

wasbo said:

Can i ask a question as i am totally confused by this trailer stuff, it is very specific weight wise;

Citroen relay Van GVW3500 with 9 pax onboard total weight 3040kg(weighed on weighbridge),
Trailer plated 750kg but actual weight 660kg.

3040kg +660kg= 3700kg can this be towed on B licence, I've had mixed answers of no it's over 3500kg and yes because its under 4250kg, 3500kg+750kg.

This is so confusing you need a medal to be able to work it out !!!

Sorry if this is in the previous 22 pages but i am interested in these specific weights as they are relevant to me.

Thanks in advance.

The actual weights don't make a difference when applying to the B licence rules, if the GVW weight is 3500kg for the Citroen as mentioned above you can still tow a trailer plated upto 750kg without taking the B+E test.

[300bhp/ton]

wasbo said:

Can i ask a question as i am totally confused by this trailer stuff, it is very specific weight wise;

Citroen relay Van GVW3500 with 9 pax onboard total weight 3040kg(weighed on weighbridge),
Trailer plated 750kg but actual weight 660kg.

3040kg +660kg= 3700kg can this be towed on B licence, I've had mixed answers of no it's over 3500kg and yes because its under 4250kg, 3500kg+750kg.

This is so confusing you need a medal to be able to work it out !!!

Sorry if this is in the previous 22 pages but i am interested in these specific weights as they are relevant to me.

Thanks in advance.

Yes that would be fine. The law is quite frankly rather insane. They cap the total train weight to 3500kg, but always allow a 750kg MAM trailer, so the Gross Train Weight can in theory be as high as 4250kg.

I'm not familiar with the van, is 3040kg within the vehicles Gross Vehicle Weight?

[R0G]

As already correctly stated a B licence can tow a trailer no more than 750kg plated MAM weight behind any vehicle where the GVW is not over 3500kg

The 3500 total plated weights comes into play when the trailer goes over 750kgs plated MAM weight for B towing

[s2t]

My question relates to the plated trailer values.
My car transporter has a Gross weight value of 2600kgs with a load value of 2050kgs. My race car is 500kgs so the trailer is overkill for the job. My current tovehicle is a Mitsubishi Barbarian with a tow capacity of 3500kgs, so not a problem. I am however thinking of getting a race van with a stated tow capacity of 2000kgs. The racecar and trailer combined I suspect will be 1200-1400kgs so pragmatically not a problem. However I have heard people are being pulled up because of the plate value. If this is so then technically the plate shows 2600kgs against a vehicle towing capacity of 2000kgs notwithstanding the actual towed weight is 1200-1400kgs. Where do I stand?

[R0G]

s2t said:

My question relates to the plated trailer values.
My car transporter has a Gross weight value of 2600kgs with a load value of 2050kgs. My race car is 500kgs so the trailer is overkill for the job. My current tovehicle is a Mitsubishi Barbarian with a tow capacity of 3500kgs, so not a problem. I am however thinking of getting a race van with a stated tow capacity of 2000kgs. The racecar and trailer combined I suspect will be 1200-1400kgs so pragmatically not a problem. However I have heard people are being pulled up because of the plate value. If this is so then technically the plate shows 2600kgs against a vehicle towing capacity of 2000kgs notwithstanding the actual towed weight is 1200-1400kgs. Where do I stand?

There is no law or rule which states that the towing capacity of a vehicle must be able to accommodate the plated MAM of a trailer

There is a myth going around that you can get done because it has the POTENTIAL of exceeding the towing capacity so lets look at that ….

Why have you stopped me officer ?
You are doing 30 in a 30 limit but your car has the a potential to do 70 so I am charging you for that !!!!!!!!!

PS - you need B+E on licence to do what you want to do

[s2t]

Thanks....also have BE

[Too Late]

Hi R0G

I'm back.

Off the back of my thread I am stuck

So I have a provisional B+E it seems. It confused me into thinking I was ok to tow with the 110. Especially since it's kerb weight is 2ton. I thought I will be well under the 3.5 limit. But it's not it's kerb weight on the license. It's the MAM, which is 3ton for a 110

So if I want to tow a 600kg kit car, how can I achieve that? This is bonkers. That means without a trailer, I am at 3.6ton, already over the limit.
I passed my test in 2005

[R0G]

Too Late said:

Hi R0G

I'm back.

Off the back of my thread I am stuck

So I have a provisional B+E it seems. It confused me into thinking I was ok to tow with the 110. Especially since it's kerb weight is 2ton. I thought I will be well under the 3.5 limit. But it's not it's kerb weight on the license. It's the MAM, which is 3ton for a 110

So if I want to tow a 600kg kit car, how can I achieve that? This is bonkers. That means without a trailer, I am at 3.6ton, already over the limit.
I passed my test in 2005

You either need a vehicle with a lower GVW or you need to find a car trailer that weighs 150kg empty and is plated at or can be lower to 750 kg MAM

[HustleRussell]

Too Late said:

So if I want to tow a 600kg kit car, how can I achieve that?

I used a Mondeo, and latterly a 5-series- both had a MAM of less than 2,150kg, with a Brian James trailer which had a MAM of 1,350kg. Both cars made light work of the Caterham and this was legal on my 2006 licence.

[youngricharduk]

Too Late said:

Hi R0G

I'm back.

Off the back of my thread I am stuck

So I have a provisional B+E it seems. It confused me into thinking I was ok to tow with the 110. Especially since it's kerb weight is 2ton. I thought I will be well under the 3.5 limit. But it's not it's kerb weight on the license. It's the MAM, which is 3ton for a 110

So if I want to tow a 600kg kit car, how can I achieve that? This is bonkers. That means without a trailer, I am at 3.6ton, already over the limit.
I passed my test in 2005

The weight of the Kit car doesn't really matter when applying to the B+E rules, as the kit car is on the trailer it's the MAM (mtplm) of the trailer added to the MAM of the 110 that's important as the MAM of the trailer includes the trailer plus anything it's plated to be able to carry. Basically If you want to tow anything other than a small camping trailer you will need to take the test.

p.s. I spent 3 months trying to find ways around it but in the end just took the test so I wouldn't have to worry about it.

[V8RX7]

Reviving this...

For the first time I've bought a car - 2007 Vito Traveliner - with

"Technical permissible maximum towable mass of the trailer" printed on the V5, which is 2000kg

I have always used Gross Train Weight - Actual Van weight = Towable Mass inc trailer

Which is closer to 3000kg

Does the V5 over rule that ?

Edit - I've checked and my previous 07 Vito had no weights in the V5 nor does my 08

Edited by V8RX7 on Thursday 4th April 18:15

[R0G]

V8RX7 said:

Reviving this...

For the first time I've bought a car - 2007 Vito Traveliner - with

"Technical permissible maximum towable mass of the trailer" printed on the V5, which is 2000kg

I have always used Gross Train Weight - Actual Van weight = Towable Mass inc trailer

Which is closer to 3000kg

Does the V5 over rule that ?

Edit - I've checked and my previous 07 Vito had no weights in the V5 nor does my 08

Edited by V8RX7 on Thursday 4th April 18:15

If the V5 states a max towing amount then that's it

Usually but not always the max actual tow weight is GTW minus GVW

[V8RX7]

R0G said:

If the V5 states a max towing amount then that's it

Usually but not always the max actual tow weight is GTW minus GVW

I've discussed GTW - GVW with you before, I agree that is the ideal way to carry load, but when that load is a car you can't carry it in the van.

I've messages from VOSA confirming that the weight can be either carried OR towed as long as I don't exceed GTW - which makes sense really - or have the rules have changed in the last 5 years ?

The only issue can be moving off on a damp hill - I've had a problem when towing 1000kg more than the van weighed - in a FWD van. Not enough weight on the front so it would only wheel spin, I had to reverse to the bottom of the hill.

[R0G]

V8RX7 said:

I've discussed GTW - GVW with you before, I agree that is the ideal way to carry load, but when that load is a car you can't carry it in the van.

I've messages from VOSA confirming that the weight can be either carried OR towed as long as I don't exceed GTW - which makes sense really - or have the rules have changed in the last 5 years ?

The only issue can be moving off on a damp hill - I've had a problem when towing 1000kg more than the van weighed - in a FWD van. Not enough weight on the front so it would only wheel spin, I had to reverse to the bottom of the hill.

Ask DVSA about max tow limits and C&U reg 100 - see what they say about that !

[V8RX7]

R0G said:

Ask DVSA about max tow limits and C&U reg 100 - see what they say about that !

Will do

(I'm not being funny, I need the max tow weight but I don't want to be fined)

I've been towing by what I was told by VOSA - if that's right the above is fine, if you're right then I'd be around 1000kg overloaded.

Edited by V8RX7 on Monday 8th April 10:40

[V8RX7]

R0G said:

Ask DVSA about max tow limits and C&U reg 100 - see what they say about that !

Google suggests the below:


Maintenance and use of vehicle so as not to be a danger, etc

100.—(1) A motor vehicle, every trailer drawn thereby and all parts and accessories of such vehicle and trailer shall at all times be in such condition, and the number of passengers carried by such vehicle or trailer, the manner in which any passengers are carried in or on such vehicle or trailer, and the weight, distribution, packing and adjustment of the load of such vehicle or trailer shall at all times be such, that no danger is caused or is likely to be caused to any person in or on the vehicle or trailer or on a road.

Provided that the provisions of this regulation with regard to the number of passengers carried shall not apply to a vehicle to which the Public Service Vehicles (Carrying Capacity) Regulations 1984 apply.

(2) The load carried by a motor vehicle or trailer shall at all times be so secured, if necessary by physical restraint other than its own weight, and be in such a position, that neither danger nor nuisance is likely to be caused to any person or property by reason of the load or any part thereof falling or being blown from the vehicle or by reason of any other movement of the load or any part thereof in relation to the vehicle.

(3) No motor vehicle or trailer shall be used for any purpose for which it is so unsuitable as to cause or be likely to cause danger or nuisance to any person in or on the vehicle or trailer or on a road.

---

I can't see that's a concern if I stick to the GTW

I admit towing loads heavier than the tow vehicle means you have to be careful, but many vehicles can do so - the worst example being SWB land rovers which can tow 3500kg - my Vito is far more stable being LWB and heavier.

However I will ask DVSA

[V8RX7]

R0G said:

If the V5 states a max towing amount then that's it

Usually but not always the max actual tow weight is GTW minus GVW

I've had a reply, my question and their answer below :

---

I would like clarification on towing limits

My Vito Traveliner has the following weights

GTW 4940kg
GVW 2940kg
Kerb Weight 1850kg

I was informed by VOSA some years ago that as long as I do not exceed the GTW I am ok, but I have been informed regulations may have changed.

Hence I can carry: 2940 - 1850 = 1090kg

I can tow 4940 - 2940 = 2000kg with a fully loaded van

OR I can tow 4940 - 1850 = 3090kg with an empty van

Is the above correct ?

Finally I have owned 3 near identical Vito Traveliners but the one I have just purchased has:
"Technical permissible maximum towable mass of the trailer" printed on the V5, which is 2000kg

Does this overrule the above ?

---

Good morning the train weight regulations as far as I’m aware have not changed, the maximum towable mass your manufacturer states 2000Kg might be to do with the tow bar maximum towable force, therefore it might require checking.

With an empty van 1850Kgs you could tow up to the combination train weight of 4940Kgs but that would be unadvisable as the potential trailer weight would be 3090 Kgs which is more than the van weight.

Regards

Heavy Vehicle Technical Officer.
Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency | Ellipse, Padley Road, Swansea, SA1 8AN

Etited to add - I've noted the small print at the bottom:

I am obliged to emphasise that the advice is the view of DVSA and is not intended to be an interpretation of the law, only a court of law is able to give a legal definitive interpretation

Edited by V8RX7 on Tuesday 16th April 09:07

[R0G]

You forgot to ask them about C&U reg 100 and how insurers view towing over the manufacturers max listed tow capacity

GTW is only one aspect of the towing laws