Question for BiB's Re: OFF DUTY
Discussion
Last week I was on my way to work down the local dual carriageway, very open road no schools/pedestrians etc and there was a black passat kept filling my mirrors.
So me being me gives it a bit of right foot coz some people like the sight/sound of a Cerb hurtling towards the horizon!
Slowed down again then as we came to the end of the dual carriageway he screams up alongside and I look over to see a police badge being held up at the window
and he tells me to put my window down.
He says if he ever sees me driving like that again he would ahve my licence off me....I apolgised and away we go.
Question is, what COULD he have done as he wasn't on duty? Could he have reported me? My word against his? Could he arrest me? It shook me up as I pass Lancs HQ EVERY DAY so must pass quite a few off duty BiBs!!
So me being me gives it a bit of right foot coz some people like the sight/sound of a Cerb hurtling towards the horizon!
Slowed down again then as we came to the end of the dual carriageway he screams up alongside and I look over to see a police badge being held up at the window
and he tells me to put my window down. He says if he ever sees me driving like that again he would ahve my licence off me....I apolgised and away we go.
Question is, what COULD he have done as he wasn't on duty? Could he have reported me? My word against his? Could he arrest me? It shook me up as I pass Lancs HQ EVERY DAY so must pass quite a few off duty BiBs!!
BigBazza said:
Question is, what COULD he have done as he wasn't on duty?
He may not have been "on duty", but we have same powers all the time, whether on or off duty.
BigBazza said:
Could he have reported me?
Yes.
BigBazza said:
My word against his?
Yes.
BigBazza said:
Could he arrest me?
Not for speeding (usually, unless S25 PACE 1984 came into play...)
BigBazza said:
It shook me up as I pass Lancs HQ EVERY DAY so must pass quite a few off duty BiBs!!
And possibly now a few on duty ones, if it's been put on the intelligence system...
If he was tail-gaiting you...he's a bad boy..
..
If he wasn't but you were just speeding...not much is going to happen from that...speeding offences like that, where the bobby is off duty aren't going to go anywhere and it's not worth his hassle.
However, dangerous driving, careless driving etc, (I'm not suggesting you were doing those)...Anyway..those offences he could report you when he was next on duty..
Ideally, another officer will interview you and put the file in, with the original officer being a 'professional witness'.
A colleague of mine, Inspector, on his way home from work on his motorbike recently, was subject to some 'Road Rage' by a scum driver. Following a two lane into one road, the chav kept emergency braking for no reason in an attempt to bring my mate off his bike. My mate filed a report the next day; a sergeant visited the driver who denied everything. The matter ended up at Crown Court. He was found guilty despite having two mates in the car and given 6 points/£300 fine.
I'm sure this will spark a heated debate..but the above is an example that I'm aware of..
Regards,
Street
>> Edited by Streetcop on Tuesday 13th July 21:55
.. If he wasn't but you were just speeding...not much is going to happen from that...speeding offences like that, where the bobby is off duty aren't going to go anywhere and it's not worth his hassle.
However, dangerous driving, careless driving etc, (I'm not suggesting you were doing those)...Anyway..those offences he could report you when he was next on duty..
Ideally, another officer will interview you and put the file in, with the original officer being a 'professional witness'.
A colleague of mine, Inspector, on his way home from work on his motorbike recently, was subject to some 'Road Rage' by a scum driver. Following a two lane into one road, the chav kept emergency braking for no reason in an attempt to bring my mate off his bike. My mate filed a report the next day; a sergeant visited the driver who denied everything. The matter ended up at Crown Court. He was found guilty despite having two mates in the car and given 6 points/£300 fine.
I'm sure this will spark a heated debate..but the above is an example that I'm aware of..
Regards,
Street
>> Edited by Streetcop on Tuesday 13th July 21:55
BigBazza said:
Can I ask how he was found guilty if the officer (presumably human) was up against defendant and 2 witnesses? How does that work?
One word - juries.
BigBazza said:
surely there had to be evidence?
Probably statement, interview and cross exmaination of all parties involved in the box.
No worries mate..I don't mind answering...
My mate was on his bike alone...no pillion..so only his word..
The chav had two passengers on board who stated they were in the car, but don't recall any emergency stops or even seeing a motorcyclist. The chav driver admitted to being the driver and being on that road at that time, but denied any 'wrongdoing'..The case rested on the shoulders of the jury;
Did they believe the story of a police traffic inspector (off duty) or the driver of the other vehicle. Final result: they believed the police officer and the driver was convicted.
It can work the other way:
I was in court a few years ago with a 'fail to stop'. I chased a car for two miles, originally going to stop the driver for no seat belt. He wasn't having none of that and 'did one'. I eventually caught the vehicle, forcing it to stop and expected it to be stolen. No such luck, it was his car, but he didn't want a ticket for no seat belt!!! The case went all the way to Crown Court as the lad said he wasn't speeding etc (I was in a response car with no video). The jury found him not-guilty and allowed him to go.
Exactly 10 days later the lad was killed riding a motorcycle dangerously
. I can't help thinking if the jury had found him guilty and the judge had disqualified him, he might not have rode that motorbike and been alive today...
It's a funny old world..innit?
Street
My mate was on his bike alone...no pillion..so only his word..
The chav had two passengers on board who stated they were in the car, but don't recall any emergency stops or even seeing a motorcyclist. The chav driver admitted to being the driver and being on that road at that time, but denied any 'wrongdoing'..The case rested on the shoulders of the jury;
Did they believe the story of a police traffic inspector (off duty) or the driver of the other vehicle. Final result: they believed the police officer and the driver was convicted.
It can work the other way:
I was in court a few years ago with a 'fail to stop'. I chased a car for two miles, originally going to stop the driver for no seat belt. He wasn't having none of that and 'did one'. I eventually caught the vehicle, forcing it to stop and expected it to be stolen. No such luck, it was his car, but he didn't want a ticket for no seat belt!!! The case went all the way to Crown Court as the lad said he wasn't speeding etc (I was in a response car with no video). The jury found him not-guilty and allowed him to go.
Exactly 10 days later the lad was killed riding a motorcycle dangerously
. I can't help thinking if the jury had found him guilty and the judge had disqualified him, he might not have rode that motorbike and been alive today... It's a funny old world..innit?
Street
Dibble said:
And possibly now a few on duty ones, if it's been put on the intelligence system...
What exactly gets put on the "intelligence system" and can you find out if you are on it under the data protection act? Can it work in your favour - like "he's a great guy - let him off all transgressions" etc ?
Beggarall said:
Dibble said:
And possibly now a few on duty ones, if it's been put on the intelligence system...
What exactly gets put on the "intelligence system" and can you find out if you are on it under the data protection act? Can it work in your favour - like "he's a great guy - let him off all transgressions" etc ?
quite a lot
in fact a lot more than you think
Intelligence reports can be submitted until the cows come home. Whether they are put on as forces intel, system and whether they remain there is another matter. It is largely down to how they are run. There are rules to abide by. Anthing that is placed on an electronic must be accurate, up to date etc...
To answer one question - No you cannot find out what is held on you. Scenario:
Burglar: Are Officers checking my bail conditions?
Police: No, not at the moment.
Burglar: Great!
There is also the facility to put "information" markers on PNC, if e.g. the vehicle is used in crime. Driven like a nobber, is not something which can be out on.
Bottom line is, if you are driving on the same stretch of road, regularly at high speed, and you've caught the attention of the local BiB, I'd ease off. Traffic Officers can be very persistent.
To answer one question - No you cannot find out what is held on you. Scenario:
Burglar: Are Officers checking my bail conditions?
Police: No, not at the moment.
Burglar: Great!
There is also the facility to put "information" markers on PNC, if e.g. the vehicle is used in crime. Driven like a nobber, is not something which can be out on.
Bottom line is, if you are driving on the same stretch of road, regularly at high speed, and you've caught the attention of the local BiB, I'd ease off. Traffic Officers can be very persistent.
bluepolarbear said:
Question is, what COULD he have done as he wasn't on duty? Could he have reported me? My word against his? Could he arrest me? It shook me up as I pass Lancs HQ EVERY DAY so must pass quite a few off duty BiBs!!
Ignore him, not uniform, no obligation to stop
Absolutely true bluepolarbear...
However, he would be in uniform when he visited the guys house the next evening...
Street
Streetcop said:
Absolutely true bluepolarbear...
However, he would be in uniform when he visited the guys house the next evening...
Street
Are Bib allowed to run PNC checks at will even for incidents when they are off duty? Isn't that open to abuse.. allowing you to find out the address of any car you like when you are off duty?
ok ignore that question - just read the Real Plod thread...
So justifying a PNC check of someone who 'upset' a BiB off duty isnt too difficult?
>> Edited by r32 on Wednesday 14th July 09:59
Nah..nothing wrong with that...
So long as the BiB puts the information in his pocket book and justifies the reasons..no problem. It's intelligence gathering at it's best. Afterall, half the BiB are off duty while the other half are on duty..the more eyes and ears..etc etc...
I've seen many incidents whilst off duty that have required me to visit the person when on duty...either to prosecute or verbally warn. It all boils down to professional pride...
If I see someone driving dangerously while I'm off duty and do nothing about it, not even fill in an intelligence sheet when next at work, I'm not doing my job properly. Other Bib might disagree,but this is MHO. If the driver, next week, month, year kills himself or someone else by the manner of his driving and I'd ignored it earlier...I would have a little bit of guilt..(I would imagine)..
Street
>> Edited by Streetcop on Wednesday 14th July 10:31
So long as the BiB puts the information in his pocket book and justifies the reasons..no problem. It's intelligence gathering at it's best. Afterall, half the BiB are off duty while the other half are on duty..the more eyes and ears..etc etc...
I've seen many incidents whilst off duty that have required me to visit the person when on duty...either to prosecute or verbally warn. It all boils down to professional pride...
If I see someone driving dangerously while I'm off duty and do nothing about it, not even fill in an intelligence sheet when next at work, I'm not doing my job properly. Other Bib might disagree,but this is MHO. If the driver, next week, month, year kills himself or someone else by the manner of his driving and I'd ignored it earlier...I would have a little bit of guilt..(I would imagine)..
Street
>> Edited by Streetcop on Wednesday 14th July 10:31
Streetcop said:
The jury found him not-guilty and allowed him to go.
Exactly 10 days later the lad was killed riding a motorcycle dangerously
I suppose it's not the done thing to send a copy of the local newspaper report of his demise to the members of the jury.
Marcos Maniac said:
Dibble said:
And possibly now a few on duty ones, if it's been put on the intelligence system...
quite a lot
in fact a lot more than you think
You can find out a limited amount under the Data Protection Act, but basically all it gets is any convictions, arrests etc. A lot of companies use it before employing new personnel.
I've used it myself before because cheshire bib were stopping me so often (Once a month for 2 years, refer to previous threads), but nothing came up as no convictions, etc and none of the stops came under PACE. the bib are allowed to keep most info secret under crime prevention and detection clauses in the DPA.
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